Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[ed1971]

Sorry, communication error on my part.

1800 to Preston (1851 ex-Wigan) is booked a 142 on Saturday's. It's a Blackpool driver that works it, who aren't currently competent on 319's as I understand it. Conductors at Blackpool are competent 319's.

So what ed1971 saw is correct and booked to happen, no shortages or issues with 319's.

Thanks for clarifying this. I have made another observation; when the timetable changed on 5th October, for the first Saturday the 10th, the 1716 departure off Liverpool Lime Street for Blackpool North ran as published using a DMU. However, from the following Saturday, the service was a 319 and only ran as far as Preston.

 

[Loop & Link]

It was STP'd for three weekends due to engineering work

 

[Bevan Price]

The 319's don't seem to like wet weather too.

True, they are very prone to slipping in wet weather. However, some drivers seem better than others in minimising this slipping. I had a Lancashire Day Ranger on Saturday (7 Nov.) and included 4 rides on Class 319s.

However the slipping problems were made much worse by NR's insistence on running brake tests (RBT) after every reversal or driver change. Some Liverpool - Preston services seem to change drivers at Wigan North Western. In consequence, they have to do a RBT on the 1 in 109 climb out of Wigan towards Preston.

Very bad idea in wet weather. Speed fell to about 35 mph after the RBT, and then the 319 tottered and slipped most of the way to Euxton Balshaw Lane, not exceeding 57 mph. I suggest that NR needs to allow some discretion about where, when or if RBTs need to occur in bad weather conditions.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

However the slipping problems were made much worse by NR's insistence on running brake tests (RBT) after every reversal or driver change.

Is that across all TOCs/FOCs, routes and classes?

 

[darylyates17]

Apologies if this has already been discussed but i wonder if the next Northern franchise will receive more 319 units in the future as they're going to need more when other lines are electrified

 

[northwichcat]

Apologies if this has already been discussed but i wonder if the next Northern franchise will receive more 319 units in the future as they're going to need more when other lines are electrified

The next Northern franchise will be announced in the coming weeks (possibly Fri 4th December) so we can expect to find out what their rolling stock plans are soon. There's also reports Porterbrook will only let them keep the 323s until 2018 so as well as the other electrified lines there's 323 replacements to consider.

One rumour circulating was Northern would get some 350s for the Regional Express services and as 323 replacement.

Another more recent one is the new 387 order: http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2015/11/03/update-new-class-387-order-details will go to Great Northern and the 19 x 365s which haven't been secured by GWR will go to Northern.

 

[D365]

Another more recent one is the new 387 order: http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2015/11/03/update-new-class-387-order-details will go to Great Northern and the 19 x 365s which haven't been secured by GWR will go to Northern.

Surely it would be more prudent for the 20 additional 387s to go to GWR (as a common fleet), and for the 365s they are currently due to receive to be transferred to Northern instead.

 

[andyb2706]

Surely it would be more prudent for the 20 additional 387s to go to GWR (as a common fleet), and for the 365s they are currently due to receive to be transferred to Northern instead.

You're talking common sense there....but, since when has the railways been run on common sense?

 

[Jonny]

Will class 365s fit the loading gauge on Northern (or is that just the diesel equivalents (classes 165 and 166))?

 

[northwichcat]

Will class 365s fit the loading gauge on Northern (or is that just the diesel equivalents (classes 165 and 166))?

323s have carriages 23.4m in length and 2.80m wide

365s have carriages 20.1m (DMCO only) or 20.0m in length and are 2.81m wide.

I imagine being a few mm closer to the platform would be compensated by the shorter carriages.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Will class 365s fit the loading gauge on Northern (or is that just the diesel equivalents (classes 165 and 166))?

I do think that sometimes more is made of the 165/166 gauge issue than really needs to be. Correct me if I'm wrong but The "Network Turbos" in theory shouldn't be much bigger than 323s or indeed 333s, all of the above being 23m carriages wide enough for 3+2 seating.

 

[geoffk]

So the gauging issue with class 165 and 166 stock is the result of its 23m length, while classes 365 and 465 are 20m. The body shells must be the same width. This seems to restrict the diesel version to former GW and GC lines.

 

[swt_passenger]

So the gauging issue with class 165 and 166 stock is the result of its 23m length, while classes 365 and 465 are 20m. The body shells must be the same width. This seems to restrict the diesel version to former GW and GC lines.

It doesn't 'restrict them to GW lines', in any case there are current parts of the Western where they cannot go. But they go to Gatwick hourly. They were cleared from Redhill to Selhurst depot a few years back. They were also cleared without difficulty from Guildford to Basingstoke via Woking at around the same time.

It is NOT a significant problem, it is manageable.

 

[northwichcat]

So the gauging issue with class 165 and 166 stock is the result of its 23m length, while classes 365 and 465 are 20m. The body shells must be the same width. This seems to restrict the diesel version to former GW and GC lines.

There's very little difference between the 165/6s and the 323s in terms of dimensions, yet the 323s work fine on lines which aren't former GW/GC.

 

[Wolfie]

There's very little difference between the 165/6s and the 323s in terms of dimensions, yet the 323s work fine on some lines which aren't former GW/GC where the necessary gauging checks have been undertaken.

Modified for complete accuracy (in bold)

The orignal text could, to a pedant, be taken as implying that 323s can work on all lines (which are wired) which aren't former GW/GC

 

[Class 170101]

Another more recent one is the new 387 order: http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2015/11/03/update-new-class-387-order-details will go to Great Northern and the 19 x 365s which haven't been secured by GWR will go to Northern.

Surely it would be more prudent for the 20 additional 387s to go to GWR (as a common fleet), and for the 365s they are currently due to receive to be transferred to Northern instead.

I would say either is viable but tend to agree that a common fleet on GW would save training and maintenance of workers for Class 319s. Note Crossrail will be providing most Relief Line services but on GN the equivalent services will still be provided by the GN franchise holder.

 

[deltic08]

Surely it would be more prudent for the 20 additional 387s to go to GWR (as a common fleet), and for the 365s they are currently due to receive to be transferred to Northern instead.

How about Northern 323s to Birmingham, 110mph TPEx 350/4s to Midland, 10 377s from Thameslink for Manchester-Crewe/Liverpool-MIA, 20 387s to TPEx for Glasgow/Edinburgh/Windermere/Blackpool-Manchester Airport with an order of 10 more for strengthening and 319s for Manchester-Glossop displaced by 377s on Liverpool-MIA fasts?

 

[ScotGG]

How about Northern 323s to Birmingham, 110mph TPEx 350/4s to Midland, 10 377s from Thameslink for Manchester-Crewe/Liverpool-MIA, 20 387s to TPEx for Glasgow/Edinburgh/Windermere/Blackpool-Manchester Airport with an order of 10 more for strengthening and 319s for Manchester-Glossop displaced by 377s on Liverpool-MIA fasts?

Where do southeastern fit into this? Crying out for new stock, serving areas of the country with highest population growth and planned housing and no new trains for 10 years, HS1 excluded, which serves a fraction of new development areas anyway, and even that is full to bursting now.

 

[D365]

"But the South already has new trains"

Good job the IKF and Essex Thamesside franchises aren't seeking additional rolling stock then isn't it :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where do southeastern fit into this? Crying out for new stock, serving areas of the country with highest population growth and planned housing and no new trains for 10 years, HS1 excluded, which serves a fraction of new development areas anyway, and even that is full to bursting now.

How about taking a certain politician's phrase "We are all in it together" to heart and also the old adage "What is good for the goose is good for the gander", let us now apply the reasoning issued in posting submissions by those knowledgeable forum members in "The Beautiful South" to those in the land of "HS3 and "Newton Heath's Finest" and suggest the cascading of old units that will be made available when other areas receive their new rolling stock, supplemented with as many of the "Shooter Incubus" units that Vivarail can lay their hands upon to convert.

Cynical, moi ?

 

[childwallblues]

319379 is now in service with Northern being noted on the Liverpool Lime Street to Preston service yesterday. That just leaves 319366 to enter service.

 

[AM9]

319379 is now in service with Northern being noted on the Liverpool Lime Street to Preston service yesterday. That just leaves 319366 to enter service.

There'll be plenty more available in time for the Manchester Victoria-Bolton-Preston services when the wires are up.

 

[northwichcat]

How about Northern 323s to Birmingham, 110mph TPEx 350/4s to Midland, 10 377s from Thameslink for Manchester-Crewe/Liverpool-MIA, 20 387s to TPEx for Glasgow/Edinburgh/Windermere/Blackpool-Manchester Airport with an order of 10 more for strengthening and 319s for Manchester-Glossop displaced by 377s on Liverpool-MIA fasts?

It's understood the acceleration on 319s is too poor to run either the Glossop or Stoke services. The 323s would either have to be replaced by something newer or something re-engineered.

 

[Wolfie]

How about taking a certain politician's phrase "We are all in it together" to heart and also the old adage "What is good for the goose is good for the gander", let us now apply the reasoning issued in posting submissions by those knowledgeable forum members in "The Beautiful South" to those in the land of "HS3 and "Newton Heath's Finest" and suggest the cascading of old units that will be made available when other areas receive their new rolling stock, supplemented with as many of the "Shooter Incubus" units that Vivarail can lay their hands upon to convert.

Cynical, moi ?

I have no desire to engage in another North-South spat but....

IF you wish to take such a stance the obvious retort is when is the North going to actually start paying for all (something, anything?) of these enhancements as opposed to yet again sticking out a begging bowl?

Bleating on about getting handdowns, demanding major enhancements and all while simultaneously bleeding money hand over fist is getting more than a bit tedious!

The backlash if Northern subsidies go up at the very same time as London fares once the TfL block grant is removed will be spectacular to see! Suffice to say London/South Eastern Tories will do their damnedest to change nice Gideon's views by rather strongly stressing the potential damage to his own leadership aspirations.....

Realistic, moi? Never forget that he who pays the piper.....

 

[northwichcat]

One thing worth considering is the introduction of 40 additional brand new Desiro carriages to the TPE franchise caused the TPE subsidy per passenger mile to fall but the introduction of 40 additional brand new Desiro carriages to the LM franchise caused the LM subsidy per passenger mile to increase.

 

[Greybeard33]

It's understood the acceleration on 319s is too poor to run either the Glossop or Stoke services. The 323s would either have to be replaced by something newer or something re-engineered.

From the Network Rail Northern RUS Generation 2, May 2011, p119:

On the Hadfield line conversion of the two high-peak
hour services to four-car operation would solve the
capacity issues. However, this requires rolling stock
that can keep the timings of the Class 323s currently
on the route or possible infrastructure works in the
Dinting area to speed up the services. The latter is
currently being investigated to see whether this would
allow the slower Class 321 type rolling stock to be
used and still allow the timetable on the route to work.

"Class 321 type" would include 319s. Has the investigation since concluded that the infrastructure works are not a feasible solution?

 

[swt_passenger]

Where do southeastern fit into this? Crying out for new stock...

'Brand new' or just additional?
Still due to get 25 x 4 car Electrostars (variant to be decided) from Southern in 2017 aren't they?

 

[Aldaniti]

IF you wish to take such a stance the obvious retort is when is the North going to actually start paying for all (something, anything?) of these enhancements as opposed to yet again sticking out a begging bowl?

When we've paid off all of the debt incurred when we bailed out City bankers.... .

 

[The Ham]

One thing worth considering is the introduction of 40 additional brand new Desiro carriages to the TPE franchise caused the TPE subsidy per passenger mile to fall but the introduction of 40 additional brand new Desiro carriages to the LM franchise caused the LM subsidy per passenger mile to increase.

That may have something to do with LM having too many silly priced (cheap) tickets when it is unlikely to attract enough people to cover the cost of the discount. (i.e. rail tickets at half price would mean LM would need to attract one extra person for each person who would have traveled anyway but can now travel for less money).

 

[northwichcat]

That may have something to do with LM having too many silly priced (cheap) tickets when it is unlikely to attract enough people to cover the cost of the discount. (i.e. rail tickets at half price would mean LM would need to attract one extra person for each person who would have traveled anyway but can now travel for less money).

Without the cheaper LM only tickets more people would likely use Virgin. LM don't need to share revenue on LM only tickets.

Both Northern and TPE have managed to decrease their subsides at the same time as getting extra carriages so it seems up here there's a general trend of more seats = more revenue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the Network Rail Northern RUS Generation 2, May 2011, p119:

"Class 321 type" would include 319s. Has the investigation since concluded that the infrastructure works are not a feasible solution?

The date of that document corresponds with the time Scotrail were releasing their 322s so I wonder if that investigation work was actually taken up after it was decided the 322s would go to Northern Rail East not Northern Rail West. Northern Rail West had originally been supposed to get 23 x new 3 car EMUs in time for the December 12 timetable change in exchange for releasing their 17 x 323s to LM, so 5 x additional 4 car EMUs would have provided a similar increase in electric rolling stock for the west side. (There was also talk about adding on to the new EMU order for Yorkshire before the idea was dropped.)

Eversholt don't have any 319s but they provide stats for 318s, 320s, 321s and 322s which all seem to have similar figures for maximum acceleration so I'd agree the result should have been applicable to 319s as well as 321s: https://www.eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet-portfolio