Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[JamesRowden]

LOL! What universe are you living in mate?
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Oh, you were being serious.

Well... they're about as different as you get! Certainly for comparison with 170s.

Your post just highlights my point even more

319s are very different to 150s

 

[Class377/5]

Gatwick Express is 1 service part of the Southern franchise. TPE and Northern combined are hundreds of different services, just because the franchises are subsided doesn't mean every single service is loss making. Southern were not a profitable franchise in the 2013/14 year - they were not only unable to pay their £165.5m premium but they needed £17m support on top of that.

If only profitable franchises should be allowed to order new stock than SWT, Thameslink and East Coast are the only franchises which should be allowed to order new stock this year and orders have been placed for all 3 to receive new trains.

Southern/Gatwick Express when combined with Thameslink will bring in around £3.5bn over 8 years in expected profit. Hence the reasons for allowing new trains on the premium Gatwick Express and replacements for the unsuitable 313s to Moorgate. When I say unsuitable, I mean too many seats and not enough standing positions as GTR are proposing 378 like interiors.

Back to the 319s, Northern seems to believe thy are one part of a realistic solution to the overcrowding and are getting more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

319s are very different to 150s

The body and seating are not.

Neil

 

[JamesRowden]

The body and seating are not.

Neil

I was talking operationally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was talking operationally.

What, because one is a DMU and one is an EMU?

They are both derived from the Mk3 20m bodyshell, so they are very similar physically.

Neil

 

[JamesRowden]

What, because one is a DMU and one is an EMU?

They are both derived from the Mk3 20m bodyshell, so they are very similar physically.

Neil

To put my post in perspective, I was replying to this post:

the 319s are commuter trains (effectively an electric 150.)

Operationally I see them a quite different since one is a 75mph unit suited for local services and the other is a 100mph unit which I think has been well suited to the Bedford-Brighton route. If the Bedford-Brighton route was not electrifed: it definetly would still have never been operated using 150s. Likewise: 150s don't operate fast services between Oxford and Paddington like the 319s have been recommended for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A fair point...but the 150s were used on TransPennine services to start with.

 

[Viscount702]

Back to the 319s, Northern seems to believe thy are one part of a realistic solution to the overcrowding and are getting more.

They are due to get 14 for Liverpool-Airport/Wigan/Victoria/Warrington.

It has always been assumed more would come for the rest of NW Electrification but never confirmed.

Are we talking about the latter or more for other reasons. Also I thought Northern had said anything about stock beyond the current 14 would be for the new Franchisee.

 

[northwichcat]

A fair point...but the 150s were used on TransPennine services to start with.

And up until 2008 were used on Buxton-Blackpool services which is probably as long as any Thameslink service and a service some people could have usefully used from end to end in the Summer.

 

[AM9]

And up until 2008 were used on Buxton-Blackpool services which is probably as long as any Thameslink service and a service some people could have usefully used from end to end in the Summer.

I've had the 'pleasure' of travelling on 150s twice, once from Barking to Gospel Oak on the Goblin. It was OK because the line is slow anyway. The other was from Hereford to New Street last summer. That was OK except for the slog up Lickey, - I wondered if the engines would give up before we got to the top!
319s, I've probably been on them over 100 times, a few times as far as Brighton.
As a comparison, visually the 150s look a lot more spartan with bench seats for three. The 319 seats are OK when you get used to them. Their performance is no match. Despite the 319s so-called lack of acceleration, it isn't apparent to passengers, even up the 1 in 29 out of City Thameslink. They could probably make a reasonable attempt climbing from Bromsgrove to Barnt Green and reach a lot more than the 20mph that the lower geared 150 do. Although the 75mph gearing gives the 150s a better climbing potential, the power to weight ratio advantage of the 319s really kicks in on long gradients. Much more than the 9.46:8.0 HP/tonne implies, - electric traction allows power to be delivered for long periods that would probably make a diesel engine fail sooner rather then later.

 

[Class377/5]

They are due to get 14 for Liverpool-Airport/Wigan/Victoria/Warrington.

It has always been assumed more would come for the rest of NW Electrification but never confirmed.

Are we talking about the latter or more for other reasons. Also I thought Northern had said anything about stock beyond the current 14 would be for the new Franchisee.

More are coming in early 2015 than announced.

 

[ianhr]

What, because one is a DMU and one is an EMU?

They are both derived from the Mk3 20m bodyshell, so they are very similar physically.

Neil

The 319s are QUIET and free of that dreadful pervasive diesel fume stench!

On the 319s you can actually get your knees behind the face to back seats! (almost impossible on 150s).

The 319s are 4-car....a reasonable chance of getting a seat at busy times.......a 150 in the rush hour, and there will be a scrum to even get on the thing!

 

[Starmill]

The 319s are QUIET and free of that dreadful pervasive diesel fume stench!

Well you're right about them not being bone-shatteringly noisy like some 150s can be - and worse, the vibration in the sprinters can be awful! But compared to a modern EMU, I wouldn't call them quiet. Especially not with the windows open!!
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More are coming in early 2015 than announced.

That will presumably mean the loss of something else :P

 

[AM9]

Well you're right about them not being bone-shatteringly noisy like some 150s can be - and worse, the vibration in the sprinters can be awful! But compared to a modern EMU, I wouldn't call them quiet. Especially not with the windows open!!

Similarly, compared with a modern DMU, I wouldn't call 150s quiet, again not with the windows open!!
That's called progress.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a comparison, visually the 150s look a lot more spartan with bench seats for three. The 319 seats are OK when you get used to them.

The 150/2 as built has the same seats as the 319/321 as built.

Neil

 

[Bevan Price]

If the timetable stays the same, Northern will need 12 electric diagrams for the existing Manchester/Warrington/Wigan services.
I doubt they would want to diagram the other 2 units while fleet experience is building.
Some of the services could be sped up by 5 minutes or so, and maybe the Victoria service could manage with one unit fewer, with a fast turnround.
But whether that sort of change is envisaged this side of the Bolton electrification I don't know.
There are a few peak Liverpool-Preston workings which could go electric, but they are currently linked to the Blackpool services.

I think 12 diagrams would need some very tight turnrounds, and leaves potential for poor timekeeping, particularly as they also have to make paths available for TPE services on the Chat Moss route. Unless they reduce "charter time", I think that Liverpool / Wigan and Liverpool/Manchester journey times may only be 2 -3 minutes faster at most.

So, ideally they probably need something like:-

Liverpool - Manchester Airport (hourly) : 3 units (as now)
Liverpool - Mancheter Victoria (2 per hour) : 5 units
Liverpool - Wigan (2 per hour) : 5 units

Plus, eventually:
Liverpool - Preston (hourly) : 3 units, becoming 4 units when they extend to Blackpool, or 5 units if they retain the lightly used Lime Street / South Parkway extension of the Blackpool/Preston services.

 

[deltic08]

A fair point...but the 150s were used on TransPennine services to start with.

And Birmingham-Cardiff

 

[northwichcat]

Their performance is no match. Despite the 319s so-called lack of acceleration, it isn't apparent to passengers, even up the 1 in 29 out of City Thameslink.

EMUs are generally faster at accelerating than DMUs. The question isn't whether 319s are poorer than DMUs at accelerating, it's whether they could operate c.323 operated services (which include tightly pathed WCML stopping services) to existing timings. Porterbrook don't seem to think they can and they own the 319s, so wouldn't exactly want to undersell them.
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Similarly, compared with a modern DMU, I wouldn't call 150s quiet, again not with the windows open!!
That's called progress.

But then an EMU with the windows open can be noiser in the saloon than a modern DMU with air conditioning (not the noisy 185s though!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think 12 diagrams would need some very tight turnrounds, and leaves potential for poor timekeeping, particularly as they also have to make paths available for TPE services on the Chat Moss route. Unless they reduce "charter time", I think that Liverpool / Wigan and Liverpool/Manchester journey times may only be 2 -3 minutes faster at most.

So, ideally they probably need something like:-

Liverpool - Manchester Airport (hourly) : 3 units (as now)
Liverpool - Mancheter Victoria (2 per hour) : 5 units
Liverpool - Wigan (2 per hour) : 5 units

Plus, eventually:
Liverpool - Preston (hourly) : 3 units, becoming 4 units when they extend to Blackpool, or 5 units if they retain the lightly used Lime Street / South Parkway extension of the Blackpool/Preston services.

Yes, I was forgetting that the Warrington BQ services go to Victoria in the peak.
A lot depends on whether they change the timetable for the faster electrics, or just run the same basic timetable until the major change after Bolton route is wired.

 

[northwichcat]

Plus, eventually:
Liverpool - Preston (hourly) : 3 units, becoming 4 units when they extend to Blackpool, or 5 units if they retain the lightly used Lime Street / South Parkway extension of the Blackpool/Preston services.

According to Merseytravel the Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool North service will remain unchanged until the Preston-Blackpool North line gets closed for engineering works in December 2016.

 

[sprinterguy]

As a comparison, visually the 150s look a lot more spartan with bench seats for three. The 319 seats are OK when you get used to them.

Most(?) of the 319s are still fitted with the self same 3+2 Ashbourne seating that was fitted to the 150s from new.

They could probably make a reasonable attempt climbing from Bromsgrove to Barnt Green and reach a lot more than the 20mph that the lower geared 150 do.

The 150s will typically clear the top of the Lickey incline at 35 or perhaps 40mph after the Bromsgrove stop. Though it does seem like a real crawl from up front.

 

[northwichcat]

Most(?) of the 319s are still fitted with the self same 3+2 Ashbourne seating that was fitted to the 150s from new.

The 319/2s have had new interiors with 2+2 seating and tables: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/319217_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG and a lounge area: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe47-OzhsK0 but the ones transferring to Northern currently are all 319/3s, with the original style interiors.

 

[sprinterguy]

Operationally I see them a quite different since one is a 75mph unit suited for local services and the other is a 100mph unit which I think has been well suited to the Bedford-Brighton route. If the Bedford-Brighton route was not electrifed: it definetly would still have never been operated using 150s. Likewise: 150s don't operate fast services between Oxford and Paddington like the 319s have been recommended for.

They're both high density suburban commuter trains with, as you have already read, the same 20 metre mark 3 bodyshell fitted from new with a very similar internal layout of 3+2 Ashbourne seating.

The 150s have and continue to work services that can be considered more "regional" in nature (Transpennine, Birmingham to Hereford) than Bedford to Brighton or Oxford to London.
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The 319/2s have had new interiors with 2+2 seating and tables: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/319217_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG and a lounge area: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe47-OzhsK0 but the ones transferring to Northern currently are all 319/3s, with the original style interiors.

Indeed, only the small number of former Connex operated units have been refurbished to remove the old interior style as I understand it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They're both high density suburban commuter trains with, as you have already read, the same 20 metre mark 3 bodyshell fitted from new with a very similar internal layout of 3+2 Ashbourne seating.

The seating layout is different though, with 319/3s being back-to-back.
Seat spacing in the airline seats in 150s is miserable.
You don't get that "worse than a charter airline" feeling in a 319.
They also swallow luggage between the seats.

 

[northwichcat]

You don't get that "worse than a charter airline" feeling in a 319.

While people say the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair don't give you much leg room, there's just as much leg room as on a 350/4 or a 185 (or even more) and the seats are wider than they are on a Desiro. The difference is 3+3 seating on a plane feels more squashed up than 2+2 seating and also the much larger fold down table on a plane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While people say the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair don't give you much leg room, there's just as much leg room as on a 350/4 or a 185 (or even more) and the seats are wider than they are on a Desiro.

The key is not the width of the seat but also the gap between them, mainly for the issue of wide male shoulders.

Neil

 

[TEW]

The 319/2s have had new interiors with 2+2 seating and tables: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/319217_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG and a lounge area: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe47-OzhsK0 but the ones transferring to Northern currently are all 319/3s, with the original style interiors.

There are only 7 319/2s though, a pretty insignificant number when the fleet consists of 86 units. The lounge area is long gone too, with standard 3+2 seating fitted in that area now. The 319/3s are in a good condition internally (far superior to the 319/0s which Northern aren't getting, and the 319/2s which are not in a good state internally) and are an improvement on 142s and 150s. They are probably less comfortable than 156s which is an issue on the Manchester Airport-Liverpool run but at least there will be double the number of carriages.

 

[northwichcat]

They are probably less comfortable than 156s which is an issue on the Manchester Airport-Liverpool run but at least there will be double the number of carriages.

The problem there is the service doesn't really need double the number of carriages - just some extra luggage space.

So the North desperately needs extra carriages and will get 12 extra carriages but as a result only 6 carriages are used to strengthen services which need strengthening and the rest strengthen services which don't need strengthening just because the extra carriages will be in the form of 4 car 319s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A thought...would it take much conversion to modify a 319 TS to sit between two 150 DMSs?

 

[Class377/5]

A thought...would it take much conversion to modify a 319 TS to sit between two 150 DMSs?

You'd still have to alter the whole 319 as its equipment is spread out requiring major rewiring along with physically moving the stuff.

Its not feasible to simply alter the length of the 319s cheaply, look at the 458 conversation on a far newer stock has seen massive issues.