Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[notadriver]

I have no idea and I did not pose that question.



I simply asked if a geared up 323 could still maintain its acceleration advantage over a 319.



So far, no one has answered that question.

A 323 is lighter than a 319 (3 vehicles) and has 8 driven axles vs only 4 for the 319 so the answer would be yes. Installed power is similar but the 323 would have the edge in the higher speed ranges thanks to its AC motors.

Porterbrook data is incorrect. The motors are 268kW each according to another source.

 

[fowler9]

Caught a 319 from Liverpool South Parkway to Lime Street on the 17:02 this evening. I noticed that first off the PIS at Parkway said it was going from platform 2 which obviously wasn't happening, it goes from 4. Second on the train the PIS didn't mention the call at Lime Street, indeed as the train approached Edge Hill on the way in it announced that we would shortly be calling at Edge Hill which of course we didn't, we passed straight through to Lime Street.

 

[AM9]

Either way, if the 319s are still there when HS2 opens, the WCML will be a bit quieter so they won't get in the way of the 390s so much.

 

[Loop & Link]

So how many of the 17 319s delivered to Allerton are diagrammed? Essentially?
3 on Liverpool-Manchester Airport?
4 on Liverpool-Wigan?
3 on Liverpool-Manchester Victoria?
3 on Liverpool-Preston?

13 from 16 (given 319377 has only been delivered)

Give two are expected on the Liverpool-Warringtons from December and another on the Manchester Airport shuttle (from when?), that would suggest still only 16 from 20 diagrammed. Hot stand-by diagrammed too?

Yep that's spot on. 2 exam units on top of that too, and a spare, I assume.

 

[DJH1971]

Yep that's spot on. 2 exam units on top of that too, and a spare, I assume.

And 319377 is now working too.

Currently on it on the way home.

 

[childwallblues]

Due to an early morning incident in the Euxton Balshaw Lane area the Liverpool to Preston services were either late or cancelled.
As a result there was an unusual sight at Lime Street of 319s being next to each other in the wrong half of the station. 319362 was at Platform 8 with the 1028 to Preston whilst 319363 was at Platform 9 with the 1039 to Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[gab]

Another 319 has arrived at Allerton tonight.
Is it 378?

 

[samj]

When did 319376 arrive? smells fresh just arrived at Preston with the 2147 ex-Liverpool.

 

[Loop & Link]

Been out and about a few weeks now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Either way, if the 319s are still there when HS2 opens, the WCML will be a bit quieter so they won't get in the way of the 390s so much.

Indeed so. I often wonder how many of the current unit classes will be operational when HS2 eventually does actually open.

 

[AM9]

Indeed so. I often wonder how many of the current unit classes will be operational when HS2 eventually does actually open.

In terms of the 319s, if they are looked after by Allerton and they don't suffer from excessive corrosion, they could last another 15 years in active service. After all, motors get refurbished and transformers are passive components; so the inverters' and switchgear's supportability may be the determining factor unless a retractioning is done in a few years.
The MKIII body design is both safety compliant and maintainable (witness the many re-purposing programmes that the HST/LHCS stock has endured).

One only has to look at how LUL has kept electric trains in very heavy continuous use for over 50 years to see what is possible. The 1973 stock is planned to be replaced in 2025 (50 years from it's actual first deployment) and it's death knell is probably partly the result of corrosion but mainly the desire to go to ATO.

By 2030, there should be some replacement Electrostars available from the south-east.

 

[northwichcat]

In terms of the 319s, if they are looked after by Allerton and they don't suffer from excessive corrosion, they could last another 15 years in active service. After all, motors get refurbished and transformers are passive components; so the inverters' and switchgear's supportability may be the determining factor unless a retractioning is done in a few years.

Someone posted previously that Porterbrook have made changes to the traction equipment alongside removing the 3rd rail equipment and apparently that is why there have been so many teething problems with introducing the 319s. Apparently Northern recruited a highly rated fitter previously employed by First Capital Connect but even he's not able to provide solutions to the problems straight away due to the change in equipment.

One only has to look at how LUL has kept electric trains in very heavy continuous use for over 50 years to see what is possible. The 1973 stock is planned to be replaced in 2025 (50 years from it's actual first deployment) and it's death knell is probably partly the result of corrosion but mainly the desire to go to ATO.

The deep level underground stock is very different to NR stock and it get's a lot more protection from the weather and isn't made to run at any real speed.

 

[AM9]

Someone posted previously that Porterbrook have made changes to the traction equipment alongside removing the 3rd rail equipment and apparently that is why there have been so many teething problems with introducing the 319s. Apparently Northern recruited a highly rated fitter previously employed by First Capital Connect but even he's not able to provide solutions to the problems straight away due to the change in equipment.

I didn't know that which maybe explains the much higher failure rate up north than has been experienced down here, despite the easier life that they are getting. I hope that Northern have a claim against Portebrook if that is proven to be the case. Various numbers of 319s have had shoes removed when they were committed to diagrams entirely south of the river, (notably the 319/2s) but I've not heard of any issues like that. There was the problem with the pantograph up being tied to the ac/DC changeover button*, which the RoSCo might have been dabbling with so they will need to fix the whole stock pretty quick before the full Chat Moss timetable starts.
* A discussion arose here following the raising of a pantograph leaving City Thameslink, finally wedging itself into the roof at Blackfriars. Can't remember the details.

The deep level underground stock is very different to NR stock and it get's a lot more protection from the weather and isn't made to run at any real speed.

That's true for the 'Tube' stock but the Metropolitan A60/A62 sub-surface stock travelled 80-90% of its journies above ground at speeds up to 60mph on track that was quite bouncy. The smaller wheels, bogies, traction system etc., were all rated for the lower speed so they were all working as hard as 100mph mainline trains' parts do in their duties. If the ex District line D78s do get introduced as DMEUs for mainline use, they will be about 40 years old so there must be an expectation that they will reach 50 before scrapping.
The MKIII LHCS/HST stock seems to cope with corrosion even when it takes a regular shower at Dawlish. Much loved by many here for different reasons, the MKIII bodyshell seems to be long lived so there's no reason to assume that the 20m long versions are much different.

 

[northwichcat]

If the ex District line D78s do get introduced as DMEUs for mainline use, they will be about 40 years old so there must be an expectation that they will reach 50 before scrapping.

I checked the 'entered service dates' of D78s the other day and the last batch entered service in 1983 so some of them only entered service the year before the prototype 3 car 150s.

Much loved by many here for different reasons, the MKIII bodyshell seems to be long lived so there's no reason to assume that the 20m long versions are much different.

Apparently the Merseyrail 507/8s are suffering from corrosion, as are some of the 150s. I think it was Tony Miles who said an unspecified ROSCO were to look at the option of withdrawing the worst 150s by 2019 opposed to carrying out the required modifications for post-2019 service if a new DMU/DEMU order for local trains gets placed.

 

[AM9]

I checked the 'entered service dates' of D78s the other day and the last batch entered service in 1983 so some of them only entered service the year before the prototype 3 car 150s.

By the time they are type approved, cleared for mainline routes and manufactured in any quantity, say 2018, the oldest will be 38 years old and the very youngest just 35 years. They will be in service for at least 10 years, maybe 15. So like the A60 stock, they will be over 50 years old, with a three year rest in sidings at present.

Apparently the Merseyrail 507/8s are suffering from corrosion, as are some of the 150s. I think it was Tony Miles who said an unspecified ROSCO were to look at the option of withdrawing the worst 150s by 2019 opposed to carrying out the required modifications for post-2019 service if a new DMU/DEMU order for local trains gets placed.

The class 319s are between 8 and 13 years newer than the 507/508s and have not served near a salt atmosphere such as Liverpool to Southport or the Wirral. Furthermore, they are not MKIII designs.
The 150s are 3-4 years older than all but the earliest 319s. Moreover, they are DMUs which it is acknowledged have a shorter service life owing to their engines, based on '60s era marine designs. Refurbishing an 'ancient' diesel engine to life extend beyond much beyond 35 years is not a sensible option.
As I said above, motors are refurbished, transformers are passive and inverters/switchgear can be maintained to their point of obsolescence. This is a well proven path for motors and switchgear where EMUs originally built by the Southern Railway were kept in full running order for over 60 years by refurbishing motors with new bearings, new commutator segments and rewinds. If the basic design is good, (the 319s have GEC G315 motors which appear to have a relatively long life), the mechanics and structure can provide serviceable rolling stock. Then there are the passenger accomodation cosmetics. When the cash runs out, innovation steps in. I've travelled on the Northern 319s and to be honest, they aren't at all bad, and would still be accepted on busy routes in the south-east alongside 10 year old Electrostars which in some respects, don't seem to age that well.

 

[Class377/5]

I didn't know that which maybe explains the much higher failure rate up north than has been experienced down here, despite the easier life that they are getting. I hope that Northern have a claim against Portebrook if that is proven to be the case. Various numbers of 319s have had shoes removed when they were committed to diagrams entirely south of the river, (notably the 319/2s) but I've not heard of any issues like that. There was the problem with the pantograph up being tied to the ac/DC changeover button*, which the RoSCo might have been dabbling with so they will need to fix the whole stock pretty quick before the full Chat Moss timetable starts.
* A discussion arose here following the raising of a pantograph leaving City Thameslink, finally wedging itself into the roof at Blackfriars. Can't remember the details.

Er if shoes aren't on then trains can't be used south of the river. Connex/Southern (can't remember which) removed the pantograph.

The City Thameslink was human error not unit fault.

That's true for the 'Tube' stock but the Metropolitan A60/A62 sub-surface stock travelled 80-90% of its journies above ground at speeds up to 60mph on track that was quite bouncy. The smaller wheels, bogies, traction system etc., were all rated for the lower speed so they were all working as hard as 100mph mainline trains' parts do in their duties. If the ex District line D78s do get introduced as DMEUs for mainline use, they will be about 40 years old so there must be an expectation that they will reach 50 before scrapping.
The MKIII LHCS/HST stock seems to cope with corrosion even when it takes a regular shower at Dawlish. Much loved by many here for different reasons, the MKIII bodyshell seems to be long lived so there's no reason to assume that the 20m long versions are much different.

Its often overlooked that two thirds of the Underground isn't actually Underground. The Bakerloo's 72ts now looks to be nearer 60 when it gets replaced. And that's requiring multiple refits and some rebuiling too.

Oh and don't forget that the A stock was actually restricted in service due to issue with age being down rated performance.

 

[AM9]

Er if shoes aren't on then trains can't be used south of the river. Connex/Southern (can't remember which) removed the pantograph.

Duh! Slaps forehead, - of course.

The City Thameslink was human error not unit fault.

Although the primary reason was human error, wasn't there a discussion about the pantograph up/down button effectivelyalso being the ac-DC changeover as well, liable to create errors? Maybe I remember that a bit wrong?

Its often overlooked that two thirds of the Underground isn't actually Underground. The Bakerloo's 72ts now looks to be nearer 60 when it gets replaced. And that's requiring multiple refits and some rebuiling too.

Oh and don't forget that the A stock was actually restricted in service due to issue with age being down rated performance.

Also, virtually all of the Underground stock spends the nights outside, apart from the odd units parked in underground terminii sidings and the Waterloo & City units. When viewed through the eyes of a typical London tourist/visitor, the underground usually appears clean and dry when it pops into a subterranean station. As you say, much of the running is on the surface and it is expected to run a heavy service irrespective of the weather over infrastructure that at times is quite well trodden.

 

[northwichcat]

By the time they are type approved, cleared for mainline routes and manufactured in any quantity, say 2018, the oldest will be 38 years old and the very youngest just 35 years.

While I know the conversions won't happen overnight I thought Vivarail were saying they could get new trains in service much faster than proper new build stock. It's expected new build for Northern could be delivered in 2018 and 2019 to allow Pacers to be withdrawn by the December 2019 timetable change.

 

[JohnElliott]

Although the primary reason was human error, wasn't there a discussion about the pantograph up/down button effectively also being the ac-DC changeover as well, liable to create errors? Maybe I remember that a bit wrong?

I don't know what the situation is now, but when they were new my recollection is they had three buttons: 'Pantograph up', 'Select AC' and 'Pantograph down/Select DC'.

 

[Camden]

Also, virtually all of the Underground stock spends the nights outside, apart from the odd units parked in underground terminii sidings and the Waterloo & City units. When viewed through the eyes of a typical London tourist/visitor, the underground usually appears clean and dry when it pops into a subterranean station. As you say, much of the running is on the surface and it is expected to run a heavy service irrespective of the weather over infrastructure that at times is quite well trodden.

When it comes to London v "the North" I think there are some lines that people like to believe, as if Londoners ride around brand new trains renewed every five minutes, trains which at the end of a day's work go to put their feet up in front of a warm fire with a cup of train cocoa.

The A stock trains were 50 years old when they were taken out of service. One thing people don't think about is when London generates over a billion journeys per year but still has trains from the 70s, isn't there perhaps some connection between this and the country's need to heavily subsidise travel in areas outside the capital.

 

[northwichcat]

When it comes to London v "the North" I think there are some lines that people like to believe, as if Londoners ride around brand new trains renewed every five minutes, trains which at the end of a day's work go to put their feet up in front of a warm fire with a cup of train cocoa.

The A stock trains were 50 years old when they were taken out of service. One thing people don't think about is when London generates over a billion journeys per year but still has trains from the 70s, isn't there perhaps some connection between this and the country's need to heavily subsidise travel in areas outside the capital.

As has been mentioned numerous times electric stock is expected to last longer than diesel stock. Merseyrail passengers seem happier with 1970s electric stock than Northern Rail passengers who mostly get 142s and 150s, yet from the Anglia ITT thread it seems certain people are unhappy that the 321s aren't set to be replaced by the next franchise even though they won't be life expired during the course of the next franchise.

Having been to London last week I enjoyed travelling around cheaply on TfL services (including the Underground.) I made a zone 2 only journey at peak time on the Underground for just £1.70. I got a brand new S-Stock train, the service was every 2-3 minutes and I got a seat for my entire journey. If you compare that to an equivalent journey on Metrolink (Sale to Altrincham) that would cost you £2.20 at peak times (30% more), the frequency is every 6 minutes and I wouldn't bet on getting a seat and even if you did it's a lot less comfortable than the seats on the S-Stock.

 

[Cletus]

Article + picture gallery
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/new-23m-train-maintenance-depot-10256075

A new train maintenance depot has been unveiled in Allerton after a £23m upgrade by Network Rail.

The revamp is to enable the site to handle a new fleet of electric trains as part of the electrification of Northern rail services, including the busy Liverpool to Manchester link.

A fleet of 20 Northern Rail electric trains, which are due to be in place at the depot by December, will provide 6.7m additional seats a year on routes between Liverpool, Manchester, Wigan, Preston and Warrington.

There are plans for the site to eventually be able to cope with up to 100 trains.

Situated near Liverpool South Parkway station, Network Rail took control of the depot in 2011, transforming it from its near derelict state to a cutting-edge maintenance facility, servicing Northern Rail’s fleet of diesel trains.

As part of its North West Electrification Programme, Network Rail then committed to a further package of improvements at Allerton, re-electrifying the depot after it was de-electrified in 2009, to accommodate Northern’s electric trains.
Martin Frobisher, route managing director for Network Rail, said: “The electrification of Allerton depot is an important part of our Railway Upgrade Plan with Network Rail investing over £1bn to improve rail services across the North.

“By electrifying routes between key towns and cities, passengers will benefit from bigger, better and more environmentally-friendly trains.

“The improvements at Allerton mean these trains can now be housed and maintained to help deliver these benefits.”

Welcoming the re-electrification of the Allerton train maintenance depot, Northern Rail’s managing director Alex Hynes said: “Creating a Northern Powerhouse of jobs, investment and prosperity is a key objective of the Government’s long term economic plan.

“Northern is proud to be playing a key part in bringing this to life. By introducing 20 Northern Electrics trains we are improving connectivity across the North and providing much needed extra capacity on some of the UK’s busiest routes.”

He added: “Network Rail’s support through the improvement and extension of Allerton depot is vital.

“It means that we are not only equipped to maintain the electric trains we already have in service, but we are able to introduce even more in the coming months.”

Work on the depot started in 2014 and the improvements have been delivered in three phases, with phases one and two now complete.

These included the electrification and extension of the existing train shed to accommodate the new, longer electrified trains, new depot protection system to safeguard staff, modernisation/expansion of the existing maintenance ‘pit’ to provide improved access to trains, and installation of more than a mile of new/re-conditioned track.

Phase three is now underway to improve the depot’s capacity, enabling it to stable up to 100 trains.

 

[AM9]

As has been mentioned numerous times electric stock is expected to last longer than diesel stock. Merseyrail passengers seem happier with 1970s electric stock than Northern Rail passengers who mostly get 142s and 150s, ....

You are comparing apples with oranges. Merseyside passengers might be less happy with diesel stock and Northern passengers are receiving late '80s/early '90s EMUs which as far as I hear, most passengers are quite satisfied with, (not that passengers normally say anything unprompted unless it is to complain).

... yet from the Anglia ITT thread it seems certain people are unhappy that the 321s aren't set to be replaced by the next franchise even though they won't be life expired during the course of the next franchise.

Posters on rail-interest boards are not representative of most passengers. Once again, if asked if they would like something better/newer, than most would say yes, but they wouldn't initiate such a discussion as generally, provided the trains run on time, they don't care.

Having been to London last week I enjoyed travelling around cheaply on TfL services (including the Underground.) I made a zone 2 only journey at peak time on the Underground for just £1.70. I got a brand new S-Stock train, the service was every 2-3 minutes and I got a seat for my entire journey. If you compare that to an equivalent journey on Metrolink (Sale to Altrincham) that would cost you £2.20 at peak times (30% more), the frequency is every 6 minutes and I wouldn't bet on getting a seat and even if you did it's a lot less comfortable than the seats on the S-Stock.

There's no getting away from it, London has a very large dependency on metro rail travel and both businesses and council tax payers seem prepared to pay for it. The consequence is that London has for over a century, had a world-class metro system.
GMPTE seems much less interested in metro heavy rail travel so they spend less and get a poorer service. Something that a mayoral election could address. Liverpool on the other hand seems to recognise the need to provide as best metro services that can be accommodated.
In terms of comfort, the S7s and S8s have very hard seats, whereas the Northern 142s and 150s that I have experienced this year have slightly better offerings. A few weeks ago I travelled from Manchester Victoria to Hebden Bridge on a 142 with bus type seats. Clearly it wansn't the best but it was better than the S7/8 offering for a 45min. journey into London.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As the thread title is "319 cascade to Northern", there have been a number of shall we say "geographically off-thread" posts beginning to appear recently on this thread...

I am sure there are other threads available...or if not, let someone start a suitable one.

 

[AM9]

As the thread title is "319 cascade to Northern", there have been a number of shall we say "geographically off-thread" posts beginning to appear recently on this thread...

I am sure there are other threads available...or if not, let someone start a suitable one.

I agree that the conversation has drifted onto other EMUs Paul. The references to LU stock has arisen out of comments about the life expectancy of EMUs so it was relevant as a comparison with the 319s. The 142, 150 and D78 discussion seems to have grown from that.
I don't agree that discussion about 319 operation in their native environment (i.e. Thameslink) is OT as it has a major bearing on their current re-deployment.

 

[northwichcat]

I agree that the conversation has drifted onto other EMUs Paul. The references to LU stock has arisen out of comments about the life expectancy of EMUs so it was relevant as a comparison with the 319s. The 142, 150 and D78 discussion seems to have grown from that.
I don't agree that discussion about 319 operation in their native environment (i.e. Thameslink) is OT as it has a major bearing on their current re-deployment.

The reason I brought up Merseyside is because the type of trains in operation in Merseyside are overall quite similar to what's running services in London. Merseyside gets 507s/508s (similar to 313s), 319s (obviously), modern Desiros and 158s. Perhaps the one difference is less modern EMUs and older DMUs in Merseyside.

Comfort is subjective. The seating on the ex-LM and ex-ATN 150s at Northern is the same type of seating as on the 319s. A lot of people seem to find that seating style cramped and not that comfortable unless it's a lightly loaded service. It's also worth remembering in most cases newer seats are less likely to have faults or be worn out - that is the case with some of the Northern 142 seating. All of the LU trains I've travelled on have had more comfortable seats than certain equivalent metro systems in Germany.

 

[AM9]

The reason I brought up Merseyside is because the type of trains in operation in Merseyside are overall quite similar to what's running services in London. Merseyside gets 507s/508s (similar to 313s), 319s (obviously), modern Desiros and 158s. Perhaps the one difference is less modern EMUs and older DMUs in Merseyside.

I've travelled in 150s on FGW, LM and Northern. The seating can vary a lot from quite comfortable, (FGW) to very cramped and uncomfortable (Manchester Victoria to Preston). The 319s I've travelled on (all sub-classes with all types of seats including the transferred Northern 319/3s) are generally better than the LM/Northern 150s which don't have a lot of legroom in some positions. On a recent journey from Southport to Central on a 507/508 I found quite comfortable despite it being a metro journey, (equivalent to a Welwyn North to Moorgate ride). That proves that you don't need a shiny new train for comfort and the obverse also applies, (just look in here in a year's time when there are howls of complaint about what Thameslink travellers will get for the next 25 years).

Comfort is subjective. The seating on the ex-LM and ex-ATN 150s at Northern is the same type of seating as on the 319s. A lot of people seem to find that seating style cramped and not that comfortable unless it's a lightly loaded service. It's also worth remembering in most cases newer seats are less likely to have faults or be worn out - that is the case with some of the Northern 142 seating. All of the LU trains I've travelled on have had more comfortable seats than certain equivalent metro systems in Germany.

The LM/Northern 150s I've been on had similar seating layouts to the 319s but there were some positions that had very little knee-room, something that I have difficulties. Down here, newer seats don't always fare well. The padding in some of the 5-10 year old Electrostars is sagging such that the metal frames can be felt. Maybe the new firmer seats, (377/6&7 and 387/1) will last a bit longer, (otherwise the GWML commuters will have a moan next year about their 'new' trains having worn-out seats).
LU is almost unique in upholstering the seats in all their trains. Sometimes there is little padding, but elsewhere, plastic (New York Subway, Madrid Metro, Rome Metro) is the norm or even stainless steel, (Hong Kong MTR), all being designed for maximum life and minimum cleaning.

 

[geoffk]

3 on Liverpool-Manchester Airport
4 on Liverpool-Wigan
3 on Liverpool-Manchester Victoria
3 on Liverpool-Preston

Of course they are still on diesel timings and there is a lot of layover at Lime Street, especially on the Man Airport service, so maybe some interworking will be possible, saving a unit.

 

[nw-sparks]

3 on Liverpool-Manchester Airport
4 on Liverpool-Wigan
3 on Liverpool-Manchester Victoria
3 on Liverpool-Preston

I have put a rough sketch of the thirteen diagrams on my web site at

http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/diagrams-15-10.html

Take a look and see what you think. Of course, they won't apply today with Chat Moss closed.

Phil

 

[158722]

I have put a rough sketch of the thirteen diagrams on my web site at

http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/diagrams-15-10.html

Take a look and see what you think. Of course, they won't apply today with Chat Moss closed.

Phil

Good stuff, nw-sparks!

13 diagrams for the fleet of now 18 units (assuming 319378 has/is about to enter traffic). With all the discussion about other non-319 issues, I've lost track of whether the Liverpool-Warringtons were confirmed as going 319 from December, plus the Manchester Airport shuttle. If so, that would push diagrams up to 16 from the 20, plus presumably at least one hot spare.