Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Loop & Link]

386 has sat down at Boars Head, keeps tripping when raising the pantograph. Another 319 required to assist hence the above cancellations.

 

[AM9]

2F53 06:03 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street High Level cancelled (Late arrival of inward stock/unit)

2F55 06:38 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street High Level cancelled (Pantograph fault or PANCHEX activation (positive))

Phil

Update:
Hard to be sure from my desk but it looks like the 5F53 ECS from Preston to form 2F53 above sat down south of Balshaw Lane, blocking the WCML for about an hour.

2F58 07:32 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Wigan North Western cancelled (Pantograph fault or PANCHEX activation (positive))
2F65 08:31 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street High Level cancelled (Pantograph fault or PANCHEX activation (positive))

Would failure at that level be likely an infrastructure problem or a maintenance issue?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

0900 Lime St-Wigan OK, but I guess I was lucky.
319 364 was punctual, but slipped a lot on the climb past Carr Mill and on joining the WCML.
The PIS was stuck on "Welcome to this Class 319", without any audio or manual announcements.

All told there were at least 7x319s out today.
I think there was one 2x156 formation working on TPE Blackpool services, but at least 2 services were still 185s.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is anyone able to post the 319 diagrams in the morning? Will be really appreciated if someone could.

Can't do diagrams, but services I know have run today are.....

Manchester Victoria-Liverpool Lime Street

0602 319364
0702 319361
0738 156461+142041
0802 319382
0838 150119
0902 319369
1002 319361

Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Victoria

0520 319361
0620 319382
0720 319369
0742 156452
0820 319361

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any 319 to GW will only be temporary now the requirement for fast lime running and so 110mph running is needed.

Is that another name for quick lime, for if it is, I agree that it would be best to run away from that extremely quickly...

 

[LeylandLen]

The 1800 Liv LS to Preston today was a 319 (sorry couldn't get number) Is that first working 319 into Preston ? Usual service normally goes to Blackpool N and has been usual pacers from what I've seen today.

 

[Loop & Link]

This one ends at Preston and starts the day there tomorrow working 5F53.

 

[1D53]

11 have made it into service today.

 

[ianhr]

I did 13.02 Man Vic-Edge Hill, 14.04 Edge Hill-Wigan, 15.03 Wigan-LPL, and 16.20 LPL-ManVic. All 319s, and as far as I could tell all the other LPL-Wigan, LPL-ManVic and LPL-MIA workings were 319s too. The Wigan trains were well loaded demonstrating that 4-car units are not "overprovision" on this route, but just enabling a reasonable number of passengers to at last travel in comfort, as would normally be expected on any off-peak train in the South East, rather than being rammed into a swaying lurching bouncing 2 car Pacer.

The performance was impressive, a few minutes late start from Man Vic became 2 minutes ahead by St.Helen's Jct., early arrivals at Wigan and Liverpool too despite some wheel slip on wet rail. The trains were clean and warm too on a cold damp day.

The absence of the usual fleet of 142s belching their fumes at Lime Street was also an pleasing!

 

[DJH1971]

Can't do diagrams, but services I know have run today are.....

Manchester Victoria-Liverpool Lime Street

0602 319364
0702 319361
0738 156461+142041
0802 319382
0838 150119
0902 319369
1002 319361

Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Victoria

0520 319361
0620 319382
0720 319369
0742 156452
0820 319361

I was on the 07:38 MCV-LIV service today (08:08 from SHJ).

Was expecting a 319.

 

[darloscott]

I was on the 07:38 MCV-LIV service today (08:08 from SHJ).

Was expecting a 319.

Having a quick look it appears that diagram is on the Warrington BQ services all day until it goes back to Victoria at 1642, then I think works the 1754 to Blackburn and back then finishes at Wigan Wallgate

 

[Bevan Price]

I did 13.02 Man Vic-Edge Hill, 14.04 Edge Hill-Wigan, 15.03 Wigan-LPL, and 16.20 LPL-ManVic. All 319s, and as far as I could tell all the other LPL-Wigan, LPL-ManVic and LPL-MIA workings were 319s too. The Wigan trains were well loaded demonstrating that 4-car units are not "overprovision" on this route, but just enabling a reasonable number of passengers to at last travel in comfort, as would normally be expected on any off-peak train in the South East, rather than being rammed into a swaying lurching bouncing 2 car Pacer.

The performance was impressive, a few minutes late start from Man Vic became 2 minutes ahead by St.Helen's Jct., early arrivals at Wigan and Liverpool too despite some wheel slip on wet rail. The trains were clean and warm too on a cold damp day.

The absence of the usual fleet of 142s belching their fumes at Lime Street was also an pleasing!

Not totally absent - the (late) 09:28 and the 10:28 Liverpool - Blackpool were both Pacers, and there was another on Warrington Bank Quay services.

I had 319.364 from St. Helens to Liverpool (10:03 ex-Wigan), returning to St. Helens on 319.371 (12;00 ex Lime St.)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was on the 07:38 MCV-LIV service today (08:08 from SHJ).

Was expecting a 319.

Comes into Victoria from Blackburn I think. The 319 that arrives at 0723 goes into the siding at the west end of Victoria, lets the 0738 go and then returns to form the 0802.

 

[Cletus]

There are 2 319's at Willesden this afternoon. No idea which though.

 

[northwichcat]

The Wigan trains were well loaded demonstrating that 4-car units are not "overprovision" on this route

Some Liverpool-Wigan services were previously booked as 4 car 156s proving they are some of the busiest services Northern operate given Northern could put on 300 seats despite their diesel carriage shortage.

The question will be what will happen if passenger numbers grow and 4 carriages are no longer sufficient.

 

[D365]

The question will be what will happen if passenger numbers grow and 4 carriages are no longer sufficient.

If technically feasible, lengthen to five-car units; however this will bear a severe hinderance on acceleration.
Or if the possibility exists (may require swapping for a partial fleet of Class 321 or 317), shorten to three-car units (as is planned for ScotRail taking on LM's seven legacy Class 321s) and double each train formation.

One would hope that the current configuration should suffice until the Class 319 is deemed life-expired and/or opportunity exists to specify a brand-new fleet.

 

[edwin_m]

There have been various discussions on this forum about the possibility of reducing 319s to 3-car and running them in pairs on the busiest services, which would still fit some platforms that would be difficult to extend for 8-car.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its what the ROSCO wanted to do with them but Dft wouldn't authorise an extensive refurbishment just a refresh. However the next franchisee is required to refurbish all their stock so work may still be done.

 

[D365]

However, the word since is that it will be more difficult to achieve on a Class 319 than any comparable EMU due to more significant equipment which must be relocated from the trailer car. As far as I know, this extends to Scotrail taking on the seven remaining 321s from LM rather than receiving any Class 319s directly from Thameslink.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not really since, all the things that would need to be relocated are listed in the ROSCOs brochure for the class.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What other classes of EMU (3rd rail or overhead) are the 319s compatible with?

 

[AM9]

What other classes of EMU (3rd rail or overhead) are the 319s compatible with?

The experts here would need to confirm but trains of the same era using similar traction equipment are:
3rd rail:
455 & 456
25kV:
317, 318, 320, 321 & 322
They may not all have compatible control systems though.

As an aside, would any of these be compatible with MKIII DMUs such as 150s, just as 171 DMUs are compatible with Electrostars?

 

[richa2002]

I do believe they are, in theory, compatible with class 317 to 322. Not 455 or 456 though as their multi works via jumpers rather than the coupler of the 317-322.

 

[northwichcat]

There have been various discussions on this forum about the possibility of reducing 319s to 3-car and running them in pairs on the busiest services, which would still fit some platforms that would be difficult to extend for 8-car.

Its what the ROSCO wanted to do with them but Dft wouldn't authorise an extensive refurbishment just a refresh. However the next franchisee is required to refurbish all their stock so work may still be done.

Reforming them to 3 car would be costly and Tony Miles posted on wnxx a few weeks ago it's unlikely to happen even during the next franchise.

I think at one stage Porterbrook thought there was a risk their 4 car EMUs would finish up off-lease doing nothing unless they reformed some of them but with more electrification having been announced since it was proposed there's perhaps less risk of that happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

25kV:
317, 318, 320, 321 & 322

323s were also built to be compatible with AC compatible 31xs and 32xs.

I think the CAF/Siemens 332s were the first AC EMUs not built to be compatible with a range of EMUs already in operation on the network.

 

[jopsuk]

As an aside, would any of these be compatible with MKIII DMUs such as 150s,

Not in the slightest- the Mark 3 EMUs have a tighlock-type coupler, whilst the DMUs have a "BSI" coupler common between the Pacers, the Sprinters, class 170 and LM 172s. 165/166/168 and the Chiltern (and LO?) 172s have the same physical coupler as the other DMUs with a different electrical connection

 

[158722]

There are 2 319's at Willesden this afternoon. No idea which though.

Possibly 319377/378, which along with 319429, have gone to Wolverton this morning.

Leaves 319374-378 & 383 for NOR at Wolverton - no sign of 374 moving to Allerton yet?

 

[AM9]

I do believe they are, in theory, compatible with class 317 to 322. Not 455 or 456 though as their multi works via jumpers rather than the coupler of the 317-322.

Ah yes, continuing the latest Southern Railway technology.

 

[westcoaster]

Ah yes, continuing the latest Southern Railway technology.

Also compatible with 465/466 if the cab cut out switch in the networkers is isolated ( basically cuts out the rheostatic brakes) for emergencies and assistance purposes only

 

[Kite159]

Having used my first Northern 319 yesterday, I must say they are quite purple inside

And a regular key to unlock the additional door control panels?

 

[Class377/5]

Its what the ROSCO wanted to do with them but Dft wouldn't authorise an extensive refurbishment just a refresh. However the next franchisee is required to refurbish all their stock so work may still be done.

No the ROSCO said it could be done if the TOCs wanted. It never planned to make them three cars for Northern.

Your confusing the initial DfT plan for the 319s to have no work done with them on entering service that Northern managed to get changed with long term ability to make the units three cars.