Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

Good stuff, nw-sparks!

13 diagrams for the fleet of now 18 units (assuming 319378 has/is about to enter traffic). With all the discussion about other non-319 issues, I've lost track of whether the Liverpool-Warringtons were confirmed as going 319 from December, plus the Manchester Airport shuttle. If so, that would push diagrams up to 16 from the 20, plus presumably at least one hot spare.

Northern having been going on about more DMUs available from December so they must be planning to use more 319s by then.

 

[Loop & Link]

Bank Quay's are 319's today.

16 diagrams for 20 units sounds right - 2 or 3 on exam, and a spare unit? I would say it would make sense to put the spare 319 at Lime St, due to constraints of getting units on and off Allerton of a day, but there isn't really room.

Re Diagram P2 - courtesy of NW Sparks it carries on and does 1702 South Parkway-Preston, shunts to Preston C.S or Ribble Jn, 1930 Preston-Lime St then 2147 Lime St-Preston and disposed of in the sidings.

 

[WatcherZero]

3 diagrams this month 4 in december scheduled. 10-12 diesel units will have been freed for strenghening by the end of the year.

 

[Class 170101]

Suggest that either 2F60 attaches to 2F62 arrival with 2F53 running as an 8 car back to Lime Street with W4 Diagram thence to Allerton Depot.
or
Top train working is employed and 5F66 runs as an eight car back to Lime Street.

 

[Loop & Link]

It does 2F53 is an 8-car then runs to Allerton

5F66 runs via Golborne for route knowledge purposes

 

[ianhr]

Of course they are still on diesel timings and there is a lot of layover at Lime Street,

The 17.30 from Preston was doing 100mph south of Standish this afternoon, hence layovers at every stop on the Liverpool-Preston semi-fasts. Although they seem to have their detractors among the DMU enthusiasts there is no comparison in performance.

When will new timings come into effect?

Also, on a Saturday at least, the 4-car units seem remarkably well filled so either there has been an increase in passenger numbers or the previous 2-car 142, 150 and 156 workings must have been grossly overcrowded.

 

[Loop & Link]

Oh yes Saturday's were always overcrowded going into Liverpool from Wigan for example it'd be standing room from St Helens Central sometimes and then leaving people behind after Huyton!

In terms of recused timings, I think Lime St-Preston could easily be done in 50-55 mins.

Interesting the pre-319 services never used to keep to time Euxton-Wigan they would lose 1-2 mins because they just weren't fast enough for the schedule, so 319's are keeping to the times, 75 vs 100mph is a bit of a difference!

 

[childwallblues]

Diagrams look good to me . 319365 was on W4 yesterday.
Does anybody know what the emergency engineering was on the Chat Moss yesterday?

 

[nw-sparks]

Re Diagram P2 - courtesy of NW Sparks it carries on and does 1702 South Parkway-Preston, shunts to Preston C.S or Ribble Jn, 1930 Preston-Lime St then 2147 Lime St-Preston and disposed of in the sidings.

D'oh. How did I miss that? I see the 1702 from Parkway is incorrectly booked off platform 2, but I should have spotted it anyway.

Thanks for the help, web page has been updated.
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Diagrams look good to me . 319365 was on W4 yesterday.
Does anybody know what the emergency engineering was on the Chat Moss yesterday?

I don't think it was "emergency", the closure has been in the timetable database since July.

I'd sort of assumed it was the start of the Ordsall Chord works?
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Thanks to all for the input. Diagrams updated.

 

[Class 170101]

Still timed as 14x and 15x from December timetable change. :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Up to next franchise to rewrite the timetable.

 

[Camden]

The 17.30 from Preston was doing 100mph south of Standish this afternoon, hence layovers at every stop on the Liverpool-Preston semi-fasts. Although they seem to have their detractors among the DMU enthusiasts there is no comparison in performance.

When will new timings come into effect?

Also, on a Saturday at least, the 4-car units seem remarkably well filled so either there has been an increase in passenger numbers or the previous 2-car 142, 150 and 156 workings must have been grossly overcrowded.

Wonder if Northern are trying out in practice what is realistically achievable first?

 

[nw-sparks]

Diagrams look good to me . 319365 was on W4 yesterday.
Does anybody know what the emergency engineering was on the Chat Moss yesterday?

UPDATE:
Amongst the planned works on Sunday was the removal of the connection to MOSI, and the associated signalling. Can anyone passing that way confirm if this has happened?

Phil

 

[geoffk]

The 13 diagrams are interesting. The Warrington services, together with some peak Manchester Vic trains, make another two but there are still some journeys left over which don't fit together and I assume they interwork with other diesel services.

 

[Loop & Link]

They do - 1642/1739 to Man Vic are DMU's as they interwork with a Bank Quay and Oxford Rd, then have different work on arrival at Man Vic.

0838 Man Vic to Lime St a 150 too as it comes off a Huddersfield trip.

 

[Class 170101]

Another reason not to alter the timetable as some of the journeys in the standard hour will be slower on some hours when worked with DMUs compared to using Class 319s on other hours.

 

[northwichcat]

The 319s appear to be suffering from leaf fall problems. A number of services between Liverpool and Wigan are omitting calls due to poor rail conditions at present.

 

[JaJaWa]

The 319s appear to be suffering from leaf fall problems. A number of services between Liverpool and Wigan are omitting calls due to poor rail conditions at present.

Let's hope this winter isn't cold either! Seem to remember the doors don't work when it gets below 5°C or so - First Capital Connect ran them with multiple doors locked shut.

 

[northwichcat]

Let's hope this winter isn't cold either! Seem to remember the doors don't work when it gets below 5°C or so - First Capital Connect ran them with multiple doors locked shut.

Based on average Liverpool temperatures that would mean no early/late services from mid November until the end of March, with some days no services at all.

 

[geoffk]

why wasn't the vegetation cleared when the line was electrified? And how do/did the 319s cope on the Thameslink service?

 

[AM9]

why wasn't the vegetation cleared when the line was electrified? And how do/did the 319s cope on the Thameslink service?

They did have some problems and poor railhead conditions were sometimes given as the reason. Despite much wailing from residents living adjacent to lines, the worse areas on lines into London are regularly cleared of close overhanging vegetation, - a lot better than the NW electric lines (based on what I saw in August and September) so when Network Rail get their act together up there, problems should not be much greater than down here.

As far as cold goes, the 319s should fare no worse than the 321s used by Northern Rail, given that West Yorkshire is colder (but drier) than the plains of Lancashire and Cheshire.

 

[northwichcat]

why wasn't the vegetation cleared when the line was electrified? And how do/did the 319s cope on the Thameslink service?

Just looking at the Rainhill area on Google there's a number of trees on land near the railway belonging to both local farms and the local cricket club. Network Rail clearing trees on their land won't stop leaves getting on the line unless they find a way of preventing wind.
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As far as cold goes, the 319s should fare no worse than the 321s used by Northern Rail, given that West Yorkshire is colder (but drier) than the plains of Lancashire and Cheshire.

Careful how you use stats.

West Yorkshire may have colder temperatures on average but average overnight lows in Leeds and Doncaster in January are exactly the same as those in Liverpool, Warrington and Manchester. Each place having an average of 2oC in January. The 321s don't venture in to the coldest parts of West Yorkshire (places such as Marsden.)

Also don't forget the 321 services stop overnight, at least one 319 has to remain in service overnight. A few years back a village near the Airport recorded an overnight low of minus 17.6oC, which was the coldest recorded temperature in the UK that night.

 

[davyp]

That minus 17c was at Woodford, just under 1 mile from Poynton station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course, the matter of how the Class 319 units react to leaf fall and cold night temperatures would have been high up on the discussion agenda when Northern Rail were scheduled to receive these units...or would it not?

 

[northwichcat]

That minus 17c was at Woodford, just under 1 mile from Poynton station.

It was the closest weather station to the Airport at the time and only a few miles from the Airport. The Met Office have since closed Woodford and opened a replacement one at Rostherne.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That minus 17c was at Woodford, just under 1 mile from Poynton station.

Which, as the crow flies, is not so very miles away to the rural area where I live and I assure you it was damn cold that night near us.

 

[Loop & Link]

Sander issues on 374.

It's Scholes Tunnel and the area between Eccleston Park & Thatto Heath the conditions in the cutting can be atrocious.

 

[childwallblues]

Sander issues on 374.

It's Scholes Tunnel and the area between Eccleston Park & Thatto Heath the conditions in the cutting can be atrocious.

Yet I was on 382 on Tuesday evening and it had no problems at any point between St Helens Central and Prescot.

 

[AM9]

Yet I was on 382 on Tuesday evening and it had no problems at any point between St Helens Central and Prescot.

The leaf fall is in full flow down here now so I imagine that it is nearly over up there.
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Just looking at the Rainhill area on Google there's a number of trees on land near the railway belonging to both local farms and the local cricket club. Network Rail clearing trees on their land won't stop leaves getting on the line unless they find a way of preventing wind.

Having travelled on the chat Moss line several times this year I can say that it is far less 'leafy' than many of the London commuter routes. Yes, Olive mount and Thatto Heath are likely to see leaf falls, but nothing compared to stretches of the BML and the Portsmouth direct where mile after mile of track runs between 30-40ft high trees, often in cuttings.

Careful how you use stats.

West Yorkshire may have colder temperatures on average but average overnight lows in Leeds and Doncaster in January are exactly the same as those in Liverpool, Warrington and Manchester. Each place having an average of 2oC in January. The 321s don't venture in to the coldest parts of West Yorkshire (places such as Marsden.)

Also don't forget the 321 services stop overnight, at least one 319 has to remain in service overnight. A few years back a village near the Airport recorded an overnight low of minus 17.6oC, which was the coldest recorded temperature in the UK that night.

There are cold spots in the South-east, particularly near the Downs and Chilterns. The Chipstead Valley reached -18C in 2012 and around Chesham and Rickmansworth, conditions are regularly well below zero. Batchworth near Rickmansworth also suffers very large daily temperature variations and holds the record for England (23.8 C within 9 hours) which also puts great stresses on the permanent way. Generally leaf falls cause a period of about 3 weeks disruption and the tendency is to introduce modified timetables for those periods. The major problem with low temperature is icing on 3rd rail track (which of course won't trouble OLE in the North-west).

 

[northwichcat]

The leaf fall is in full flow down here now so I imagine that it is nearly over up there.

Northern are doing daily leaf fall warnings using the following scale: http://www.northernrail.org/news/7773

I think everyday so far it's been yellow or orange. On Tuesday they said it would be Yellow at the start of the day (low risk of problems), Wednesday and Thursday they said orange (there could be some problems.) Today is also orange.

Having travelled on the chat Moss line several times this year I can say that it is far less 'leafy' than many of the London commuter routes.

My local line goes through a forest and yesterday services were operated by a mix of 142s, 150s and 156s. There were some minor delays due to leaf fall problems but the only significant one was a service delayed by a signal problem. It seems the Chat Moss line with 319s and less trees faired badly in comparison.