Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Wolfie]

What do you mean Northern can't afford 387s? Explain.

New rolling stock costs a serious amount of lease charges. Northern is the most heavily subsidised franchise as things are. There is zero appitite to give it even more money - indeed electrification is intended to help to reduce subsidies!

 

[northwichcat]

New rolling stock costs a serious amount of lease charges. Northern is the most heavily subsidised franchise as things are. There is zero appitite to give it even more money - indeed electrification is intended to help to reduce subsidies!

1. Not correct. Both ATW and Scotrail are more heavily subsided.
2. There's no like-for-like comparison with Northern since Wessex disappeared with franchise re-organisation. Northern are the one franchise who don't have any of the more lucrative routes in the area they operate.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a really huge franchise too covering a lot of rural areas. Northern is responsible for something like 20% of all passenger services and 25% of the network. I saw someone say once that by 7:30am Northern has already operated more services than operate on the East Coast franchise all day.

 

[user15681]

A 319 appears to have moved up to Wolverton during the early hours:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P90435/2014/09/01/advanced

It left Bedford at 02:47 & arrived at Wolverton at around 06:00. Could this have been 319.363?

Yes it was, along with 319005. 363 will have it's refresh done, then head north with 362. 005 is there for C6 works and after it'll travel back to Bedford.

will the next 319 to Liverpool be coming under its own power?

Nope, 362 and 363 will go north together behind 57306.

 

[Wolfie]

1. Not correct. Both ATW and Scotrail are more heavily subsided.
2. There's no like-for-like comparison with Northern since Wessex disappeared with franchise re-organisation. Northern are the one franchise who don't have any of the more lucrative routes in the area they operate.

1. Northern are the most heavily subsidised by the UK (in this context effectively English) government - Scotland and Wales may subsidise their TOCs
but there is zero appitite in England to increase subsidies...
2. So what - the reality is that the economic basket case is NOT going to get given shiny new rolling stock so the taxpayer/South Eastern rail travellers can pay even more towards it - it is not going to happen so suck it up or expect the sort of fare rises which have happened down South to pay for improvements! Frankly the woe is me stuff is getting VERY tedious - Labour will no more provide Northen with new rolling stock, for the same economic reasons, than the ConDems have.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What do you mean Northern can't afford 387s? Explain.

This paragraph was in the Northern new franchise consultation: https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...hern-and-transpennine-express-rail-franchises

p35:
Rolling stock
We firmly believe the rolling stock on Northern services needs to be improved so that passengers recognise a step change. But the more expensive the trains (and brand-new trains are likely to be the most expensive option of all), the harder it will be to justify current service levels where demand is low, and to afford to improve services where demand is increasing.

You can have new trains but fewer of them than cascaded ones, leading to service reductions.
The evening peak fare increases are also a way of trying to close the rolling stock funding gap.
Even cascaded 319s are likely to cost more than the DMUs they replace (4-car EMU versus 2-car DMU), and it is proposed to keep the DMUs so that's two budget hits.

 

[WatcherZero]

1. Northern are the most heavily subsidised by the UK (in this context effectively English) government - Scotland and Wales may subsidise their TOCs
but there is zero appitite in England to increase subsidies...
2. So what - the reality is that the economic basket case is NOT going to get given shiny new rolling stock so the taxpayer/South Eastern rail travellers can pay even more towards it - it is not going to happen so suck it up or expect the sort of fare rises which have happened down South to pay for improvements! Frankly the woe is me stuff is getting VERY tedious - Labour will no more provide Northen with new rolling stock, for the same economic reasons, than the ConDems have.

Except figures show fares have risen exactly the same amount in the north and the south, in fact revenue per passenger has increased in the North while it has declined in the South.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Given the current state of the 319s and how well they have been looking after them. The solution would seem to give the new 387s to Northern. Don't let them anywhere near Thameslink to be wrecked. They are only after all a stopgap solution there until the 700s are delivered shortly.

When the 700s arrive scrap the 319s or do them up and keep the junk down South. Where they can be given more tlc.

In general, the 319's are generally well looked after if only they were kept away from the grafitti/vandals of some South London areas. The FCC 377's are generally well looked after as they only work the Bedford - Brightons and therefore avoid stopping at much of south London surburbia.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Labour will no more provide Northern with new rolling stock, for the same economic reasons, than the ConDems have.

Have the Labour Party made any statements of late regarding rail travel in the North of England ?

 

[Starmill]

They are very similar to the splendid 320s you have on Clydeside.

Why how correct you are! Now, are they going to be refurbished up to that standard? Hmm...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. Northern are the most heavily subsidised by the UK (in this context effectively English) government - Scotland and Wales may subsidise their TOCs
but there is zero appitite in England to increase subsidies...
2. So what - the reality is that the economic basket case is NOT going to get given shiny new rolling stock so the taxpayer/South Eastern rail travellers can pay even more towards it - it is not going to happen so suck it up or expect the sort of fare rises which have happened down South to pay for improvements! Frankly the woe is me stuff is getting VERY tedious - Labour will no more provide Northen with new rolling stock, for the same economic reasons, than the ConDems have.

I've debunked this nonsense time and again in these threads - this belongs in the one set up by tcbc, not this one that should be for discussing the arrival and entry into service of the 319s.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

That's interesting. Do they have the Stone-Faiveley or the Brecknell Willis types

All of 319.361 - 319.386 were built with Brecknell Willis pantographs and most of the earlier 319's have been retrofitted

 

[Helvellyn]

The latest Modern Railways points out that the average Northern fare is £2.40 per journey. That explains a lot why there won't be lots of new rolling stock.

 

[fowler9]

The latest Modern Railways points out that the average Northern fare is £2.40 per journey. That explains a lot why there won't be lots of new rolling stock.

Just trying to think of another franchise which has absolutely no routes which could be considered close to long distance inter city or cross country routes. I can't think of one. Do you think this could explain why the average Northern fare is so low?

 

[507 001]

Send more 319s northwards

nothing better than sitting in the motor coach doing 100mph.!
Noisier that 321s etc cos they are heavier.

I'm looking forward to it

 

[WatcherZero]

The latest Modern Railways points out that the average Northern fare is £2.40 per journey. That explains a lot why there won't be lots of new rolling stock.

Change in revenue per passenger journey last decade, regional +7.4%, LSE -5.4%.

Northern rail average distance travelled 25km, Southern 25.5km
Southern Rail has the same average passenger distance, it has just under twice the passengers carried and twice the passenger distance travelled, it has three times the passenger revenue so it makes a good comparator. Its trains travel 85% the distance Northern Trains travel on 25% of the route miles. Northern Rail operates three times as many stations and has 20% more staff.

Average passenger revenue per journey (nationally) £5.17, Southern rail £3.17, Northern £2.42

But heres the key part:
Passenger fare revenue per passenger km travelled, Southern 6.75p, Northern Rail 9.8p, national average 8.2p

 

[GatwickDepress]

There are plenty of threads for discussing revenue, subsidies, and all that. Can we keep this solely on topic please.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are the most heavily subsidised by the UK (in this context effectively English) government - Scotland and Wales may subsidise their TOCs

Merseyrail, London Overground, Scotrail and ATW are always excluded from the DfT list of subsidies because DfT are not the franchiser for those franchises not because they don't receive any central government funds.

2. So what - the reality is that the economic basket case is NOT going to get given shiny new rolling stock so the taxpayer/South Eastern rail travellers can pay even more towards it

On the same basis Southeastern should be barred from obtaining new stock due to the high subsidy required for HS1. Never mind if the other services are profitable because Northern services are always looked at collectively as unprofitable so the same should apply for Southeastern.

Interesting that you claim the South East passengers are paying when the only profitable franchise operating only in London & South East is First Capital Connect and that doesn't even pay enough back to DfT to subside Southeastern.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes it was, along with 319005. 363 will have it's refresh done, then head north with 362. 005 is there for C6 works and after it'll travel back to Bedford.

Cheers for that. Is there any indication when 362 & 363 will make the move North, or is it too early yet?

 

[Llama]

From what I understand it's just the latest standard of wiring in the North West and the existing 319 pantograph can't be used on that.

Think this is an old wives tale.
They will be keeping the Brecknell-Willis pans.

 

[AM9]

Think this is an old wives tale.
They will be keeping the Brecknell-Willis pans.

Maybe they will adjust any optimisation for 100mph running to somethinmg more pedestrian. Also, will they need to prepare it for the Olive Mount cutting? Or is that the wrong line?

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe they will adjust any optimisation for 100mph running to somethinmg more pedestrian.

Porterbrook may re-engineer them to improve acceleration but that will reduce their top speed so they may not be suitable for replacing 323s on certain services e.g. Manchester-Stoke either before or after re-engineering.

The units are capable of 100 mph operation and are
fitted with enhanced emergency braking. The high
speed gearing means tractive effort at slow speed is
not optimised, but if the units are required for “Metro”
type services the traction motors can be re-geared.
This takes away the 100 mph capability but give better
acceleration so on diagrams with short station spacing
the overall journey time will be improved. A further
improvement can be made by fitting new traction
equipment as described on the next page.

For some time Porterbrook has been developing
proposals for fitting new ac traction to the fleet. Only a
few years ago the cost of this was prohibitive, however
recently these costs have reduced while the benefits
have improved due to rising energy prices.
This option would remove the existing traction
equipment, including the motors, and replace it with a
modern 3-phase traction package from a well known
supplier. This has the following benefits: -

• Enables regenerative braking;
• Improves reliability (less moving parts);
• Improves availability (less repairs and examinations,
remote diagnostics);
• Reduces maintenance costs -
• ac motors require less maintenance;
• Brake pad use cut by 50%;
• Less moving parts;
• Wheel life improves with better slip control;

Regenerative braking is the dominant factor in the
business case for new traction as simulations show
it will return over 20% of traction electricity on inner
suburban working or around 10% on Inter – City.
New traction has the potential to improve performance;
however the proposal avoids bogie modifications
by retaining the existing four-motor configuration.
Increased installed power can be provided by using load
weighing technology in the drive system. The existing
traction system operates on an average adhesion level
based on a tare loading, however the new traction can
detect increased load and use this to transmit more
power since the adhesive weight is increased. The
configuration of the units with all the power equipment
on one vehicle is the best arrangement for power
transmission.

The preferred option uses axle-selective technology
which provides much better slip control, better reliability
and allows regenerative braking to be used in low
adhesion conditions. Wheel – rail adhesion is further
enhanced by a new WSP system which is combined with
smart braking technology to concentrate brake effort on
the motor vehicle and so maximise regenerative brake
benefit. A detailed feasibility study has been carried out
which quantified savings and shows this modification
merits serious consideration if the units are planned to
operate on frequent-stop services beyond 2020.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also, will they need to prepare it for the Olive Mount cutting? Or is that the wrong line?

Funny you should say that.
NR did a comprehensive vegetation clearance of Olive Mount cutting earlier this year, but they forgot a long creeper dropping down from one of the high bridges.
It currently just misses the roof of a train passing on the Down line, but it is perfectly positioned to get tangled up in an EMU's pantograph!
I seem to remember one of the worst incidents on Thameslink was caused by pantograph damage collected in the leafy south London suburbs.

 

[hassaanhc]

Funny you should say that.
NR did a comprehensive vegetation clearance of Olive Mount cutting earlier this year, but they forgot a long creeper dropping down from one of the high bridges.
It currently just misses the roof of a train passing on the Down line, but it is perfectly positioned to get tangled up in an EMU's pantograph!
I seem to remember one of the worst incidents on Thameslink was caused by pantograph damage collected in the leafy south London suburbs.

You are probably thinking about Kentish Town 2011 where there were a large number of failures in communication and following of procedures. The rear pantograph had a tree branch stuck in it which caused the supply to it to trip.

 

[AM9]

Porterbrook may re-engineer them to improve acceleration but that will reduce their top speed so they may not be suitable for replacing 323s on certain services e.g. Manchester-Stoke either before or after re-engineering.

That was a serious comment about the pantograph. The Brecknell Willis type has ailerons fitted to increase uplift at speed without the need for more powerful springing. If the maximum speed was reduced either by modification to the drivetrain or just because of typical linespeeds on the routes that they were deployed, then there might be an opportunity to change the performance of the pantograph to suit their new duties.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I seem to remember one of the worst incidents on Thameslink was caused by pantograph damage collected in the leafy south London suburbs.
LNW-GW Joint is offline Report Post

Regrettably - some of the many issues - and not just on FCC / Thameslink - Northampton Riverside sidings until treated by the lumberjacks was a fine place for overnight acquisition of pan debris , which resulted in tripping and worse some hours later.

 

[deltic08]

1. Northern are the most heavily subsidised by the UK (in this context effectively English) government - Scotland and Wales may subsidise their TOCs
but there is zero appitite in England to increase subsidies...
2. So what - the reality is that the economic basket case is NOT going to get given shiny new rolling stock so the taxpayer/South Eastern rail travellers can pay even more towards it - it is not going to happen so suck it up or expect the sort of fare rises which have happened down South to pay for improvements! Frankly the woe is me stuff is getting VERY tedious - Labour will no more provide Northen with new rolling stock, for the same economic reasons, than the ConDems have.

This is just heresay perpetuated in the selfish and greedy South. Where is your evidence? What you mean to say is that there is no appetite in the South for greater subsidy in the North.

Can I remind you that rail improvements in the South are an unjust £2700 PER HEAD whereas it is only £303 per head in Yorkshire and a miserly £5 in the Northeast. I suggest that the North is subsidising the South. Discuss.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Change in revenue per passenger journey last decade, regional +7.4%, LSE -5.4%.

Northern rail average distance travelled 25km, Southern 25.5km
Southern Rail has the same average passenger distance, it has just under twice the passengers carried and twice the passenger distance travelled, it has three times the passenger revenue so it makes a good comparator. Its trains travel 85% the distance Northern Trains travel on 25% of the route miles. Northern Rail operates three times as many stations and has 20% more staff.

Average passenger revenue per journey (nationally) £5.17, Southern rail £3.17, Northern £2.42

But heres the key part:
Passenger fare revenue per passenger km travelled, Southern 6.75p, Northern Rail 9.8p, national average 8.2p

Your last paragraph is indisputable and hits the whiners in the South right between the eyes. Let them try and get out of this one.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah, I think it may be due to Season ticket discounting and zonal travel but im not 100% sure.

Anyway back on 319's Rail North gave the transport select committee this week figures for how much more rolling stock they need and how much they would like. They said they needed another 220 carriages to meet demand but they would like 460 carriages for the extra services they envisage.

 

[deltic08]

Yeah, I think it may be due to Season ticket discounting and zonal travel but im not 100% sure.

Anyway back on 319's Rail North gave the transport select committee this week figures for how much more rolling stock they need and how much they would like. They said they needed another 220 carriages to meet demand but they would like 460 carriages for the extra services they envisage.

More electrification then and quick about it.

 

[Class377/5]

This is just heresay perpetuated in the selfish and greedy South. Where is your evidence? What you mean to say is that there is no appetite in the South for greater subsidy in the North.

Can I remind you that rail improvements in the South are an unjust £2700 PER HEAD whereas it is only £303 per head in Yorkshire and a miserly £5 in the Northeast. I suggest that the North is subsidising the South. Discuss.

Your last paragraph is indisputable and hits the whiners in the South right between the eyes. Let them try and get out of this one.

Does the figure of transport spend include all of Crossrail? If it does its just playing with figures, because I'm sure IIRC that those figures your repeating failure to account for private and public money and lump it all together. Hardly a fair comparison when some regions get private money involved when others don't.

Its too easy to manipulate figures to try to prove a personal opinion (I'm not referring to this poster but general statement).

 

[HSTEd]

Can I remind you that rail improvements in the South are an unjust £2700 PER HEAD whereas it is only £303 per head in Yorkshire and a miserly £5 in the Northeast. I suggest that the North is subsidising the South. Discuss.

That is horrendously simplistic - rail improvement expenditures are less in the North because the resources that pay for them in the south are instead expended on pumping yet more blood (money) into a patient that is suffering massive haemorrhaging.
The northern network absorbs any possible capital spend as operational subsidy just to stop it dying completely.

Your last paragraph is indisputable and hits the whiners in the South right between the eyes. Let them try and get out of this one.

Uh... all this demonstrates is that rail is strongly subject to economies of scale.
The revenue per passenger kilometre is less in the South but the cost of running the services per passenger kilometre is even lower.
A 12 car train does not cost six times as much to run as a 2 car one.