Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the references in postings for the Class 319 units to run in tandem as an 8-car train, can someone remind me exactly how many of these units are scheduled to be transferred to Northern Rail and of the currently-known period that has been scheduled for this to so occur. Also what is the currently-known updating that these said units will be receiving prior to such a transfer.

I'm not sure there is any plan to run 8-car 319 sets on the services out of Liverpool.
Very few of the of the current services are other than 2-car and a 4-car all-day service will be a big increase in capacity.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the difference is running 8 car services with cascaded units allows for passenger growth while properly costing the same as new 4 car stock. The 8 car allows for extra revenue to fund the higher costs while the just getting new stock doesn't generate any extra money.

An over provision of capacity doesn't always result in growth. The off-peak Alderley Edge-Piccadilly services have never needed a unit as big as a 323 with up to around 280 seats and despite having an over provision of capacity passenger numbers have grown a lot less on that line compared to other lines like the Buxton, Southport and Mid-Cheshire lines.

Northern could always take Virgin's approach and offer extremely cheap Advance tickets on services that they know will have numerous empty seats (which would be mainly electric services), that would increase revenue even if the average fare taken drops significantly.

 

[Class377/5]

An over provision of capacity doesn't always result in growth. The off-peak Alderley Edge-Piccadilly services have never needed a unit as big as a 323 with up to around 280 seats and despite having an over provision of capacity passenger numbers have grown a lot less on that line compared to other lines like the Buxton, Southport and Mid-Cheshire lines.

Northern could always take Virgin's approach and offer extremely cheap Advance tickets on services that they know will have numerous empty seats (which would be mainly electric services), that would increase revenue even if the average fare taken drops significantly.

I didn't say it did. I said it allows for passenger growth which has been happening in the Northern franchise area regardless of fleet capacity. Again it depends on the lines as some in the NW are going to need to be made longer and making decisions now will allow for the growth over the next 10-20 years.

 

[WatcherZero]

An over provision of capacity doesn't always result in growth. The off-peak Alderley Edge-Piccadilly services have never needed a unit as big as a 323 with up to around 280 seats and despite having an over provision of capacity passenger numbers have grown a lot less on that line compared to other lines like the Buxton, Southport and Mid-Cheshire lines.

Northern could always take Virgin's approach and offer extremely cheap Advance tickets on services that they know will have numerous empty seats (which would be mainly electric services), that would increase revenue even if the average fare taken drops significantly.

Its essentially what Abellio Scotrail is doing too, £5 advance fares, annual RPI -1% fare drops, 23% increase in capacity.

 

[childwallblues]

Off Peak Alderley Edge to Piccadilly is a poor example to pick. There are plenty of other trains both via Stockport and Manchester Airport which are faster and therefore which passengers head to.

 

[northwichcat]

Off Peak Alderley Edge to Piccadilly is a poor example to pick. There are plenty of other trains both via Stockport and Manchester Airport which are faster and therefore which passengers head to.

I was picking an example of where 'a one size train fits all' approach results in a massive over provision of capacity on some services and hasn't consequently resulted in huge growth levels seen on other routes.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The 323s are only generally used on all/most stops services and some of the services they operate are very well utilised.

 

[deltic08]

I didn't say it did. I said it allows for passenger growth which has been happening in the Northern franchise area regardless of fleet capacity. Again it depends on the lines as some in the NW are going to need to be made longer and making decisions now will allow for the growth over the next 10-20 years.

In response to criticism from the "Pack" for my decision to boycott Northern services as a result of evening peak surcharges, I bought a £10 Day Ranger ticket yesterday to view NW electrification progress. The two busiest trains I used were on lines where electrification is not even on the radar.

The 09.47 Harrogate-Leeds internally filthy, grime encrusted 4-car Pacers was full and standing on arrival at Leeds from Horsforth and Burley Park calls. The connecting 10.51 Leeds-Bradford-Man Vic 2-car 158 was 40% full throughout.

The next train, a single 150 unit from Man Vic to Blackpool North, had no more than seven passengers in my coach and only two remained when I alighted at Leyland. The single 156 unit from here to Huyton was very lightly loaded even after the Wigan stop. Another 156 from Huyton to Man Vic was equally lightly loaded which probably allowed for a spirited run from Newton to Patricroft well in excess of the unit official speed limit before braking for Chat Moss.

The 15.45 Man Vic-Bradford-Leeds 158/153 combo was full and standing as far as Rochdale and comfortably full to Hebden Bridge.

The 2-car only 16.59 Leeds-Knaresborough was still in the platform at 17.15 probably because of overloading. Due to the 16.59 only being 2-car, the following 17.21 pair of 150s Leeds-Harrogate-York was rammed. Recent resignalling to Harrogate allowed the 17.21 to leave on a single yellow behind the 16.59 but checked before Burley Road.

From what I saw, are 4-car 319s really necessary off peak in the NW when a single 150 or 156 are less than half full. Further electrification and 4-car 319s East of the Pennines will not be enough for growth anytime of day.

 

[Class 170101]

Frequency of service will have an impact on loadings.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....From what I saw, are 4-car 319s really necessary off peak in the NW when a single 150 or 156 are less than half full. Further electrification and 4-car 319s East of the Pennines will not be enough for growth anytime of day.

I think everyone accepts that 4 coaches during the off-peak is overkill, just as it is between Leeds and Doncaster and, from what I have seen, between Bradford and Ilkley.

But what we have available is 4 car electric units that can add capacity to the current 2 car units operating 'full and standing' at peak time, and around the same capacity as the occasional 4 car diagrams, on soon to be electrified routes and those 2 car units can go onto other lines that need them.

 

[deltic08]

I think everyone accepts that 4 coaches during the off-peak is overkill, just as it is between Leeds and Doncaster and, from what I have seen, between Bradford and Ilkley.

But what we have available is 4 car electric units that can add capacity to the current 2 car units operating 'full and standing' at peak time, and around the same capacity as the occasional 4 car diagrams, on soon to be electrified routes and those 2 car units can go onto other lines that need them.

Fine, but what happens when four cars are not enough and stations on a route are only five/six cars long? I still think four car 319s are a bit of a pigs ear in the North and only agreed to justify the business case for new stock on Thameslink. Please don't trot out that 319s can't be fitted for ATO in the core section. They could be with fitting of proposed new traction package.

The North needs some new build three-car electric units, doubled up in the peaks as well as 319s.

 

[Class377/5]

Fine, but what happens when four cars are not enough and stations on a route are only five/six cars long? I still think four car 319s are a bit of a pigs ear in the North and only agreed to justify the business case for new stock on Thameslink. Please don't trot out that 319s can't be fitted for ATO in the core section. They could be with fitting of proposed new traction package.

The North needs some new build three-car electric units, doubled up in the peaks as well as 319s.

The business case for new stock on Thameslink isn't dependent on finding a new use for the 319s. In fact scrapping them doesn't affect Thameslink's business case, however the business case of the NW wires is fully dependent on cascaded stock.

The 319s can't be reused in the project, even if they could refitted for ATO (not gonna happen ever despite your comments) and faster running they still are unsuitable due to the doors being too small. The 319s can let two people on/off at a time, the 700s wider doors allow three. Major rebuild to achieve everything would cost more than new trains. Fact that every manufacturer developed new designs as none believed their state of the art 2008 models were suitable shows just how far off the mark your comments are.

Northern's area does require investment but it needs a new approach to get that investment. I wonder what the commuters of the north would make of some 387s that have plastic seats without padding making trips over 30mins painful (worse than I remember the bus seats on the pacer being).

 

[AM9]

Fine, but what happens when four cars are not enough and stations on a route are only five/six cars long? I still think four car 319s are a bit of a pigs ear in the North and only agreed to justify the business case for new stock on Thameslink. Please don't trot out that 319s can't be fitted for ATO in the core section. They could be with fitting of proposed new traction package.

The North needs some new build three-car electric units, doubled up in the peaks as well as 319s.

In time, the North will gradually get to use the 4-car stock effectively. It may be by SDO or lengthening platforms where 6-car trains can currently be used to 8-car to handle growth.
It's that old broken record again, 'this or that isn't perfect on the 319s so we must have new build units'. Just take the 319s, feel the benefit of an electric service and the minor bugs will be driven out pretty quickly. The 319s won't last forever so there will be some shiny new trains for you to play with when your fares rise to somewhere near those in the south-east to pay for them.

 

[driver_m]

In time, the North will gradually get to use the 4-car stock effectively. It may be by SDO or lengthening platforms where 6-car trains can currently be used to 8-car to handle growth.
It's that old broken record again, 'this or that isn't perfect on the 319s so we must have new build units'. Just take the 319s, feel the benefit of an electric service and the minor bugs will be driven out pretty quickly. The 319s won't last forever so there will be some shiny new trains for you to play with when your fares rise to somewhere near those in the south-east to pay for them.

Likewise, your repeating another broken record with that fares barb. Give it a rest all of you before this goes off topic yet again.

 

[Starmill]

The 319s won't last forever so there will be some shiny new trains for you to play with when your fares rise to somewhere near those in the south-east to pay for them.

A lot of our restrictions are much harsher than yours now. So actually some might say there are many flows where our fares are higher than yours
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Northern's area does require investment but it needs a new approach to get that investment. I wonder what the commuters of the north would make of some 387s that have plastic seats without padding making trips over 30mins painful (worse than I remember the bus seats on the pacer being).

I've never understood why 'the commuters of the south' aren't more angry about them. Horrible seats, no wifi nor power sockets, no tables, no toilets, not even carpets...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think everyone accepts that 4 coaches during the off-peak is overkill, just as it is between Leeds and Doncaster and, from what I have seen, between Bradford and Ilkley.

But what we have available is 4 car electric units that can add capacity to the current 2 car units operating 'full and standing' at peak time, and around the same capacity as the occasional 4 car diagrams, on soon to be electrified routes and those 2 car units can go onto other lines that need them.

Being the age that I am, I can still remember the Class 304 units originally being a 4-car set (with a small first class section with its own private WC) then being reduced to a 3-car set (without those benefits).

 

[47802]

Northern's area does require investment but it needs a new approach to get that investment. I wonder what the commuters of the north would make of some 387s that have plastic seats without padding making trips over 30mins painful (worse than I remember the bus seats on the pacer being).

Wow it must be hell for those southern commuters with a brand new air conditioned train. OK ive not as yet tried a 377/6-387 seat but I don't see it being worse than a the variants of Rail Bus seat, or some other modern seats for that matter.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Fine, but what happens when four cars are not enough and stations on a route are only five/six cars long? I still think four car 319s are a bit of a pigs ear in the North and only agreed to justify the business case for new stock on Thameslink. Please don't trot out that 319s can't be fitted for ATO in the core section. They could be with fitting of proposed new traction package....

What happens when 3 car trains replace 4 car diagrams because 6 car trains won't fit into a 5 car platform?

Not only would you be spending money shortening the 319s, but also lengthing the platforms or fitting SDO equipment.

Northern needs units, it doesn't really matter if they are new, they just have to add capacity. When the time is right they will be replaced, as the units in West Yorkshire were, what matters is that things progress.

I'm sure the 319s could be fitted with ATO, but have you considered that the idea for Thameslink is 12 car peak time trains and there's only 86 319s? If you going to have to order new trains and you need some units in the northern area as well, it makes more sense to have one type of unit in each area. Having a mixed fleet running in such close proximity on Thameslink is asking for trouble.

....The North needs some new build three-car electric units, doubled up in the peaks as well as 319s.

New units and old units? I really don't see a need for that. If they got new 3 car units for use in 3 car (off-peak) and 6 car (peak) formation, they wouldn't need the 319s!

Being the age that I am, I can still remember the Class 304 units originally being a 4-car set (with a small first class section with its own private WC) then being reduced to a 3-car set (without those benefits).

319s are a little more complex than 304s. Porterbrook lists more than 20 items of equipment that would need a new home for a 319 to become 3 car (two of which are the toilet(s) and the retention tank), that's more cost for little benefit.

 

[47802]

I don't see there was really any alternative but to replace the 319's on Thameslink, as has been said you would have needed 2 types of train long term which would be undesirable, you need a modern high capacity highly reliable train through the core to minimise delays, choosing fixed length trains has benefits with less cabs and other duplications giving more space, and with the slightly undesirable feature of Thameslink of having the AC/DC change, doing this on 1 train with one pantograph should have less potential problems than with up to 3 trains in multiple with 3 pantographs.

Lets face it Thameslink is a bit of a cheapo bodge solution, its not the ideal solution you would choose if you were building from scratch with a big budget.

4 car 319's are not really an issue in the current franchise but will probably need to be looked for the new franchise

 

[northwichcat]

In time, the North will gradually get to use the 4-car stock effectively. It may be by SDO or lengthening platforms where 6-car trains can currently be used to 8-car to handle growth.

It's not just lengthening platforms though.

As already mentioned Network Rail spent £12m at Salford Crescent for the purpose of 6 car 185s stopping there, as there were a lot of infrastructure changes required to allow for longer platforms.

Alliance Rail looked at stopping their open access services at Winsford, which currently has a platform barely long enough for a 4 car 350. While there is ample spare land around the station there's a reason why the proposed platform extensions and new large car park would have costed a lot more than Alliance had hoped - subsidence from salt mining in the area.

There isn't a 'one solution fits all' with other franchises - Southern have a mix of 3 and 4 car EMUs (and will soon have 5 car EMUs), LM have a mix of 3 and 4 car EMUs, as do Scotrail, while SWT have a wide variety of different length trains and services. Yet some people seem keen on the idea of Northern getting 319s and losing their 323s and say in defence 'the South works to a 4 car railway so the North can change to a 4 car railway' when the South doesn't operate to a 4 car railway in a lot of cases.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I saw, are 4-car 319s really necessary off peak in the NW when a single 150 or 156 are less than half full. Further electrification and 4-car 319s East of the Pennines will not be enough for growth anytime of day.

There are some services Manchester-Bolton and Liverpool-Wigan which need 4 car off-peak currently.

To me your reasoning sounds flawed. You caught some peak and shoulder peak services in Yorkshire and compared them to some of the middle of the day services in the North West. You need to catch services at different times of the day on different days of the week to get an accurate representation of how busy a line is.

Not that long ago a group of people from Bradford were on the 16:17 Manchester-Chester, which loaded around 170 on a 2 car Pacer. One of them commented on it being the busiest train he'd ever been on. Now can you conclude from that the Mid-Cheshire line is busier than Calder Vale or the Wharfedale line? No. If he'd boarded the 09:17 Manchester-Chester he'd have got a 4 car train with around 80 people on (the 2 carriages on the back are in lieu of an ECS move.) Conversely if he'd boarded the 07:17 Manchester-Chester he would have got around 280 on a 2 car 150, which is probably the most overcrowded train Northern run and not a typical loading for a Northern service in the area. However, possibly the person in question is used to getting a emptyish 333 from Bradford.

 

[AM9]

It's not just lengthening platforms though.

As already mentioned Network Rail spent £12m at Salford Crescent for the purpose of 6 car 185s stopping there, as there were a lot of infrastructure changes required to allow for longer platforms.

Alliance Rail looked at stopping their open access services at Winsford, which currently has a platform barely long enough for a 4 car 350. While there is ample spare land around the station there's a reason why the proposed platform extensions and new large car park would have costed a lot more than Alliance had hoped - subsidence from salt mining in the area.

There isn't a 'one solution fits all' with other franchises - Southern have a mix of 3 and 4 car EMUs (and will soon have 5 car EMUs), LM have a mix of 3 and 4 car EMUs, as do Scotrail, while SWT have a wide variety of different length trains and services. Yet some people seem keen on the idea of Northern getting 319s and losing their 323s and say in defence 'the South works to a 4 car railway so the North can change to a 4 car railway' when the South doesn't operate to a 4 car railway in a lot of cases.
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There are some services Manchester-Bolton and Liverpool-Wigan which need 4 car off-peak currently..

I said "It may be by SDO or lengthening platforms where 6-car trains can currently be used to 8-car to handle growth". Change that to 'and/or'. From day 1 the 319s will be 4-car and best use will be made of them. If during their remaining 5-10 year service l;ife it is decided to modify some of them to SDO and/or 3-car, their application to services as currently operated may better meet needs. If as expected, passenger traffic changes following electrification, as has happened almost everywhere else in the UK, (waits for barrage of anecdotal exceptions) the stock for the region will be adapted to suit. The major decision will be how late into the service life of the trains such modifications with their inevitably marginal cost benefits will be sanctioned.
As far as 323s are concerned, I haven't expressed a view on their deployment since I believe it was you that pointed out the unusual nature of the Glossop/Hadfield lines.
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Likewise, your repeating another broken record with that fares barb. Give it a rest all of you before this goes off topic yet again.

I don't agree that the fares should rise if the passenger traffic demands higher performance stock. Just be careful what you wish for with this constant desire for 'new' trains as that will be used as an excuse for higher fares. The 700s may be new trains, but they will be high density suburban fit with relatively hard seats. So they will have AC. That's because they go underground with up to 1200 passengers. There would probably be H & S issues in the future if there weren't reasonable measures taken. Just look at the pasting in the courts that FCC could have had.
They are being designed for maximum capacity and reliability on a very busy route. Once the smell of newness dissipates, the complaints will pour in regarding creature comforts. Indeed, it already has in local rags around here.

 

[deltic08]

What happens when 3 car trains replace 4 car diagrams because 6 car trains won't fit into a 5 car platform?

Not only would you be spending money shortening the 319s, but also lengthing the platforms or fitting SDO equipment.

Northern needs units, it doesn't really matter if they are new, they just have to add capacity. When the time is right they will be replaced, as the units in West Yorkshire were, what matters is that things progress.

Nowhere have I suggested shortening 319s to three cars as I agree with you that Northern needs coaches. I only suggested new build three car sets for services that operate currently as two cars off peak with not enough passengers to fill a class 153 as I experienced on a Man Vic-Blackpool North service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are some services Manchester-Bolton and Liverpool-Wigan which need 4 car off-peak currently.

To me your reasoning sounds flawed. You caught some peak and shoulder peak services in Yorkshire and compared them to some of the middle of the day services in the North West. You need to catch services at different times of the day on different days of the week to get an accurate representation of how busy a line is.

Not that long ago a group of people from Bradford were on the 16:17 Manchester-Chester, which loaded around 170 on a 2 car Pacer. One of them commented on it being the busiest train he'd ever been on. Now can you conclude from that the Mid-Cheshire line is busier than Calder Vale or the Wharfedale line? No. If he'd boarded the 09:17 Manchester-Chester he'd have got a 4 car train with around 80 people on (the 2 carriages on the back are in lieu of an ECS move.) Conversely if he'd boarded the 07:17 Manchester-Chester he would have got around 280 on a 2 car 150, which is probably the most overcrowded train Northern run and not a typical loading for a Northern service in the area. However, possibly the person in question is used to getting a emptyish 333 from Bradford.

Peak, shoulder peak and off peak trains on the Leeds-Harrogate services are all double units except for a handful because of usage. This is not so on the Man Vic-Blackpool North train I used which was at one point on the journey a Manchester-Bolton service so I don't agree with you there. A 319 would be total over provision so some new build three cars are needed.
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I'm not sure there is any plan to run 8-car 319 sets on the services out of Liverpool.
Very few of the of the current services are other than 2-car and a 4-car all-day service will be a big increase in capacity.

Exactly. I agree with you. That is why I suggested to others on this post that some new build three car units are needed as 319s would be over provision on some routes.

 

[physics34]

Wow it must be hell for those southern commuters with a brand new air conditioned train. OK ive not as yet tried a 377/6-387 seat but I don't see it being worse than a the variants of Rail Bus seat, or some other modern seats for that matter.

the seats are good for being high backed but yes they are much harder than a rail bus seat.

 

[northwichcat]

I said "It may be by SDO or lengthening platforms where 6-car trains can currently be used to 8-car to handle growth".

SDO doesn't prevent infrastructure changes. It may be the signalling needs altering or a turnback point needs moving to allow 8 cars to be used, regardless of whether or not all doors are opened at all stations.

If during their remaining 5-10 year service l;ife it is decided to modify some of them to SDO and/or 3-car, their application to services as currently operated may better meet needs.

Well a 3 car option has been looked in to but it will be more costly than reforming other types of EMU, especially considering at present there's no where for the redundant carriages to go with 5 car 319s being a non-starter.

As far as 323s are concerned, I haven't expressed a view on their deployment since I believe it was you that pointed out the unusual nature of the Glossop/Hadfield lines.

You didn't but many other people have. You did, however, say "In time, the North will gradually get to use the 4-car stock effectively." which implied 4 car would be the norm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern's area does require investment but it needs a new approach to get that investment. I wonder what the commuters of the north would make of some 387s that have plastic seats without padding making trips over 30mins painful (worse than I remember the bus seats on the pacer being).

Do you have an image of the new 387 interior with plastic seating? Given they aren't in passenger service yet I'm surprised you've made a 30 minute journey on one. Maybe you travelled on a half-finished one?

I wondered whether you meant 378s but I'm sure they have London Underground style seating with padding, which is luxury compared to both the Rome Metro and the Roma Lido Railway that I recently travelled on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

the seats are good for being high backed but yes they are much harder than a rail bus seat.

Will any attention be paid to the fitting of more comfortable seat padding at the time of "upgrading" ?

 

[northwichcat]

Will any attention be paid to the fitting of more comfortable seat padding at the time of "upgrading" ?

In Germany it's common for 'long lasting' to be considered more important than 'comfortable' and we keep going to German companies for new trains (Siemens and Bombardier Transportation both have German HQs.) While the manufacturers will offer a choice, maybe they sell the firmer long lasting option as either the best option or the cheapest option in the long term?

 

[Class 170101]

Well a 3 car option has been looked in to but it will be more costly than reforming other types of EMU, especially considering at present there's no where for the redundant carriages to go with 5 car 319s being a non-starter.

I guess it isn't possible to have a mix of (fixed) 3 and (fixed) 6 car 319s formations in a similar way that EMT have done with their Class 222 Meridians?

(in effect 2 centre cars removed equalling 2x three car Class 319s and one 6 car Class 319 with addition of the two removed centre cars).

 

[Class377/5]

Wow it must be hell for those southern commuters with a brand new air conditioned train. OK ive not as yet tried a 377/6-387 seat but I don't see it being worse than a the variants of Rail Bus seat, or some other modern seats for that matter.

I don't ever remember getting back pain on a Pacer. The 377/6, /7 and 387/1 seating does that.

Do you have an image of the new 387 interior with plastic seating? Given they aren't in passenger service yet I'm surprised you've made a 30 minute journey on one. Maybe you travelled on a half-finished one?

I wondered whether you meant 378s but I'm sure they have London Underground style seating with padding, which is luxury compared to both the Rome Metro and the Roma Lido Railway that I recently travelled on.

My comments over the 387 is based on the 377/6 seating where you can feel the seat base as it has pretty much no padding. Its just a cover over the plastic seat.

I do have interior shots of units but I'm not allowed to share sorry. But the 387/1 have the 377/6 seating. This link ill how you the seating from 102.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60628514@N02/14859391108/

The 378 is more comfortable than the 377/6 seating. At least the 700 have some padding making them far more comfortable (thy share the same seat base) so its not impossible.

In Germany it's common for 'long lasting' to be considered more important than 'comfortable' and we keep going to German companies for new trains (Siemens and Bombardier Transportation both have German HQs.) While the manufacturers will offer a choice, maybe they sell the firmer long lasting option as either the best option or the cheapest option in the long term?

Seating is modular so it can be changed according to who is ordering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Germany it's common for 'long lasting' to be considered more important than 'comfortable' and we keep going to German companies for new trains (Siemens and Bombardier Transportation both have German HQs.) While the manufacturers will offer a choice, maybe they sell the firmer long lasting option as either the best option or the cheapest option in the long term?

I personally find the Class 350s to be both comfortable and long-lasting. Were it not for the filthy carpets (vinyl flooring would make far more sense for regional units, and you could make it look nice by using wood-effect or similar), it'd be hard to tell that the 350/1s are something like 10 years old now. Whereas the older Southern Electrostars are starting to look very tired indeed.

That said, the VT Pendolinos are also wearing very well, the earliest ones being over 10 years old now. It's genuinely hard to tell if you're in an old or new one.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I guess it isn't possible to have a mix of (fixed) 3 and (fixed) 6 car 319s formations in a similar way that EMT have done with their Class 222 Meridians?

(in effect 2 centre cars removed equalling 2x three car Class 319s and one 6 car Class 319 with addition of the two removed centre cars).

It's possible, but there are major downsides to a 6 car 319.

Putting aside cost any costs involved and working out diagrams to allow best use, there is an issue with power to weight ratios.

4 car units have 2 powered bogies, both on the PMS (Pantograph Motor Standard). By adding two trailer cars to a 4 car unit, you are adding about 60t to the weight of the unit without increasing the power to move it. This will have a big effect on acceleration and possibly top speed.

 

[northwichcat]

I personally find the Class 350s to be both comfortable and long-lasting. Were it not for the filthy carpets (vinyl flooring would make far more sense for regional units, and you could make it look nice by using wood-effect or similar), it'd be hard to tell that the 350/1s are something like 10 years old now. Whereas the older Southern Electrostars are starting to look very tired indeed.

That said, the VT Pendolinos are also wearing very well, the earliest ones being over 10 years old now. It's genuinely hard to tell if you're in an old or new one.

Neil

Do the 350/1s still have original seat covers? TPE's 185 seat covers got worn out and replaced but then TPE do have the highest seat occupancy rate of any operator. Virgin have also fitted new seat covers to the original Pendolinos (same colour as the old ones, like with TPE.) I've been on one of the older Southern 377s and it did look like it needed new seat covers.