Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[DJH1971]

Maybe they can't stand high humidity?

Probably explains why the 16:16 LIV to MIA service today has been cancelled.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Probably explains why the 16:16 LIV to MIA service today has been cancelled.

According to information I received that was cancelled because of "the failure of 142001 and 142039"

 

[northwichcat]

According to information I received that was cancelled because of "the failure of 142001 and 142039"

Northern seem to have at least 2 x 319s less in service today (compared to the usual number) with quite a few diesel services having been short-formed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is the total number of failures which are directly as a result of problems with the cascaded Class 319 units now with Northern Rail as a percentage of the actual units of that class that have been running in service with Northern Rail any different percentage-wise to the Class 319 units that run in other areas?

Would any fleet of new rolling stock normally be expected to have have a similar percentage failure rate?

 

[Domh245]

Would any fleet of new rolling stock normally be expected to have have a similar percentage failure rate?

Usually yes. For example, the 350/4s which were notoriously unreliable at the start. I suspect a number of failures at the moment are to do with unfamiliarity with the stock by the fitters and drivers.

 

[northwichcat]

Usually yes. For example, the 350/4s which were notoriously unreliable at the start. I suspect a number of failures at the moment are to do with unfamiliarity with the stock by the fitters and drivers.

How many 319s do Northern have being used for passenger service?

TPE have 10 x 350/4s and have 9 in service on a daily basis unless they are a unit down. If the unit out-of-service is already being maintained then that leaves TPE with no spare 350 and everyone notices a 185 on a diagram which should be a 350.

I just remembered one of the problems TPE initially faced with 350s is if the driver stopped in the wrong place at one of the Lake District stations the train finished up hitting the platform and damaging the unit.

 

[AM9]

Is the total number of failures which are directly as a result of problems with the cascaded Class 319 units now with Northern Rail as a percentage of the actual units of that class that have been running in service with Northern Rail any different percentage-wise to the Class 319 units that run in other areas?

Would any fleet of new rolling stock normally be expected to have have a similar percentage failure rate?

Apart from the 387s which have had a remarkably smooth entry into service, infant mortality failures are not uncommon with new stock. The 319s have been working in their Thameslink roles for over two decades without unexpectedly high failure rates so it can't be the stock itself. Given that Northern chose the specific 319/3s to be delivered, it can only be something in the maintenance/service practices that hasn't yet bedded in.

 

[northwichcat]

Given that Northern chose the specific 319/3s to be delivered, it can only be something in the maintenance/service practices that hasn't yet bedded in.

Was it actually Northern who chose them or DfT? I heard the ones that wouldn't need C6 exams before early 2016 were chosen to keep costs down.

In contrast apparently the opposite is happening with the TPE 170s. Chiltern are taking the ones due exams first and the units are receiving the exams before entering service.

 

[FQ]

By contrast, Merseyrail has it just about right - destination, next stop, silence, with extra safety information as you enter the city tunnels.

Except the escalators at Lime Street!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

319366 is at Preston. 319379 is at Stockport.

Thanks for the help!

 

[childwallblues]

Travelled tonight on the 1903 from WGN to LIV which departed from P2 and was Pacers 142046 and 142037. The conductor told me that the service was booked for a pair of 142s on a Friday.

 

[WatcherZero]

Was it actually Northern who chose them or DfT? I heard the ones that wouldn't need C6 exams before early 2016 were chosen to keep costs down.

In contrast apparently the opposite is happening with the TPE 170s. Chiltern are taking the ones due exams first and the units are receiving the exams before entering service.

As I understood it a couple of Northern personnel got to tour the depot for a week and pick out those they thought were in the best condition.

 

[childwallblues]

319374 entered service with Northern last week.

 

[AM9]

As I understood it a couple of Northern personnel got to tour the depot for a week and pick out those they thought were in the best condition.

Precisely, those that weren't picked are still running a really intensive service on Thameslink services. The higher level of failures that the Northern have experienced with the exception of OLE problems, can only be down to the learning curve of support services, and to a lesser extent drivers. Given the easy life that they have in the NW with the existing diesel timings, they should have less failures. If sprinters were sent down south, there would probably be teething problems until they were understood.

 

[westcoaster]

A lot of the failures could be down to the fact it's a new form of traction to the staff, there is always a time of failures which may have been sorted by experienced staff. Also these 319's run around as 4 cars so any critical equipment failure (compressor/MA/motors) will render the unit a failure, if these were 8 cars the other unit will supply the faulty one.

 

[WatcherZero]

Also not just the vehicles, the electrification itself will have glitches and idiosyncrasies that need to be worked out as they are discovered. Its not a mature installation that's been operating for decades.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

A couple of shots of the 319s from last Monday





The new interior of 319380.







319366 just north of Preston station. Looked well parked up in the morning when I was there.

 

[samj]

When did 319366 last move?

 

[jonesy3001]

Was still there when I took a pic last Friday, see link below.

 

[mpb56125]

319 383 has arrived at Allerton today from Wolverton Works.
http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2015/June-2015/i-ChLPBkq/A

Mark
http://mark5812.smugmug.com

 

[muddythefish]

I travelled on a 319 from Blackfriars - Bedford yesterday. They really are poor compared to the 377s on the same route which will be replaced by state of the art 800s soon. Grossly unfair really.

 

[Domh245]

800s through the core would be a bit useless south of Farringdon!

The reasons for the replacement of stock on Thameslink have been well chronicled in various other threads multiple times.

 

[childwallblues]

When did 319366 last move?

319366 at Preston does regular training runs to Carnforth.
319379 at Stockport appears to do static training only.

 

[AM9]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I travelled on a 319 from Blackfriars - Bedford yesterday. They really are poor compared to the 377s on the same route which will be replaced by state of the art 800s soon. Grossly unfair really.

That's not a useful comparision as the 319s are 23-26 years old compared to the Electrostars that are between 6 and 10 years old. The 377s are temporary anyway and will be elsewhere in three years when the 700s arrive, 800s would be useless as they are out of gauge for the core, won't run on DC, don't have ATO and couldn't handle the passenger levels.
You might as well complain that the 150s aren't as good as the 172s.

 

[Class377/5]

That's not a useful comparision as the 319s are 23-26 years old compared to the Electrostars that are between 6 and 10 years old. The 377s are temporary anyway and will be elsewhere in three years when the 700s arrive, 800s would be useless as they are out of gauge for the core, won't run on DC, don't have ATO and couldn't handle the passenger levels.
You might as well complain that the 150s aren't as good as the 172s.

Electrostars on Thameslink are between 0 and 12 years old. The 387s are between seven and zero months old where as the 377 fleet was built in two batches, 377/2 between 2002-2003 and 377/5 between 2008-2010.

But I do believe that the poster meant the 700s not 800s.

 

[Llama]

319366 at Preston does regular training runs to Carnforth.
319379 at Stockport appears to do static training only.

379 is still in FCC guise and is a demic.

 

[AM9]

Electrostars on Thameslink are between 0 and 12 years old. The 387s are between seven and zero months old where as the 377 fleet was built in two batches, 377/2 between 2002-2003 and 377/5 between 2008-2010. Electrostars on Thameslink are between 0 and 12....

Saying 'Electrostars' I was referring to the 377s alone as that was mentioned, and I thought that the ac/dc 377/2 were a bit later than the 377/1s, but stand corrected. The 377/5s (in FCC livery), I thought arrived in 2009 but I may be a year out there. The comparison with 319s is still not really relevant though.

.... But I do believe that the poster meant the 700s not 800s.

I know and I apologise for omitting the emoticon. Interesting thought though, if 800s could get through the core, how long would the dwells be in the peak?
They could also ascend the slope to Blackfriars when the ac ran out.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Tony Miles has confirmed in July Modern Railways that the Liverpool-Blackpool DMU service will be split at Preston from October (after the special Farnworth timetable finishes).
This will allow 319s to work most Liverpool SP/Lime St-Preston services.
319s will also work Liverpool-Warrington BQ services.

 

[AM9]

Tony Miles has confirmed in July Modern Railways that the Liverpool-Blackpool DMU service will be split at Preston from October (after the special Farnworth timetable finishes).
This will allow 319s to work most Liverpool SP/Lime St-Preston services.
319s will also work Liverpool-Warrington BQ services.

Will that require even more than the current 20 'ish 319s?
At least it will release Sprinters and Pacers for reinforcement of existing DMU services.

 

[northwichcat]

Tony Miles has confirmed in July Modern Railways that the Liverpool-Blackpool DMU service will be split at Preston from October (after the special Farnworth timetable finishes).
This will allow 319s to work most Liverpool SP/Lime St-Preston services.
319s will also work Liverpool-Warrington BQ services.

No changes showing yet on OpenTrainTimes. Although, I've noticed there's already some Liverpool-Preston only services particularly at peak times so it could be with some timetabling/diagramming revisions* those services could switch to 319s freeing up a couple of trains to use as extra capacity for other services.

* For instance, the 17:02 Liverpool SP-Preston is the return working of the 15:03 Blackpool-Liverpool SP, so something would have to change for the former to be a 319.

If it's proposed the through late services from Blackpool will end I can see objections from the Blackpool end as the illuminations don't end until November.

 

[WatcherZero]

Will that require even more than the current 20 'ish 319s?
At least it will release Sprinters and Pacers for reinforcement of existing DMU services.

Its going to progressively ramp up over the intervening period to 17 daily diagrams with 3 in maintenance each day before the start of December timetable.