Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Class377/5]

It's possible, but there are major downsides to a 6 car 319.

Putting aside cost any costs involved and working out diagrams to allow best use, there is an issue with power to weight ratios.

4 car units have 2 powered bogies, both on the PMS (Pantograph Motor Standard). By adding two trailer cars to a 4 car unit, you are adding about 60t to the weight of the unit without increasing the power to move it. This will have a big effect on acceleration and possibly top speed.

4 car 319 has a single motor carriage. So a 6 car is going to need an additional one creating. As the 458/5 project has shown, craving up stock is rarely easy especially on to this level.

 

[AM9]

SDO doesn't prevent infrastructure changes. It may be the signalling needs altering or a turnback point needs moving to allow 8 cars to be used, regardless of whether or not all doors are opened at all stations.

Integrating 319s into the current infrastructure would involve a cocktail of changes, easements and even route changes. I imagine that there would be a couple of years experimentation with timetables in the period when existing passenger growth will be influenced by the sparks effect. If it is eventually decided that the odd route is just too difficult to adapt for 4-car stock even with SDO, then that may result in the introduction of a few shorter units before the bulk of the 319s are replaced. The alternative would be operating the difficult parts of the routes with existing DMUs that have been released by the 319s that are able to run onother lines.

You didn't but many other people have. You did, however, say "In time, the North will gradually get to use the 4-car stock effectively." which implied 4 car would be the norm.
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OK, read that as '.... get to use the (319) 4-car stock effectively' which is what this thread is about. There is no confirmation of any other EMU stock going to Northern.

 

[Llama]

319s are not going to be chopped and changed to anything other than their current four-car guise - to do so would require significant re-engineering.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Perhaps an interim solution to solving the 3 car problem should the sparks effect create capacity problem could be to draft in a few 313 sets when they become surplus to requirements especially on some shorter routes?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem in the North of England is that four-car sets are now something relatively unfamiliar in this area. As I said previously, I used to travel in the original four-car version of the Class 304 units before they became three-car units by the removal of the Trailer Composites.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do the 350/1s still have original seat covers? TPE's 185 seat covers got worn out and replaced but then TPE do have the highest seat occupancy rate of any operator. Virgin have also fitted new seat covers to the original Pendolinos (same colour as the old ones, like with TPE.) I've been on one of the older Southern 377s and it did look like it needed new seat covers.

Yes, though they are starting to look a bit worn.

Neil

 

[L+Y]

This is a question from an enthusiast, not an engineer, so apologies if it's a daft one.

Would the creation of a mixed fleet of three car and five car 319s not be a decent medium term solution? Or would a five car EMU be too heavy to get around?

 

[Nym]

This is a question from an enthusiast, not an engineer, so apologies if it's a daft one.

Would the creation of a mixed fleet of three car and five car 319s not be a decent medium term solution? Or would a five car EMU be too heavy to get around?

You'd have all the problems of moving equipment from the trailer car to elsewhere, an the remainder of the fleet at 5 car being too slow.

 

[Class 170101]

Perhaps an interim solution to solving the 3 car problem should the sparks effect create capacity problem could be to draft in a few 313 sets when they become surplus to requirements especially on some shorter routes?

Could move the 319s to the coastway (where the 313s are now) and send those and the GN ones north instead - GN 313s due for replacement in current TSGN franchise.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One of the problems with shortening the 319s is the fact that some equipment would need to be moved... Would this also be an issue for other Mk3-based AC EMUs? I'm thinking of 321/322s or 317s here, as presumably the 319s in 4-car formations would match the performance of these units, so could be swapped without affecting performance on GN or West Anglia services for example. There'd be crewing issues initially but that happens whenever stock is moved around.

 

[Viscount702]

Liverpool-Manchester electrification was announced in 2009 IIRC at the start of CP4. It was stated then that it would be operated by 319s. Electrification was then extended to the NW then TP.

It has been known for a long time 4 car units were to be used. Why then have the platform lengths as extended both completed and proposed not been to cater for multiples of 4 car units rather than 6. Shortening units to 3 car benefits no one other than Poterbrook and of course they would press for changes to be made.

 

[Olaf]

The problem in the North of England is that four-car sets are now something relatively unfamiliar in this area. As I said previously, I used to travel in the original four-car version of the Class 304 units before they became three-car units by the removal of the Trailer Composites.

I was under the impression that the RUS recommended four-cars for many services to accommodate the projected growth as part of the enhancements exercise; are comments otherwise placing too much emphasis on how things are, not the eventual outcome will need to be?

 

[physics34]

319s are not going to be chopped and changed to anything other than their current four-car guise - to do so would require significant re-engineering.

yeah, true, the compressor and the toilets are on the trailer standard.... although there would be more room under the motor coach with the removal of the 750v DC equipment it would be expensive to do.

 

[Geeves]

I think people are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Four cars will be fine for the peak services and if in the distant future they ever wanted to run 8 cars, Victoria, Piccadilly, Bolton, Preston, Liverpool and Blackpool can all handle that and more.

Make for some nice 8 car express jobs!

 

[WatcherZero]

No, four cars while ok for offpeak wouldn't be able to cope with peak by the end of the decade (and even today on some lines).

The people proposing to shorten them to three cars are their owners Porterbrook.

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf

 

[Bantamzen]

I think everyone accepts that 4 coaches during the off-peak is overkill, just as it is between Leeds and Doncaster and, from what I have seen, between Bradford and Ilkley.

Don't forget though that the Bradford-Ilkley services don't run in isolation, so those units work all of the Aire & Wharfe routes at some point during the day. And very occasionally even the Ilkley run benefits from 4 car operation, such as the recent Tour de France when all services were rammed to the teeth. Plus, with major developments in Bradford city centre in the coming years, don't be surprised if the flow increases substantially into BDQ in the future.

As for Leeds-Doncaster, well again having 4 car units can come in handy if there are special events going on, or if there are any problems on the ECML.

But what we have available is 4 car electric units that can add capacity to the current 2 car units operating 'full and standing' at peak time, and around the same capacity as the occasional 4 car diagrams, on soon to be electrified routes and those 2 car units can go onto other lines that need them.

Indeed, whilst we would refer new stock the 319s are what are available now & can be pressed into service as soon as the sparks go live. And they will add capacity to the routes they will operate, meaning not only can some 2 car units be pressed into use where they are desperately needed but they 319s additional off-peak capacity might just encourage more use over time.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

yeah, true, the compressor and the toilets are on the trailer standard.... although there would be more room under the motor coach with the removal of the 750v DC equipment it would be expensive to do.

Unless the 319s will see out the rest of their working lives there, the 3rd rail equipment is best left in place, to give more flexibility as who who the next TOC to use them is

 

[Aictos]

365s and 350/1s had 3rd rail equipment removed and stored so why should 319s be treated any differently?

 

[AM9]

All this talk of 4-cars being overkill off-peak, whilst making some case for major reconfiguration work to m ake them 3-car. Even if there is no growth and a few of the 319s are running as overkill for 10 years, I doubt that that would be more costly than the modifications and the diagramming inconveniences that would result.
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Unless the 319s will see out the rest of their working lives there, the 3rd rail equipment is best left in place, to give more flexibility as who who the next TOC to use them is

Once they are established in service, assuming there are no significant operational issues, they will stay there until they are retired. They may of course get a cosmetic update as a sweetener in a future TOC bid.

 

[northwichcat]

The people proposing to shorten them to three cars are their owners Porterbrook.

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf

Which is in response to Network Rail route analysis saying 6 cars will be required on the Bolton corridor at peak time.
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I was under the impression that the RUS recommended four-cars for many services to accommodate the projected growth as part of the enhancements exercise; are comments otherwise placing too much emphasis on how things are, not the eventual outcome will need to be?

Which RUS are you talking about and which lines were they referring to? 4 car services stopping at the likes of Marsden will probably be very welcome, given currently 4 car provision isn't provided for despite it being needed. However, some services operating via Bolton are already 4 car and need more capacity. Like I've already said a 'one solution fits all' won't work.
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There is no confirmation of any other EMU stock going to Northern.

Agreed. However, any talk of 319s operating Preston/Blackpool services isn't confirmed as 319s have only been confirmed for Liverpool to Wigan/Manchester services at present.
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My comments over the 387 is based on the 377/6 seating where you can feel the seat base as it has pretty much no padding. Its just a cover over the plastic seat.

Ah right. originally you said plastic seats which suggested something like this: http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/13717/wm/pd3200588.jpg rather than something more like German S-Bahn stock.

 

[Class377/5]

Ah right. originally you said plastic seats which suggested something like this: http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/13717/wm/pd3200588.jpg rather than something more like German S-Bahn stock.

Seems some assumed way too much and actually missed my point over comfort. So I'll make it again.

Northern's area does require investment but it needs a new approach to get that investment. I wonder what the commuters of the north would make of some 387s that have plastic seats without padding making trips over 30mins painful (worse than I remember the bus seats on the pacer being).

The seats are plastic (as all new modern stock) but have no padding unlike most trains. On the new Bombardier built trains Southern has ordered you can feel the base. I doubt anyone would suggest these are comfortable and I truly believe that if you replaced trains in the north there would be an out cry.

And before people say they are only metro units, well they are used on coastal services at weekends and are now to be used on Bedford to Brighton where trips of 90mins are not uncommon.

 

[northwichcat]

The seats are plastic (as all new modern stock) but have no padding unlike most trains.

Surely the cloth must provide limited padding unless it's a thin as a shirt, in which case it'll wear out in a couple of months?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The seats are plastic (as all new modern stock) but have no padding unlike most trains. On the new Bombardier built trains Southern has ordered you can feel the base. I doubt anyone would suggest these are comfortable and I truly believe that if you replaced trains in the north there would be an outcry.

Were experts retained to advise on the seating that was provided in those units to which you allude in your posting above?

 

[Class377/5]

Surely the cloth must provide limited padding unless it's a thin as a shirt, in which case it'll wear out in a couple of months?

From new, when you sit you feel the plastic base of the seat. It properly does offer limited padding but being able go feel the plastic isn't what I call padding.

And for reference I've done Brighton to Victoria and Milton Keynes to Clapham on them.

 

[WatcherZero]

Similar seats on bombardier trams i think, it is padded but not to a high degree. Kind of takes the edge off so that you dont feel your sitting on a solid surface but not to the extent of being a comfortable seat.

 

[northwichcat]

Similar seats on bombardier trams i think, it is padded but not to a high degree. Kind of takes the edge off so that you dont feel your sitting on a solid surface but not to the extent of being a comfortable seat.

So a bit like the M5000s replacing DMUs on the Oldham Loop then? Was there the outcry that Class377/5 suggests? I seem to recall there was a big fuss but that was about big fare increases.

 

[WatcherZero]

Passengers in first year of oldham were double(2m) what they were in last year of heavy(1m). Think frequency benefit outweighed loss of comfort. No real moans about comfort, altricham passengers did when they first entered service replacing comfier seats of t68 though. Its one of those things that i think general public just accepts wheras a pickier enthusiast suggests it could be done better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think given the overcrowding problem on the MK-Clapham-Croydon service passengers are glad of the extra coach (8 car in the peak, I noted a few weeks ago) regardless of the type of seating.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Think frequency benefit outweighed loss of comfort.

Really? Oldham had a train every 15 minutes to an advertised timetable, now it's got a tram that's just advertised as 'every 12 minutes' with the actual timetable being deeply buried in transportdirect.info but even if you find it trams are allowed to depart up to 2 minutes early to keep them spaced out in the city centre. OK Oldham will get a tram every 6 minutes but it's not happened yet.

Passengers in first year of oldham were double(2m) what they were in last year of heavy(1m)

Do forget ticket-less travel is a much smaller problem on Metrolink due to ticket machines at all stops and a fine for not using them.

Just checked and Oldham Mumps had a 31.5% increase in usage in it's final full year as heavy rail (08/09) so passenger numbers were shooting up before the conversion.

 

[Class377/5]

I think given the overcrowding problem on the MK-Clapham-Croydon service passengers are glad of the extra coach (8 car in the peak, I noted a few weeks ago) regardless of the type of seating.

Neil

The 8 cars have completely different seating from the new 5 cars. But the longer trains are very welcome.