Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Class377/5]

Note the move next week has been postponed...

Only the part to Allerton. There is still a 319 heading to Wolverton.

 

[Manchester77]

Only the part to Allerton. There is still a 319 heading to Wolverton.

So could to move to Allerton have been cancelled to allow another 319 to be refreshed at Wolverton so when both units move up there'll be 2 refreshed units?

 

[Class377/5]

So could to move to Allerton have been cancelled to allow another 319 to be refreshed at Wolverton so when both units move up there'll be 2 refreshed units?

While I don't know for sure, my info is its two 319s going under their power to Wolverton then 362/363 go north together. The move to Wolverton still needs to happen for other 319 as the C6 still needs doing.

 

[Manchester77]

While I don't know for sure, my info is its two 319s going under their power to Wolverton then 362/363 go north together. The move to Wolverton still needs to happen for other 319 as the C6 still needs doing.

I'd imagine the other 319 will run to Wolverton once 362 and 363 are at Allerton so they can crew train with some units.

 

[childwallblues]

The wires on Allerton Depot are I understand due to go live this weekend. As they have not been used for many years (since the 303/304s left the area) I should imagine a fair bit of testing is required.
Some Northern drivers are route learning Liverpool South Parkway to Crewe prior to full driver training on 319s commencing.

 

[northwichcat]

Surprising they never thought PIS was useful on a route with a varying stopping pattern and two major international airports on...

Probably because they were introduced well before PIS existed and there's always been a plan to replace them - even if it kept getting delayed.

 

[Via Bank]

Surprising they never thought PIS was useful on a route with a varying stopping pattern and two major international airports on...

In all likelihood, one very simple reason: £££££££££

Of course, this doesn't mean it's acceptable. Given the 319s' public address system can be a little moody, the Thameslink stopping pattern, as stands, is very irregular especially during the peaks, and it's a 24-hour service serving three international gateways—plus the fact FCC's new CIS doesn't announce the current station on the platforms any more—the fact they have not been fitted with a PIS already is simply not good enough, no matter what reason is put forward for it.

 

[AM9]

In all likelihood, one very simple reason: £££££££££

Of course, this doesn't mean it's acceptable. Given the 319s' public address system can be a little moody, the Thameslink stopping pattern, as stands, is very irregular especially during the peaks, and it's a 24-hour service serving three international gateways—plus the fact FCC's new CIS doesn't announce the current station on the platforms any more—the fact they have not been fitted with a PIS already is simply not good enough, no matter what reason is put forward for it.

You can say that, there'll be howls of disbelief here that London and the South East don't get whatever they want irrespective of cost!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

319.363 was in service today working (I think) 14.24 Bedford - Brighton coupled to 005.

No doubt my last ever sighting of it before it moves north

 

[Darren R]

319.363 was in service today working (I think) 14.24 Bedford - Brighton coupled to 005.

No doubt my last ever sighting of it before it moves north

But your loss is our gain!

 

[hassaanhc]

But your loss is our gain!

I also saw it the other week, on a Sutton circular service

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But your loss is our gain!

I only posted because I thought it had already gone to Wolverton...

I know these units are slated by many who travel on them on FCC but lets not forget that 319.361 - 386 were originally built as 319.161 - 186 and are actually newer than their earlier cousins, but from the state of the interiors, one wouldn't think so...

I hope the units are looked after oop north...

 

[12CSVT]

I only posted because I thought it had already gone to Wolverton...

I know these units are slated by many who travel on them on FCC but lets not forget that 319.361 - 386 were originally built as 319.161 - 186 and are actually newer than their earlier cousins, but from the state of the interiors, one wouldn't think so...

I hope the units are looked after oop north...

Give that the 319s are now around quarter of a century old, I don't think being a couple of years later off the production line will make much difference to their overall condition.

 

[childwallblues]

The wires on Allerton Depot are I understand due to go live this weekend. As they have not been used for many years (since the 303/304s left the area) I should imagine a fair bit of testing is required.
Some Northern drivers are route learning Liverpool South Parkway to Crewe prior to full driver training on 319s commencing.

The main line through Liverpool South Parkway was closed yesterday for replacement of the OHLE between Allerton Depot and the Crewe to Liverpool down fast.

 

[92002]

You can say that, there'll be howls of disbelief here that London and the South East don't get whatever they want irrespective of cost!

Given the current state of the 319s and how well they have been looking after them. The solution would seem to give the new 387s to Northern. Don't let them anywhere near Thameslink to be wrecked. They are only after all a stopgap solution there until the 700s are delivered shortly.

Sounds like the mandarins in DfT who try and decide what goes where live and travel on Thameslink.

When the 700s arrive scrap the 319s or do them up and keep the junk down South. Where they can be given more tlc.

 

[Bantamzen]

A 319 appears to have moved up to Wolverton during the early hours:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P90435/2014/09/01/advanced

It left Bedford at 02:47 & arrived at Wolverton at around 06:00. Could this have been 319.363?

 

[AM9]

Given the current state of the 319s and how well they have been looking after them. The solution would seem to give the new 387s to Northern. Don't let them anywhere near Thameslink to be wrecked. They are only after all a stopgap solution there until the 700s are delivered shortly.

Sounds like the mandarins in DfT who try and decide what goes where live and travel on Thameslink.

When the 700s arrive scrap the 319s or do them up and keep the junk down South. Where they can be given more tlc.

I'm sure that if they are used as heavily in the north or anywhere else as they have been on Thameslink, and had the same amount of maintenance as FCC afforded them, their condition would be much the same. They are amongst the most intensively used stock in the UK.
The main issue for most of the South-East commuter lines is reliability under such intense working conditions rather than internal cosmetics, despite the larger than UK average white collar ridership.

 

[Y961 XBU]

will the next 319 to Liverpool be coming under its own power?

 

[northwichcat]

will the next 319 to Liverpool be coming under its own power?

Apparently they need a pantograph change before they can run on the newly installed overheads, so that would need to be changed before they reach Allerton if they are to run under their own power.

 

[physics34]

Given the current state of the 319s and how well they have been looking after them. The solution would seem to give the new 387s to Northern. Don't let them anywhere near Thameslink to be wrecked. They are only after all a stopgap solution there until the 700s are delivered shortly.

Sounds like the mandarins in DfT who try and decide what goes where live and travel on Thameslink.

When the 700s arrive scrap the 319s or do them up and keep the junk down South. Where they can be given more tlc.

Junk??? How dare you say that about these beauties!!

 

[Aictos]

Junk??? How dare you say that about these beauties!!

Send more 319s northwards

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given the current state of the 319s and how well they have been looking after them. The solution would seem to give the new 387s to Northern. Don't let them anywhere near Thameslink to be wrecked. They are only after all a stopgap solution there until the 700s are delivered shortly.
Sounds like the mandarins in DfT who try and decide what goes where live and travel on Thameslink.
When the 700s arrive scrap the 319s or do them up and keep the junk down South. Where they can be given more tlc.

I'm sure you realize there are reasons Northern can't have the 387s:
- they can't afford them
- 387s would need specialist depots which Northern don't have (though Virgin and TPE do)
- they could not use more than the 14 Liverpool units planned initially, so the 387 fleet would be split which is inefficient

By the end of next year, with a new franchise and rolling stock plan agreed, things might look a little different.
319s are not junk. They are very similar to the splendid 320s you have on Clydeside.

 

[physics34]

Send more 319s northwards

nothing better than sitting in the motor coach doing 100mph.!
Noisier that 321s etc cos they are heavier.

 

[AM9]

Apparently they need a pantograph change before they can run on the newly installed overheads, so that would need to be changed before they reach Allerton if they are to run under their own power.

That's interesting. Do they have the Stone-Faiveley or the Brecknell Willis types? What's so special about the new NW knitting that kit that has been thrashing up the MML at 100mph and threading its way through the core for over 20 years can't cope with?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the current state of the 319s and how well they have been looking after them. The solution would seem to give the new 387s to Northern. Don't let them anywhere near Thameslink to be wrecked. They are only after all a stopgap solution there until the 700s are delivered shortly.

Sounds like the mandarins in DfT who try and decide what goes where live and travel on Thameslink.

When the 700s arrive scrap the 319s or do them up and keep the junk down South. Where they can be given more tlc.

What a waste of 110mph capable stock. How many miles of 100mph (let alone 110mph) do the Northern routes have?

 

[northwichcat]

That's interesting. Do they have the Stone-Faiveley or the Brecknell Willis types? What's so special about the new NW knitting that kit that has been thrashing up the MML at 100mph and threading its way through the core for over 20 years can't cope with?

From what I understand it's just the latest standard of wiring in the North West and the existing 319 pantograph can't be used on that.

What a waste of 110mph capable stock. How many miles of 100mph (let alone 110mph) do the Northern routes have?

Routes or services? Northern run a number of stopping services on the West Coast Mainline which has linespeeds of up to 110mph for non-tilting stock. However, as they are stopping services they'd need super fast acceleration to be able to get above 100mph. I don't think the 319s will be able to do above 90mph on the Liverpool-Manchester Airport services but apparently the 90mph 323s have superior acceleration so are better suited to remaining on the services to the likes Crewe and Stoke.

If you going to send 110mph stock to the North then TPE services would be a better place to send them. However, TPE have services which could potentially utilise 125mph stock - Liverpool to Newcastle and Manchester Airport to Scotland.

 

[edwin_m]

However, TPE have services which could potentially utilise 125mph stock - Liverpool to Newcastle and Manchester Airport to Scotland.

Not as it stands. The speed for non-tilting trains on the WCML remains at 110mph or less, although some of it could be increased if there was a reason to.

 

[northwichcat]

Not as it stands.

Only because TPE have non-tilting Desiros. If they had 125mph capable tilting units things would be different.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not as it stands. The speed for non-tilting trains on the WCML remains at 110mph or less, although some of it could be increased if there was a reason to.

They could do 125mph north of York.

 

[deltic08]

I'm sure you realize there are reasons Northern can't have the 387s:
- they can't afford them
- 387s would need specialist depots which Northern don't have (though Virgin and TPE do)
- they could not use more than the 14 Liverpool units planned initially, so the 387 fleet would be split which is inefficient

By the end of next year, with a new franchise and rolling stock plan agreed, things might look a little different.
319s are not junk. They are very similar to the splendid 320s you have on Clydeside.

What do you mean Northern can't afford 387s? Explain.

 

[Class377/5]

What do you mean Northern can't afford 387s? Explain.

They will cost around four times as much as a 319. There isn't the current money to fund that. The four times figures is rental cost of refurbished is twice that of unfurnished and new is twice that of refurbished.