Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

The people who currently stand on slow, groaning 2-car 142/150/156s, at least in the peaks, would beg to differ.

You're missing the point there.

The highest loadings on 2 car diagrams could hypothetically be 108, 136, 148, 175, 190 and 205 and all the diagrams get upgraded to 4 car. Yet on other lines there could be loadings of 200+ on 2 car services which remain as 2 car.

 

[47802]

If it's a definite improvement why is the opinion of passengers who actually use the services mixed?

Do you actually know which services are switching to 319s, what used to operate the services and what loadings were like? Your post seems to suggest not.

Manchester/Wigan to Liverpool services won't be able to run at anywhere near 100mph. 2 carriages are sufficient on a number of services while some of the 4 carriage workings were 4 car 156s - approx. same number of seats as a 319 but with the added benefit of 2+2 seating and tables. While for the services which were 2 car 142/150s they are an improvement for passengers travelling on those services but it does mean some services jump the queue for extra capacity.

The DMUs being freed up can of course be used for extra capacity on non-electrified lines but it seems as a result of Chiltern taking the TPE 170s, the released 156s will be running TPE services.

Northern have some round holes to fill and they've been sent some square pegs from London.

Well OK the Airport fasts loose 2 + 2 seating, and OK they are not new trains and have a suburban config so it doesn't look a massive improvement, but overall its still a significant improvement for Northern, Manchester - Liverpool - Wigan get quieter trains with more capacity, at least 10 DMU's released possibly a few of these diagrams have paired units so it may be more, 12 with the Cumbrian so that leaves at least 5 units available for usage elsewhere, after the -6 for TPX and -1 for the Burnley service, with more 319's to be introduced later in the year.

The 319's may get more significant refurb when the franchise is re-let and as you know the plan in the ITT is for the Airport fast services to go back to the Warrington route.

The 319's are what they are capacity wise, and as for people moaning about the TPX grab, its only a net grab of 4 units with the Cumbrian Loco Hauled, and if Northern decide to introduce 319's on the Blackpool Liverpool route as far as Preston then its should be more or less cancelled out.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You're missing the point there.
The highest loadings on 2 car diagrams could hypothetically be 108, 136, 148, 175, 190 and 205 and all the diagrams get upgraded to 4 car. Yet on other lines there could be loadings of 200+ on 2 car services which remain as 2 car.

You only get more DMUs cascaded by juggling round the services under the wires, which Northern seem disinclined to do, at least before the new franchise.
It's not their fault that TPE is short of stock and has purloined the first tranche of cascades for Airport-Blackpool.
At least that route gets more capacity with 2x156 being bigger than 1x185.
It will be 2017 before many of Northern's 2-car DMUs get doubled.
Where 319s are deployed, and what size they are, doesn't change that.
The wires can't go up fast enough.

 

[edwin_m]

You're missing the point there.

The highest loadings on 2 car diagrams could hypothetically be 108, 136, 148, 175, 190 and 205 and all the diagrams get upgraded to 4 car. Yet on other lines there could be loadings of 200+ on 2 car services which remain as 2 car.

The lines being electrified have the highest loadings overall, so the best business case for electrification. Once Transpennine electrification is complete all passenger trains on the Chat Moss route are likely to be electric with the exception of the ATW east of Earlestown and perhaps the odd balancing working.

For the non-electric routes the Chiltern Turbostar grab means there isn't stock available to increase capacity on non-electrified routes yet, but there should be in a few years unless the new government reneges on the Northern franchise spec in a big way. The Transport Secretary who signed up to Pacer replacement against the advice of the civil servants is still in post.

 

[northwichcat]

You only get more DMUs cascaded by juggling round the services under the wires, which Northern seem disinclined to do, at least before the new franchise.

What exactly do you mean by 'juggling around.' Do you mean truncating services so more EMUs can be used? If so Northern can't decide to do that they must apply to the ORR for permission to do that and the application could get rejected if people complain about losing direct links.

It's not their fault that TPE is short of stock and has purloined the first tranche of cascades for Airport-Blackpool.
At least that route gets more capacity with 2x156 being bigger than 1x185.

Don't forget one working goes down from a 6 car 185 to a 4 car 156, while the extra Friday/Saturday strengthening on Scottish services can only continue if North/South TPE are robbed of capacity. I'm not sure what TPE decided in the end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once Transpennine electrification is complete all passenger trains on the Chat Moss route are likely to be electric with the exception of the ATW east of Earlestown and perhaps the odd balancing working.

They'll be an additional Chester/Ellesmere Port-Earlestown-Bradford-Leeds service from December 2017 which will have to be diesel.

It remains to be seen what happens with North TPE. As services are required 7 days a week and overnight services are required I can't see all North TPE being electric until the diversionary routes are electrified.

The Transport Secretary who signed up to Pacer replacement against the advice of the civil servants is still in post.

He might not have had the backing of a civil servant but he did have the backing of the PM and the Chancellor.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What exactly do you mean by 'juggling around.' Do you mean truncating services so more EMUs can be used? If so Northern can't decide to do that they must apply to the ORR for permission to do that and the application could get rejected if people complain about losing direct links.

Yes indeed. If the DfT wants more cascades, that is what will have to happen.
That's what happened with the former Liverpool-Stalybridge service, now split at Victoria.
The ORR would only be involved if there was a path or performance conflict.
With too few 319s yet available for all wired routes, it's too much to expect Northern to do more than deploy them as they have done.
Once they have enough 319s there ought to be another 4-ish DMUs cascaded, before they need resort to a Preston split.

 

[ianhr]

Surely using 319s on Liverpool-Warrington BQ would release at least one more DMU? What is delaying them doing this?

 

[DJH1971]

Surely using 319s on Liverpool-Warrington BQ would release at least one more DMU? What is delaying them doing this?

Plus there is also the fact that the West to South curve at Earlestown is wired, and does not seem to be getting used.

 

[Whistler40145]

Unless Northern use it, the only time it'll get used is on Virgin diversions via Warrington BQ.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely using 319s on Liverpool-Warrington BQ would release at least one more DMU? What is delaying them doing this?

10 units in traffic is not enough for all services to be electric.
Northern has chosen to keep Warrington BQ DMU for now.
It needs another couple of units to convert them.
Those units operate to Victoria in the peak, so we probably won't see a 100% electric service on that route either.

 

[Whistler40145]

Doesn't the unit that works Liverpool to Warrington goto Chester for fuel and also a diagram off Chester, hence the reason why it's still a DMU?

 

[northwichcat]

That's what happened with the former Liverpool-Stalybridge service, now split at Victoria.

Which was actually done to accommodate the TPE Liverpool-Newcastle via Victoria service in agreement with Network Rail.

The ORR would only be involved if there was a path or performance conflict.

A lot of section 22 applications submitted to the ORR are for minor changes in the contract which are very unlikely to affect other operators.

Splitting up Liverpool-Blackpool could affect TPE and Virgin services.

 

[158722]

Surely using 319s on Liverpool-Warrington BQ would release at least one more DMU? What is delaying them doing this?

10 diagrams to cover Liverpool-Wigan, Airport and Vic have been quoted, against the 9 319s used in traffic so far, plus the other 3 delivered but not reported in pax use as yet (369/371/382). I'd say they will be hard pushed to cover all 10 turns tomorrow with 319s and debuts for 369 or 382? (unless they have worked...)

Given the arrival dates at Wolverton, 374 & 383 should be out in the next 2 weeks, completing the initial lot of 14 units. 375/376 should be out a month after that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Doesn't the unit that works Liverpool to Warrington goto Chester for fuel and also a diagram off Chester, hence the reason why it's still a DMU?

As far as I can see these workings are separate from the basic LIV-WBQ service.
There is an early DMU ECS to WBQ which then does the Ellesmere Port shuttles before heading off ECS to Preston.
Another peak DMU works from Liverpool to WBQ and then goes ECS to Wigan to pick up a Victoria service on the Atherton route.

In the afternoon there is a swap of DMUs at Chester.
One unit works ECS from Liverpool and then picks up a Northwich service, while another Northwich arrival works the Helsby-Ellesmere Port shuttles and then goes ECS back to Liverpool.

So there's nothing to stop the off-peak Liverpool-Warrington BQ services (which work to Victoria in the peak) going electric.

 

[Whistler40145]

Cheers

 

[158722]

So there's nothing to stop the off-peak Liverpool-Warrington BQ services (which work to Victoria in the peak) going electric.

Just not enough 319s as yet...

 

[samj]

Is anyone able to post the 319 diagrams in the morning? Will be really appreciated if someone could.

 

[Loop & Link]

As far as I can see these workings are separate from the basic LIV-WBQ service.
There is an early DMU ECS to WBQ which then does the Ellesmere Port shuttles before heading off ECS to Preston.
Another peak DMU works from Liverpool to WBQ and then goes ECS to Wigan to pick up a Victoria service on the Atherton route.

In the afternoon there is a swap of DMUs at Chester.
One unit works ECS from Liverpool and then picks up a Northwich service, while another Northwich arrival works the Helsby-Ellesmere Port shuttles and then goes ECS back to Liverpool.

So there's nothing to stop the off-peak Liverpool-Warrington BQ services (which work to Victoria in the peak) going electric.

If only it was as easy as that! The units that work the Warrington BQ service start the day at Blackpool CS and Wigan Wallgate CS and do various things before getting into Liverpool. And afterwards they end of they end up on the CLC routes and also other routes out of Vic (1638 ex-WBQ does that 1642 MCV, then 1754 MCV-BBN)

So while there are only 10 319's to use it makes sense to leave Warrington BQ services going over to 319's until later.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If only it was as easy as that! The units that work the Warrington BQ service start the day at Blackpool CS and Wigan Wallgate CS and do various things before getting into Liverpool. And afterwards they end of they end up on the CLC routes and also other routes out of Vic (1638 ex-WBQ does that 1642 MCV, then 1754 MCV-BBN)

So while there are only 10 319's to use it makes sense to leave Warrington BQ services going over to 319's until later.

Indeed it does.
You evidently need a degree in linear programming to work out how Northern optimises its DMU diagrams!

 

[PHILIPE]

Doesn't the unit that works Liverpool to Warrington goto Chester for fuel and also a diagram off Chester, hence the reason why it's still a DMU?

There is no general fuelling point at Chester. There is the Alstom Depot exclusively for ATW 175s (Alstom built) but does get used on occasions for other ATW units but not on a permanent basis.

 

[northwichcat]

In the afternoon there is a swap of DMUs at Chester.
One unit works ECS from Liverpool and then picks up a Northwich service, while another Northwich arrival works the Helsby-Ellesmere Port shuttles and then goes ECS back to Liverpool.

Those are nice straight forward diagrams - not.

A 156 starts the day by works Blackpool-Hazel Grove, Hazel Grove-Manchester, Manchester-Chester, Chester-Manchester, Manchester-Chester, the Helsby-Ellesmere Port services, Liverpool-Oxford Rd and I think remains on that line until the end of the day.

The switch at Chester is to ensure the 17:25 Liverpool-Oxford Rd is worked by a 156 while still ensuring the 14:5x Chester-Manchester and 16:5x Manchester-Buxton is a 4 car working.

 

[caliburn53]

no surprise that Earlestown the only station without electric services which will remain dmu only

 

[Whistler40145]

What about Hazel Grove to Stockport?

 

[Thomas6187]

no surprise that Earlestown the only station without electric services which will remain dmu only

The local Manchester-Liverpool will call at Earlstown. The 06:02 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool looks like it is going to be worked by a 319 in the morning

 

[AM9]

If it's a definite improvement why is the opinion of passengers who actually use the services mixed?

For the same reason that there is a mixed view from passengers on our nice shiny new 387s on Thameslink, - that's what people do.

Do you actually know which services are switching to 319s, what used to operate the services and what loadings were like? Your post seems to suggest not.

There are plenty of posts from those on here who have regularly experienced the mixture of DMUs that run the services on the NW electrification phases 2, 3 & 4. As I have posted in replies to you in the past, I accept that the 142s, 150s & 156s are slow, noisy, (usually too short) and sometimes unreliable. The 319s with which I am very familiar, have for the last decade carried loads far greater than anything expected in normal service in the NW and although not the most comfortable, have done this without the space wasting of full-size 2+2 seating and tables in a high-volume commuter train.

Manchester/Wigan to Liverpool services won't be able to run at anywhere near 100mph. 2 carriages are sufficient on a number of services while some of the 4 carriage workings were 4 car 156s - approx. same number of seats as a 319 but with the added benefit of 2+2 seating and tables. While for the services which were 2 car 142/150s they are an improvement for passengers travelling on those services but it does mean some services jump the queue for extra capacity.

I didn't mention 100mph running, I said "linespeeds" and that was in the context of reaching and maintaining such speeds for longer than the DMUs that they are replacing. I have actually ridden in a 319 from MIA to LIV and it did travel at 90 mph for as long as the linespeed limits allowed.
The 319s can carry as many passengers (maybe more) as the 156s and their dwell times are much shorter. If the much promised 'Northern Powerhouse is to be more than a politician's election bribe, you can expect trains to be fully loaded in the peak hours. If the demand increases, the 319s will be able to deliver and the phenomenum of passengers left on the platforms should probably be a rare exception. That additional demand should ensure that additional investment is there to provide higher capacity when the 319s are life expired.

Northern have some round holes to fill and they've been sent some square pegs from London.

Commuters rarely fit the holes available for them. Just when the correct holes are provided, they change shape.

 

[andyb2706]

The local Manchester-Liverpool will call at Earlstown. The 06:02 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool looks like it is going to be worked by a 319 in the morning

It definitely is a 319, unless is fails! 319364 is already at Manchester Victoria in the turn back sidings waiting for the morning. Think they are taking no chances with is being the first electric passenger service out of Manchester Victoria.

 

[DJH1971]

Any more 319's yet to come up North?

 

[D365]

For the same reason that there is a mixed view from passengers on our nice shiny new 378s on Thameslink, - that's what people do.

Are the mixed feelings not due to what is to be debatably an interior 'downgrade' in the final Class 700 fleet?

 

[Loop & Link]

no surprise that Earlestown the only station without electric services which will remain dmu only

Not sure where you getting this idea from as you've mentioned it a few times! But all 3 Lime St-Man Vic diagrams (which stop at Earlestown) are 319's from tomorrow.

 

[nw-sparks]

2F53 06:03 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street High Level cancelled (Late arrival of inward stock/unit)

2F55 06:38 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street High Level cancelled (Pantograph fault or PANCHEX activation (positive))

Phil

Update:
Hard to be sure from my desk but it looks like the 5F53 ECS from Preston to form 2F53 above sat down south of Balshaw Lane, blocking the WCML for about an hour.

2F58 07:32 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Wigan North Western cancelled (Pantograph fault or PANCHEX activation (positive))
2F65 08:31 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street High Level cancelled (Pantograph fault or PANCHEX activation (positive))