Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[L+Y]

Anyone got any idea how the refresh of the 319s is going at Wolverton, and when a refreshed example might emerge?

 

[Class377/5]

Anyone got any idea how the refresh of the 319s is going at Wolverton, and when a refreshed example might emerge?

First one is due out at any moment. Will try and get an update tomorrow.

 

[user15681]

First one is due out at any moment. Will try and get an update tomorrow.

Northern's or GTR's? There's a STP 5M81 Wolverton C S to Bedford tomorrow morning, but is only a Q path.

 

[Class377/5]

Northern's or GTR's? There's a STP 5M81 Wolverton C S to Bedford tomorrow morning, but is only a Q path.

Either actually.

 

[Class83]

Given the delay to the wires, would it not be a good opportunity to refurbish the units now? Otherwise we're presumably waiting until more have been freed up than are needed to allow them to be swapped out.

On the capacity issues, 1 toilet per 4 car would presumably be enough for the Liverpool/Manchester commuter routes they're going to be on. Probably not for Settle-Carlisle, but I don't expect that will be wired soon. Don't think there are many 4 car diagrams on the initial routes, but there are also some pacers floating about so 4*20m will be a step up anyway. Would be useful if Platforms were planned to allow 8*20m for Liverpool to Manchester Airport and Liverpool to Blackpool as these are semi fast services not stopping at every village.

 

[Class377/5]

Its around a 35 day work load, but you need time to order the parts. The Northern units are booked in for new loos but not just yet. Remember there's two work streams at Wolverton. The Northern sponsored work to get them ready and Porterbrook work on getting the units ready for 2020.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think 1 toilet on a 4 car unit in the North would work. With a lack of station toilets and some rural stations the on board toilets get very well used on some services. It'll probably be one accessible toilet and one non-accessible one.
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No but the idea is the 319s are supposed to provide much needed extra capacity to the North. With LM they got accessible 23.8m class 172 carriages to replace non-accessible 20m class 150 carriages.

Clearly a 319 will add extra capacity if the DMUs are kept as more 2 car DMU workings may be able to become four car DMU workings

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the capacity issues, 1 toilet per 4 car would presumably be enough for the Liverpool/Manchester commuter routes they're going to be on. Probably not for Settle-Carlisle, but I don't expect that will be wired soon. Don't think there are many 4 car diagrams on the initial routes, but there are also some pacers floating about so 4*20m will be a step up anyway. Would be useful if Platforms were planned to allow 8*20m for Liverpool to Manchester Airport and Liverpool to Blackpool as these are semi fast services not stopping at every village.

Euxton, Leyland, Kirkham and Poulton are all limited to 4/5 coaches.
Wavertree and Newton le Willows are only 5 too, St Helens Jn 6.
So 8-car working is out for now.
There will be a lot of empty seats in 4-car trains outside the peaks.
On any one day there seems to be just one diagram worked by 2x2-car DMUs out of Liverpool via Huyton, usually Pacers, but very rarely to Blackpool or the Airport.
Blackpool seems to be monopolised by 150s these days.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think 1 toilet on a 4 car unit in the North would work. With a lack of station toilets and some rural stations the on board toilets get very well used on some services. It'll probably be one accessible toilet and one non-accessible one.

Interesting thought. The 319s were built with two small toilets opposite each other in the TSO. According to the Porterbrook brochure 319/3 has the same vehicle rebuilt with one standard and one "partially compliant" wheelchair toilet, and the others all retain the original arrangement. So perhaps the 319/3 arrangement will be used if this can be modified for full compliance.

The TSO is also the vehicle that would be removed if they were reduced to 3-car, so any shortened units would need a toilet installing in another vehicle (probably one of the driving trailers) or would end up without.

 

[fgwrich]

Interesting thought. The 319s were built with two small toilets opposite each other in the TSO. According to the Porterbrook brochure 319/3 has the same vehicle rebuilt with one standard and one "partially compliant" wheelchair toilet, and the others all retain the original arrangement. So perhaps the 319/3 arrangement will be used if this can be modified for full compliance.

The TSO is also the vehicle that would be removed if they were reduced to 3-car, so any shortened units would need a toilet installing in another vehicle (probably one of the driving trailers) or would end up without.

Well most of the recent 321/320/318/166 work that's had a complaint toilet fitted has been included in one of the driving coaches, so it quite possible the same would be fitted to a 319.

 

[Starmill]

Won't they use the same arrangement as the 320s have received? The removal of one of the two toilets opposite each other and fitment of the new compliant toilet in another coach. This is IMO a better arrangement because a) if two toilets are deemed necessary, having them right next to each other isn't that sensible and b) it means a sensible use of space, one compliant toilet and the other one space saving.

To be honest, I think that with these 319s as the 320s they could have gotten away with simply removing the two small toilets and providing just one modern compliant toilet. The 333s have this, and I think it's sufficient and provides the right trade-off between space for more seats and toilet capacity on most routes. A second space saving toilet is a nice luxury.

 

[fowler9]

Won't they use the same arrangement as the 320s have received? The removal of one of the two toilets opposite each other and fitment of the new compliant toilet in another coach. This is IMO a better arrangement because a) if two toilets are deemed necessary, having them right next to each other isn't that sensible and b) it means a sensible use of space, one compliant toilet and the other one space saving.

To be honest, I think that with these 319s as the 320s they could have gotten away with simply removing the two small toilets and providing just one modern compliant toilet. The 333s have this, and I think it's sufficient and provides the right trade-off between space for more seats and toilet capacity on most routes. A second space saving toilet is a nice luxury.

If the toilet works. Check out the 350's and 185's. Often neither of the 2 on a three/four car unit are working.

 

[jonesy3001]

I got on a 6 car 185 from Lancaster(12:27) to the airport on the 12th october and it had to be terminated at oxford rd as the toilets in the first 3 cars weren't working and all had to be transferred onto an 8 car 350 that was waiting for us, it nearly made miss our connection to york but did feel sorry for the folk as it was probably a long journey from scotland without toilets,surprised TPE didnt supply nappies or bottles,lol.

 

[Class377/5]

Won't they use the same arrangement as the 320s have received? The removal of one of the two toilets opposite each other and fitment of the new compliant toilet in another coach. This is IMO a better arrangement because a) if two toilets are deemed necessary, having them right next to each other isn't that sensible and b) it means a sensible use of space, one compliant toilet and the other one space saving.

To be honest, I think that with these 319s as the 320s they could have gotten away with simply removing the two small toilets and providing just one modern compliant toilet. The 333s have this, and I think it's sufficient and provides the right trade-off between space for more seats and toilet capacity on most routes. A second space saving toilet is a nice luxury.

That's what's happening with the 319s. Toilets ripped put and single accessible loo put in. Doubt there is any space gained tho.

 

[northwichcat]

To be honest, I think that with these 319s as the 320s they could have gotten away with simply removing the two small toilets and providing just one modern compliant toilet. The 333s have this, and I think it's sufficient and provides the right trade-off between space for more seats and toilet capacity on most routes. A second space saving toilet is a nice luxury.

I think the longest class 333 service is just 45 minutes. Given Northern are expected to take over Manchester Airport-Blackpool (with no new stock on order) and they also operate Liverpool South Parkway-Blackpool the 319s will likely be used on services of 90-110 minutes. We also could possibly see Blackpool North to Stalybridge services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clearly a 319 will add extra capacity if the DMUs are kept as more 2 car DMU workings may be able to become four car DMU workings

They will. However, Network Rail flagged concerns about the usage of 319s on Bolton services as they believe 6 car trains are required and the 319s are obviously 4 car and won't be able to run in 8 car formation without either multi-million pound infrastructure changes (which aren't included in Network Rail's CP5 budget) or SDO being fitted to the 319s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I got on a 6 car 185 from Lancaster(12:27) to the airport on the 12th october and it had to be terminated at oxford rd as the toilets in the first 3 cars weren't working and all had to be transferred onto an 8 car 350 that was waiting for us, it nearly made miss our connection to york but did feel sorry for the folk as it was probably a long journey from scotland without toilets,surprised TPE didnt supply nappies or bottles,lol.

The 8 car 350 probably should have been working the service you were on, given TPE diagram 9 x 350s to be in daily usage they certainly wouldn't have had 2 spares. Consequently, they probably needed to get the 3 car 185 with working toilets on to North TPE or Blackpool-Manchester Airport services before the evening peak.

 

[hassaanhc]

That's what's happening with the 319s. Toilets ripped put and single accessible loo put in. Doubt there is any space gained tho.

I used 319215 and that is what was done in that. However it seemed to take up more space

 

[Class377/5]

I used 319215 and that is what was done in that. However it seemed to take up more space

That was done prior to transfer to Thameslink. Believe they are to be replaced by a newer version that takes less space up.

 

[Bantamzen]

Do we know yet if any 319s will receive a new paint job or vinyls like the recently done Northern 322s? I've got 322481 alongside and I do like the blue they've used on it. It's very simple yet also very distinctive. I like it a lot to be honest, and I think it might suit the 319s.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Won't they use the same arrangement as the 320s have received? The removal of one of the two toilets opposite each other and fitment of the new compliant toilet in another coach....

To be honest, I think that with these 319s as the 320s they could have gotten away with simply removing the two small toilets and providing just one modern compliant toilet.....

The 320s were built without toilets, I believe the accessible one replaced a seating area.

I think one toilet would be enough and placing centrally makes sense, not just for best access, but also because, unlike other similar classes, the 319 already has a Toilet Effluence Tank there.

 

[childwallblues]

Interesting thought. The 319s were built with two small toilets opposite each other in the TSO. According to the Porterbrook brochure 319/3 has the same vehicle rebuilt with one standard and one "partially compliant" wheelchair toilet, and the others all retain the original arrangement. So perhaps the 319/3 arrangement will be used if this can be modified for full compliance.

The TSO is also the vehicle that would be removed if they were reduced to 3-car, so any shortened units would need a toilet installing in another vehicle (probably one of the driving trailers) or would end up without.

I would have thought that reducing the 319s to three car would be madness considering many trains on the routes that they planned to operate are four car in the peaks now.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I would have thought that reducing the 319s to three car would be madness considering many trains on the routes that they planned to operate are four car in the peaks now.

What's generally the maximum train length (number of coaches) that the platforms can accommodate on the routes that the 319s are due to be used on?

 

[47802]

What's generally the maximum train length (number of coaches) that the platforms can accommodate on the routes that the 319s are due to be used on?

As has been commented on here before 4 car units are generally ok for the initial electrification routes, the problem comes when Blackpool Manchester is complete, if you want to run them in pairs then some of the smaller station can not accommodate 8 car trains but they could accommodate 6 car trains including I believe Salford Crescent which would be difficult to alter.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What's generally the maximum train length (number of coaches) that the platforms can accommodate on the routes that the 319s are due to be used on?

The practical limit is 8x20m coaches because that's all that will fit into Manchester Oxford Road.
Other places on NW new electric routes with 8 or more include:
Manchester Pic/Vic/Airport, Eccles, Patricroft, Edge Hill, Liverpool Lime St,
St Helens Central, Wigan NW, Clifton, Bolton, Lostock, Preston, Blackpool North, Stalybridge.

Some others can accept 8 cars in one direction but not the other (eg Earlestown).
Key problem places are Salford Cen/Cres, Newton le Willows, St Helens Jn, Horwich and the Blackpool line stations.
Most of the rest are 4/5-car with only 3-car at Salwick.
There is a platform extension plan for some stations but only to 6x23m.

 

[northwichcat]

Key problem places are Salford Cen/Cres, Newton le Willows, St Helens Jn, Horwich and the Blackpool line stations.
Most of the rest are 4/5-car with only 3-car at Salwick.
There is a platform extension plan for some stations but only to 6x23m.

Newton-le-Willows is to get platform lengthening to 6 x 24m. I'm not sure if that is to cover Chester-Manchester services or to cover diverted Liverpool-Sheffield and beyond services operated by 185s.

 

[AM9]

The practical limit is 8x20m coaches because that's all that will fit into Manchester Oxford Road.
Other places on NW new electric routes with 8 or more include:
Manchester Pic/Vic/Airport, Eccles, Patricroft, Edge Hill, Liverpool Lime St,
St Helens Central, Wigan NW, Clifton, Bolton, Lostock, Preston, Blackpool North, Stalybridge.

Some others can accept 8 cars in one direction way but not the other (eg Earlestown).
Key problem places are Salford Cen/Cres, Newton le Willows, St Helens Jn, Horwich and the Blackpool line stations.
Most of the rest are 4/5-car with only 3-car at Salwick.
There is a platform extension plan for some stations but only to 6x23m.

Then it would seem that 4-car stock is a reasonable compromise. Maybe SDO could be fitted without breaking the bank as an alternative to extending the few stops limited to 6 cars. It shoud certainly be cheaper than cannibalising the 319s to 3-car.

 

[northwichcat]

Then it would seem that 4-car stock is a reasonable compromise. Maybe SDO could be fitted without breaking the bank as an alternative to extending the few stops limited to 6 cars. It shoud certainly be cheaper than cannibalising the 319s to 3-car.

I find it interesting so many people say Northern can't have new stock because they can't afford the leasing costs but then people say Northern should run 8 car EMUs even if 6 car would be sufficient just because the 319s are 4 car and will be surplus to requirements at Thameslink

 

[Class377/5]

I find it interesting so many people say Northern can't have new stock because they can't afford the leasing costs but then people say Northern should run 8 car EMUs even if 6 car would be sufficient just because the 319s are 4 car and will be surplus to requirements at Thameslink

I think the difference is running 8 car services with cascaded units allows for passenger growth while properly costing the same as new 4 car stock. The 8 car allows for extra revenue to fund the higher costs while the just getting new stock doesn't generate any extra money.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I find it interesting so many people say Northern can't have new stock because they can't afford the leasing costs but then people say Northern should run 8 car EMUs even if 6 car would be sufficient just because the 319s are 4 car and will be surplus to requirements at Thameslink

With the references in postings for the Class 319 units to run in tandem as an 8-car train, can someone remind me exactly how many of these units are scheduled to be transferred to Northern Rail and of the currently-known period that has been scheduled for this to so occur. Also what is the currently-known updating that these said units will be receiving prior to such a transfer.

 

[northwichcat]

With the references in postings for the Class 319 units to run in tandem as an 8-car train, can someone remind me exactly how many of these units are scheduled to be transferred to Northern Rail and of the currently-known period that has been scheduled for this to so occur. Also what is the currently-known updating that these said units will be receiving prior to such a transfer.

As part of the Northern Rail Direct Award they will receive 56 additional EMU carriages - 14 x 319s. Units for Blackpool services and Bolton services will be covered by the new franchise, with Blackpool-Airport expected to transfer from TPE to Northern.

 

[Class377/5]

With the references in postings for the Class 319 units to run in tandem as an 8-car train, can someone remind me exactly how many of these units are scheduled to be transferred to Northern Rail and of the currently-known period that has been scheduled for this to so occur. Also what is the currently-known updating that these said units will be receiving prior to such a transfer.

So far five units have transferred along with 380 loan unit. The 14th unit is due in July (IIRC the plan was final for move then).

The refresh work is supposed to include new seat covers etc. There's more detail in this thread.