Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester Airport is the other possible terminus for EMUs from the west/north west, but, even with Platform 4 available, platform capacity will be at a premium when more trains are too long for double occupancy.

And, as we have already established, it is arguably already overserved, so we might as well look to send the EMUs somewhere where the service is perhaps less frequent.

Neil

 

[NorthernSpirit]

An idea would be to have two units on the Airport Line both of which are self contained shuttles - one should be a 319 and one, a 185 and out of both you could easily get a once every 15 - 17 minute frequency then as mentioned elsewhere extend the ATW service to the Airport thus giving North Wales a direct service to the airport.

The 319's could then, providing that there is space, be diagrammed to run from Hatfield to Windermere via Glossop and Manchester and whilst where at it why not stick some 319's on a 'new' service between York and Southport via Huddersfield which would free up some more DMU's.

 

[Greybeard33]

The 319's could then, providing that there is space, be diagrammed to run from Hatfield to Windermere via Glossop and Manchester and whilst where at it why not stick some 319's on a 'new' service between York and Southport via Huddersfield which would free up some more DMU's.

A service from Hadfield/Glossop to Windermere would have to go right across Piccadilly Station throat, like the TPE services to Liverpool do at the moment. This causes severe congestion and a key aim of the Northern Hub/Ordsall Chord projects is to eliminate or at least minimise such moves.

 

[Nym]

A service from Hadfield/Glossop to Windermere would have to go right across Piccadilly Station throat, like the TPE services to Liverpool do at the moment. This causes severe congestion and a key aim of the Northern Hub/Ordsall Chord projects is to eliminate or at least minimise such moves.

Or run via Victoria(!)

 

[Geeves]

As Nym says a service from Hadfield to Windermere could run via the soon to be wired freight only line from Ashburys to Philips Park Junction, then to Victoria. no need for running across Piccadilly station throat .

In fact you could have a service to the airport from Glossop and never need swap ends via the freight line and curve at Ordsall

 

[Greybeard33]

As Nym says a service from Hadfield to Windermere could run via the soon to be wired freight only line from Ashburys to Philips Park Junction, then to Victoria. no need for running across Piccadilly station throat .

In fact you could have a service to the airport from Glossop and never need swap ends via the freight line and curve at Ordsall

Impatient Glossop commuters might not be very impressed by the scenic tour of Manchester!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Impatient Glossop commuters might not be very impressed by the scenic tour of Manchester!

During the Christmas-New Year closure of Picc ages ago the Hadfields/Glossops ran that way using DMUs. Very bouncy and squealy on a Pacer!

Neil

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An idea would be to have two units on the Airport Line both of which are self contained shuttles - one should be a 319 and one, a 185 and out of both you could easily get a once every 15 - 17 minute frequency then as mentioned elsewhere extend the ATW service to the Airport thus giving North Wales a direct service to the airport.

The 319's could then, providing that there is space, be diagrammed to run from Hatfield to Windermere via Glossop and Manchester and whilst where at it why not stick some 319's on a 'new' service between York and Southport via Huddersfield which would free up some more DMU's.

I have two comments to make...One for each paragraph above.

In your first paragraph, I feel that the use of a Class 185 unit on a Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport self-contained shuttle does not fully use the benefit of such a unit which more lends itself to much longer services on routes where its undoubted attributes would be best utilised.

In your second paragraph, I must confess to being rather taken aback by your idea of services from Hertfordshire emanating from Hatfield to Windermere that go via Glossop and Manchester, as this most novel rail route had me reaching for my railway atlases, Quail maps and other items from my railway archives.

 

[deltic08]

I have two comments to make...One for each paragraph above.

In your first paragraph, I feel that the use of a Class 185 unit on a Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport self-contained shuttle does not fully use the benefit of such a unit which more lends itself to much longer services on routes where its undoubted attributes would be best utilised.

In your second paragraph, I must confess to being rather taken aback by your idea of services from Hertfordshire emanating from Hatfield to Windermere that go via Glossop and Manchester, as this most novel rail route had me reaching for my railway atlases, Quail maps and other items from my railway archives.

Could do if Woodhead route was reopened. Hatfield to Hadfield sounds catchy.

 

[Bantamzen]

In your first paragraph, I feel that the use of a Class 185 unit on a Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport self-contained shuttle does not fully use the benefit of such a unit which more lends itself to much longer services on routes where its undoubted attributes would be best utilised.

Indeed, if there is to be an airport shuttle the 319s would best serve this route, preferably with some modifications to free up some room for luggage racks. 185s on a short, fully electrified route would be an utter waste. They are best used for the purposes they were ordered (albeit over-specced)for, charging up and down the Pennine routes. Perhaps when the North Pennine route finally gets wired, they could be employed on other routes such as the Calder Valley and S&C, or maybe even some of the Scotland or Wales routes?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I don't know the route between Manchester and the airport but if it's AC all the way, would it benefit from having a dedicated fleet of trains for the shuttle service (a variant of Desiro), with say 8 coach units (12 if all the plaforms would handle them) with large areas for luggage?

 

[childwallblues]

In the short term your passenger flows can be modelled, but over a 2 year period making anything more than wild guesses isn't advisable.
If you provide more services the demand will soak it up, potentially the demand you never even thought of.

The capacity on the Liverpool routes could be maxed out before the rest of the network goes electric.
It will be interesting to see how the 319's are received by the lay traveler

Passengers will probably not notice the difference - except that they can probably get a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know the route between Manchester and the airport but if it's AC all the way, would it benefit from having a dedicated fleet of trains for the shuttle service (a variant of Desiro), with say 8 coach units (12 if all the plaforms would handle them) with large areas for luggage?

319s would do the job and I would imagine 4-car would be more than adequate.

Neil

 

[Wolfie]

319s would do the job and I would imagine 4-car would be more than adequate.

Neil

They managed to service both Gatwick and Luton airports for over 20 years, what makes Manchester airport so special?

 

[northwichcat]

They managed to service both Gatwick and Luton airports for over 20 years, what makes Manchester airport so special?

Maybe the fact that Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Blackpool-Manchester Airport (2 routes set to get 319s) are among the fastest services between central Manchester and the Airport not the stopping services?

Maybe the fact that Northern are getting 319/3s (with commuter interiors) not 319/2s (with regional style interiors)?

What's so special about Gatwick Express? Why can't it use 319s if they are suitable for Airport services?

Luton Airport is less than half the size of Manchester.

 

[Wolfie]

Maybe the fact that Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Blackpool-Manchester Airport (2 routes set to get 319s) are among the fastest services between central Manchester and the Airport not the stopping services?

Maybe the fact that Northern are getting 319/3s (with commuter interiors) not 319/2s (with regional style interiors)?

What's so special about Gatwick Express? Why can't it use 319s if they are suitable for Airport services?
Luton Airport is less than half the size of Manchester.

My bold

I assume you would be prepared for the Gatwick Express style fares to go with the different rolling stock... and in any event what is so special about 25+ year old class 442s?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They managed to service both Gatwick and Luton airports for over 20 years, what makes Manchester airport so special?

Would it be anything to do with the fact that Manchester Airport is the terminal point on the service from Liverpool, as it is this route where the first Class 319 units are to be used upon?

 

[northwichcat]

My bold

I assume you would be prepared for the Gatwick Express style fares to go with the different rolling stock

Gatwick Express does do a whole load of promotions, like 10% off for purchasing online, discounted rates if tickets are purchased on board planes arriving at Gatwick, discounted rates for carnet style tickets etc. making it difficult to compare with North of England routes.

Adlington (Lancs) to Manchester Airport seems to be a similar distance to Gatwick to Victoria and the off-peak day return is £12.10 and you can't get a non-stop express from Adlington (Lancs) to Manchester Airport. On Gatwick Express the off-peak day return is £13.25 (at the ticket office) or £11.80 (if purchased online.) So the TPE fares do seem similar to Gatwick Express fares already!

... and in any event what is so special about 25+ year old class 442s?

1. Gatwick Express has brand new Electrostars on order.
2. The 442s are regional trains (effectively an electric 158), the 319s are commuter trains (effectively an electric 150.)

You said the 319s are prefectly suitable for Gatwick services - 319s transferring to Gatwick Express would have been an option.

 

[JamesRowden]

the 319s are commuter trains (effectively an electric 150.)

I'd say that: 150s are more like 313s (they both have a top speed of 75mph); and 319s are more like 170s (they both have a top speed of 100mph).

 

[northwichcat]

I'd say that: 150s are more like 313s (they both have a top speed of 75mph); and 319s are more like 170s (they both have a top speed of 100mph).

The 31xs are all similar to 150s in style of body. The 357s are really the electric version of the 170.

 

[Wolfie]

1. Gatwick Express has brand new Electrostars on order.
2. The 442s are regional trains (effectively an electric 158), the 319s are commuter trains (effectively an electric 150.)

You said the 319s are prefectly suitable for Gatwick services - 319s transferring to Gatwick Express would have been an option.

Southern already operates Electrostars (lots of them!) and does not operate 319s hence the logistics burden of your suggestion would be significant.

Many, if not all, Express services actually run on to Brighton.

The 442s are completely unsuitable for the role they are performing, the purpose built 460s having been withdrawn from Gatwick Express service, due to small doors and limited luggage space!

Finally, and rather important when it comes to discussing new rolling stock, Gatwick Express is (or at least was when it was a separate TOC) profit making!

The 31xs are all similar to 150s in style of body. The 357s are really the electric version of the 170.

There are lots of "electric versions" of the 170s - Electrostars are the electric cousins of Turbostars full stop.

The 31xs are FAR from all similar to the 150s in style of body (unless you merely mean door placement). There is a rather big difference between the PEP-based EMUs and the Mk3 based ones (which include 320-322).

 

[JamesRowden]

The 31xs are all similar to 150s in style of body. The 357s are really the electric version of the 170.

I don't find any significant difference between a 319 and a 357 (I have traveled on both recently).

 

[Bletchleyite]

My bold

I assume you would be prepared for the Gatwick Express style fares to go with the different rolling stock... and in any event what is so special about 25+ year old class 442s?

The 442s are knackered - a half-job refurb that didn't even include a proper clean, certainly not worth a premium. End doors are poorly suited to boarding with lots of luggage. There is a reason HEx chose a commuter door layout (but, to be fair, a better than IC interior).

Neil

 

[Wolfie]

The 442s are knackered - a half-job refurb that didn't even include a proper clean, certainly not worth a premium. End doors are poorly suited to boarding with lots of luggage. There is a reason HEx chose a commuter door layout (but, to be fair, a better than IC interior).

Neil

I am well aware of it (including the shot 1960s motors) and yet our Northern cousins seem to think all is rosy down South but it's grim up North.....

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I have two comments to make...One for each paragraph above.

In your second paragraph, I must confess to being rather taken aback by your idea of services from Hertfordshire emanating from Hatfield to Windermere that go via Glossop and Manchester, as this most novel rail route had me reaching for my railway atlases, Quail maps and other items from my railway archives.

I ment Hadfield, the thing is is that both places are almost spelt the same apart from one letter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As Nym says a service from Hadfield to Windermere could run via the soon to be wired freight only line from Ashburys to Philips Park Junction, then to Victoria. no need for running across Piccadilly station throat .

In fact you could have a service to the airport from Glossop and never need swap ends via the freight line and curve at Ordsall

Now there's an idea.

Plus it does eliminate the current starting from / terminating services in Picc and also creates some slack, in the otherwise on the breaking point timetabling, as there simply isn't enough room in the timetable at the moment unless you bolt two services together, simply put as in a possible Hadfield to Windermere service.

 

[northwichcat]

Finally, and rather important when it comes to discussing new rolling stock, Gatwick Express is (or at least was when it was a separate TOC) profit making!

Gatwick Express is 1 service part of the Southern franchise. TPE and Northern combined are hundreds of different services, just because the franchises are subsided doesn't mean every single service is loss making. Southern were not a profitable franchise in the 2013/14 year - they were not only unable to pay their £165.5m premium but they needed £17m support on top of that.

If only profitable franchises should be allowed to order new stock than SWT, Thameslink and East Coast are the only franchises which should be allowed to order new stock this year and orders have been placed for all 3 to receive new trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus it does eliminate the current starting from / terminating services in Picc and also creates some slack, in the otherwise on the breaking point timetabling, as there simply isn't enough room in the timetable at the moment unless you bolt two services together, simply put as in a possible Hadfield to Windermere service.

Though assuming you don't decide that should be a self-contained shuttle, I can't think of many places (other than Manchester city centre) *more* justifying of a direct Manchester Airport service than Windermere, given the massive tourist flows.

Neil

 

[Wolfie]

Though assuming you don't decide that should be a self-contained shuttle, I can't think of many places (other than Manchester city centre) *more* justifying of a direct Manchester Airport service than Windermere, given the massive tourist flows.

Neil

True, although there is an arguement that says the requirements of tourism should probably come second to those of the inhabitants of the area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, although there is an arguement that says the requirements of tourism should probably come second to those of the inhabitants of the area.

Though that's not always so clear cut. Providing tourists decent public transport means they are less likely to hire cars, which clog up the roads used by the inhabitants of the area.

Discouraging cars in the Lakes would seem a very important aim - the traffic congestion (and resultant pollution) is terrible.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

I'd say that: 150s are more like 313s (they both have a top speed of 75mph); and 319s are more like 170s (they both have a top speed of 100mph).

LOL! What universe are you living in mate?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't find any significant difference between a 319 and a 357 (I have traveled on both recently).

Oh, you were being serious.

Well... they're about as different as you get! Certainly for comparison with 170s.