Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[fowler9]

Do what the rest of us are doing in protest. Boycott use of any Northern services, even off peak. I have not used their £10 Day Ranger tickets this Autumn with local newspaper tokens. The offer has been extended by a week. Is this a result of people not using Northern?

A noble gesture, do we all walk to work instead?

 

[Class377/5]

Do what the rest of us are doing in protest. Boycott use of any Northern services, even off peak. I have not used their £10 Day Ranger tickets this Autumn with local newspaper tokens. The offer has been extended by a week. Is this a result of people not using Northern?

What will that achieve? It was the DfT and local authorities who created the situation for the restrictions. Less people travelling will simple lower travelling figures if many boycott and the suggestion will be that numbers have stopped growing will be used as an excuse to invest less in the franchise and cause harm long term.

 

[childwallblues]

Do what the rest of us are doing in protest. Boycott use of any Northern services, even off peak. I have not used their £10 Day Ranger tickets this Autumn with local newspaper tokens. The offer has been extended by a week. Is this a result of people not using Northern?

Most people cannot afford to boycott trains like you. They have to get to and from work.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... The offer has been extended by a week. Is this a result of people not using Northern?

To quote from an email I received...

....Due to the success of this offer – it has been extended until Friday 24 October 2014....

 

[fowler9]

To quote from an email I received...

That makes sense to me. Northern get £10 they wouldn't have got for people using trains that were running anyway and in some cases people will by a paper to get the tokens. Everyones a winner.

 

[Techniquest]

You should feel lucky, some people have 240 minutes between 'off-peak trains' each evening.

4 hours?! Ouch!

The earlier suggestion to use the 88 minutes to get food is not a bad idea, I'm sure I could kill quite a bit of time in Leeds doing that. The other suggestion about remaining on a train during that time, so boarding at 1600 or earlier, is all fine and good but let's say I get on at Hebden Bridge at that time to Leeds, will it be all fine and good for me to exit the station at Leeds during the peak time? All I can envisage is having a debate with the barrier staff!

Same situation in the Manchester area. Oh, and are these changes in the Liverpool area too? I must admit I missed that if it is the case. If so I'll jump on Merseyrail services instead, after all Southport to Hunts Cross (or vice versa) is quite a trek and would kill a lot of time!

Boycotting the railway, nah I'm not doing that.

As for the wires not going up in time for the new timetable, that is a shame, let's hope it gets done asap. More time for me to sort out a couple of days off to get up there and do the 319s, so that much is good news for me!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....but let's say I get on at Hebden Bridge at that time to Leeds, will it be all fine and good for me to exit the station at Leeds during the peak time? All I can envisage is having a debate with the barrier staff!...

Maybe, but if you carry a timetable and have a valid ticket I'm not sure there is much they could do. Remember that the arrival times are not important in terms of these restrictions.

.... Oh, and are these changes in the Liverpool area too? I must admit I missed that if it is the case....

Merseyside has had some off-peak evening restrictions for a few years now and are not affected by the new restrictions (excepting for Earlestown/Newton-le-Willows to Manchester/Salford). If it was okay in August it should be okay now.

 

[Techniquest]

Cheers, I would have thought so too regarding West Yorkshire. I might get tweeting to Northern and find out what they say when I go up there next, although I still don't know when that'll be!

 

[deltic08]

What will that achieve? It was the DfT and local authorities who created the situation for the restrictions. Less people travelling will simple lower travelling figures if many boycott and the suggestion will be that numbers have stopped growing will be used as an excuse to invest less in the franchise and cause harm long term.

You obviously agree with the North being shafted by the DfT yet again, but I and many I know have decided enough is enough. If everybody does what we are doing then the drop in footfall would become dramatic and public.

Unlike the more fortunate in this country, my nearest railhead is now a 30 minute car journey away due to Beeching and his flawed economics. If I have to get in the car to go anywhere it is just as convenient in time and cost to continue by car even with inner city congestion and car parking fees. The evening peak surcharges just make rail travel less attractive for me and the general public. Bus operators who compete well with Northern services already in metro areas will be laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[ScotGG]

An individual effort wont do much. Better to try to organise a joint effort with others and crucially get press coverage. Something like a tokenistic 'fare strike' should get TV & newspaper coverage which will have more effect. Contact MPs, councils etc for support.

Also try to tie that into a campaign for devolution and tell people how Scotland has benefited from having power and not being in hock to Westminster, as long term having local politicians in charge of local policies is the best way of change. Devolution isn't on most peoples agenda, but highlighting a clear example of how something can be improved will gain support.

 

[Class377/5]

You obviously agree with the North being shafted by the DfT yet again, but I and many I know have decided enough is enough. If everybody does what we are doing then the drop in footfall would become dramatic and public.

Unlike the more fortunate in this country, my nearest railhead is now a 30 minute car journey away due to Beeching and his flawed economics. If I have to get in the car to go anywhere it is just as convenient in time and cost to continue by car even with inner city congestion and car parking fees. The evening peak surcharges just make rail travel less attractive for me and the general public. Bus operators who compete well with Northern services already in metro areas will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Your making assumptions because you dislike my point that your actions weaken your own desires, perhaps read my post that neutral in terms of whether or not the changes are acceptable. I never mentioned my opinion simply that the actions you encourage gives strength to the opinion some have that Northern doesn't need the investment.

I note that you leave the local authorities out of your post who pushed for these restrictions over car parking changes. Yes the DfT were behind the need for extra cash but they were not alone in deciding.

I could make comment on what I feel its its been done to death as it simply comes back to north vs south debate, ignoring any point that doesn't suit the view that the north is singled out for hardship.

Not to mention hijacking another thread to talk about your perceived miss justice.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unlike the more fortunate in this country, my nearest railhead is now a 30 minute car journey away due to Beeching and his flawed economics.

It's a little unfair to blame Beeching for your nearest railhead 'now a 30 minute car journey away'. It's been like that for nearly half a century.

Having a nearby rail link has been important to me since I started work, so I've moved to within 20 mins walk of a station - several times when my job has moved.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's a little unfair to blame Beeching for your nearest railhead 'now a 30 minute car journey away'. It's been like that for nearly half a century.

Having a nearby rail link has been important to me since I started work, so I've moved to within 20 mins walk of a station - several times when my job has moved.

Trying to look for a historical similarity of blaming matters from eons ago, Dukinfield Dog Lane railway station was opened in 1845 with much local celebrations and no doubt, a cold collation, but some scurrilous individual decided that Dukinfield as a settlement was not deserving of such a benefit and closure was effected with much wailing and gnashing of teeth in 1847. However they are a tough breed in Dukinfield and not ones to give up easily, so Dukinfield Central was opened by the Great Central Railway in 1864 and this lasted until 1959. Just to show that Dukinfield was worthy of extra top-notch railway service facilities, the LNWR opened the Stalybridge Junction Railway in 1888 and opened a station called Dukinfield and Ashton which gave the area quite good coverage, which stayed open until 1950.

 

[deltic08]

It's a little unfair to blame Beeching for your nearest railhead 'now a 30 minute car journey away'. It's been like that for nearly half a century.

Having a nearby rail link has been important to me since I started work, so I've moved to within 20 mins walk of a station - several times when my job has moved.

Unlike you, I have had the same two businesses in Ripon and Leeds for nearly forty years. Why should I move from Ripon when my business is here?

I was being polite when I criticised Beechings flawed accounting. He deliberately cooked the figures to make the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton route look as if it was a loss maker. After months of research, I discovered that this line was making a handsome profit because he had ignored MOD income from troop trains, army freight trains and army rail passes issued from the large Garrison in Ripon.

Three viaducts and a couple of bridges on the line were stated as in questionable condition requiring major work. One viaduct was taken down immediately as if was iron and valuable. All masonry structures still standing are in good condition fifty years later despite no maintenance.
That makes him a liar and cheat in my eyes. If he could mislead once he could have done it to many lines.

 

[Starmill]

An individual effort wont do much. Better to try to organise a joint effort with others and crucially get press coverage. Something like a tokenistic 'fare strike' should get TV & newspaper coverage which will have more effect. Contact MPs, councils etc for support.

Also try to tie that into a campaign for devolution and tell people how Scotland has benefited from having power and not being in hock to Westminster, as long term having local politicians in charge of local policies is the best way of change. Devolution isn't on most peoples agenda, but highlighting a clear example of how something can be improved will gain support.

Just use your off-peak ticket on a train that departs at a barred time as a connecting service from a journey that began at a valid time. It will be so busy the chances of being challenged are very slim anyway, but do it enough times and once you are happily go to court over the matter. See who will support you if you do. Barry Doe for a start, and I'll chuck £20 in too - and I'm sure there'd be some others on here!

 

[deltic08]

Your making assumptions because you dislike my point that your actions weaken your own desires, perhaps read my post that neutral in terms of whether or not the changes are acceptable. I never mentioned my opinion simply that the actions you encourage gives strength to the opinion some have that Northern doesn't need the investment.

I note that you leave the local authorities out of your post who pushed for these restrictions over car parking changes. Yes the DfT were behind the need for extra cash but they were not alone in deciding.

I could make comment on what I feel its its been done to death as it simply comes back to north vs south debate, ignoring any point that doesn't suit the view that the north is singled out for hardship.

Not to mention hijacking another thread to talk about your perceived miss justice.

Sorry, but my boycott started before your posting and nothing to do with your points or my desires. You are not that important. Why reply if you thought it was a hijack. Just ignore. Yes we need investment as there has been under investment for years but we appear to be paying for investment in Yorkshire a long way ahead of delivery. Odd that TPEx is getting investment yet peak time fare increases do not apply to TPEx services.

Leeds Metro know exactly how I feel about parking charges and yes it is North v South again.

 

[Class377/5]

Sorry, but my boycott started before your posting and nothing to do with your points or my desires. You are not that important. Why reply if you thought it was a hijack. Just ignore. Yes we need investment as there has been under investment for years but we appear to be paying for investment in Yorkshire a long way ahead of delivery. Odd that TPEx is getting investment yet peak time fare increases do not apply to TPEx services.

Leeds Metro know exactly how I feel about parking charges and yes it is North v South again.

Your seem to ignore my point that lowering usage means less reason to invest but rather than actually come back with a valid point you become childish and try to insult me personally. Rather than simply turn every thread into what you want, why not discuss with us and perhaps taken your own advice? Especially as your happy to ignore under investment elsewhere when it suits your viewpoint but try to complain about it when it affects you. Its not just the north that suffered under investment.

 

[deltic08]

Your seem to ignore my point that lowering usage means less reason to invest but rather than actually come back with a valid point you become childish and try to insult me personally. Rather than simply turn every thread into what you want, why not discuss with us and perhaps taken your own advice? Especially as your happy to ignore under investment elsewhere when it suits your viewpoint but try to complain about it when it affects you. Its not just the north that suffered under investment.

If you read my post carefully instead of trying to score points, you will see that I said we need more investment. I then went on to say that we have been paying for more investment in Yorkshire for a long time without getting any. Something that does not apply to London and Southeast where investment is continuous and disproportionate to the rest of England and possibly UK. I have already stated my reason and reason of others boycotting inflated fare increases introduced in September so had no need to mention again. A sudden fall in usage will be noted and reported to let decision makers know of our displeasure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just use your off-peak ticket on a train that departs at a barred time as a connecting service from a journey that began at a valid time. It will be so busy the chances of being challenged are very slim anyway, but do it enough times and once you are happily go to court over the matter. See who will support you if you do. Barry Doe for a start, and I'll chuck £20 in too - and I'm sure there'd be some others on here!

Many thanks for the offer but is it really worth the aggrro when I can so easily use the car instead? I have noticed the three station car parks in Harrogate are less busy now than before the fare rise. That says a lot.

 

[Brian1947]

Can anyone tell me what the last 20 or so posts have to do with the actual thread?

It really is b****y annoying to access this thread to ascertain if something NEW is happening to the 319 cascade and all I read is something that should be in another part of the forum!

 

[DJH1971]

Can anyone tell me what the last 20 or so posts have to do with the actual thread?

It really is b****y annoying to access this thread to ascertain if something NEW is happening to the 319 cascade and all I read is something that should be in another part of the forum!

I agree, it has gone off tangent completely.

 

[Geeves]

Its more annoying that people complain about thread going off on a tangent who have posted nothing of value to said thread. Why don't you add something constructive Brian and bring it back on topic yourself instead of complaining?

The driver training is moving forward now. Driver Team Managers cleared on the stock and will be able to ride out with drivers on the proper route once the wires are up.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's so easily done but, as I agree, it can be frustrating at times. Some minor detail in the thread can just be, quite correctly, associated with something else also and then, the threads can tend to start discussing this side issue and escalate into what could be described as a completely different thread.

Another such example is the thread re the "Port Briwet Bridge" where, now, even after re-opening still crops up. I posted myself earlier when I said that when I see this thread title appear, I begin to wonder of it has closed again !!!
Instead of that the thread seems to be discussing the Road Bridge on a Rail Forum.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Another such example is the thread re the "Port Briwet Bridge" where, now, even after re-opening still crops up. I posted myself earlier when I said that when I see this thread title appear, I begin to wonder of it has closed again !!!
Instead of that the thread seems to be discussing the Road Bridge on a Rail Forum.

One has to think of the newly constructed Pont Briwet as a single entity with both rail and road sections incorporated upon it, so surely discussions can be held to be allowed as such on bridge matters. Do not forget that the rail section was opened first, whereas the road section is much delayed in opening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can anyone tell me what the last 20 or so posts have to do with the actual thread?

It really is b****y annoying to access this thread to ascertain if something NEW is happening to the 319 cascade and all I read is something that should be in another part of the forum!

We are of one and the same mind on this matter, even though I have just made a posting in response to a posting on this thread that I felt worthy of making a posting of matter clarification thereon.

 

[fowler9]

Well despite my earlier reservations and comments about the north getting cast offs from down south I have given my head a wobble and am quite looking forward to seeing them in service. I realise that in many cases I quite like older rolling stock and am enjoying seeing the 319's knocking around Allerton on my daily trip home from work through South Parkway.

 

[martynbristow]

So back on topic
Whats the seating capacity of a 319 versus the 156 (150)
I assume we will see a big improvement on a lot of things including the load times at stations becuase of the better door arrangement.

But why are they running through to the airport. Would it not have made sense to use them to Victoria, I am aware that wouldn't be ready.

 

[DJH1971]

So back on topic
Whats the seating capacity of a 319 versus the 156 (150)
I assume we will see a big improvement on a lot of things including the load times at stations becuase of the better door arrangement.

But why are they running through to the airport. Would it not have made sense to use them to Victoria, I am aware that wouldn't be ready.

As discussed in the Manchester-Liverpool Electrification thread, there are problems with signal sightings apparently.

My money is on the Liverpool to Manchester Airport services going electric first.

 

[northwichcat]

So back on topic
Whats the seating capacity of a 319 versus the 156 (150)
I assume we will see a big improvement on a lot of things including the load times at stations becuase of the better door arrangement.

But why are they running through to the airport. Would it not have made sense to use them to Victoria, I am aware that wouldn't be ready.

Northern have a variety of different layouts on their 150s. The refurbished 150/1s don't have the same layout as the refurbished 150/2s, while the non-refurbished 150/1s don't have the same layout as the non-refurbished 150/2s. I think we're talking about 135 to 149 seats per 2 car Sprinter.

According to the Porterbrook brochure: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf The 319/3s have 305 seats all standard class.

319s will generally provide many additional seats on Victoria/Airport to Liverpool services. However, there are booked double Sprinter formations on Liverpool-Wigan and Manchester-Preston so by the time the 319s have the required accessibility improvements they won't probably provide any extra seats compared to the pairs of Sprinters.

 

[Class377/5]

Northern have a variety of different layouts on their 150s. The refurbished 150/1s don't have the same layout as the refurbished 150/2s, while the non-refurbished 150/1s don't have the same layout as the non-refurbished 150/2s. I think we're talking about 135 to 149 seats per 2 car Sprinter.

According to the Porterbrook brochure: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf The 319/3s have 305 seats all standard class.

319s will generally provide many additional seats on Victoria/Airport to Liverpool services. However, there are booked double Sprinter formations on Liverpool-Wigan and Manchester-Preston so by the time the 319s have the required accessibility improvements they won't probably provide any extra seats compared to the pairs of Sprinters.

Is that comparing accessible 150s vs accessible 319/3s for no extra seats?

 

[edwin_m]

A 319 has four 20m long cars and a 150 has two based on the same bodyshell. The space available for seating on a 319 is therefore rather more than on two 150s, because the 319 only has two cabs compared with four, and (after accessibility enhancements) the 319 will probably only have one toilet and the 150s will have one per unit.

 

[northwichcat]

the 319 will probably only have one toilet

I don't think 1 toilet on a 4 car unit in the North would work. With a lack of station toilets and some rural stations the on board toilets get very well used on some services. It'll probably be one accessible toilet and one non-accessible one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that comparing accessible 150s vs accessible 319/3s for no extra seats?

No but the idea is the 319s are supposed to provide much needed extra capacity to the North. With LM they got accessible 23.8m class 172 carriages to replace non-accessible 20m class 150 carriages.