Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[WatcherZero]

Was originally the plan but Government put it off, partly due to their urgent requirement and partly as the new Northern franchise wont have started. A proper refurbishment will probably be done by the next franchise including possibly reducing their length to increase their power to weight ratio, they may also invest in changing the saloon layout and more extensive rebranding (such as interior colours) beyond the simple removal of previous operator logo.

 

[thealexweb]

Heard originally on the NW-sparks website that they were going to be fitted.

The air-con and refurbishing has been dropped until 2016 at the earliest. We will lucky if they are thoroughly cleaned before entering service.

 

[physics34]

Heard originally on the NW-sparks website that they were going to be fitted.

The only thing I ever heard re: 319s and air con, was that the 319s that were going to Paddington -Oxford/Twyford/Newbury would be getting air con. Now we are not sure if the remaining 319s will end up there or not, as the 365s or 387s could even end up there.

 

[childwallblues]

14 can only just cover the routes going over to electric from December, even then its a push and because the Liverpool to Blackpool North can only run as far as Preston.

Liverpool to Blackpool is staying 150/156 until such time that Preston to Blackpool is wired. The through traffic detween the two areas warrants this.

 

[northwichcat]

Was originally the plan but Government put it off, partly due to their urgent requirement and partly as the new Northern franchise wont have started. A proper refurbishment will probably be done by the next franchise including possibly reducing their length to increase their power to weight ratio, they may also invest in changing the saloon layout and more extensive rebranding (such as interior colours) beyond the simple removal of previous operator logo.

According to Tony Miles DfT have asked Northern to do nothing to the 319s other than re-brand them probably to strengthen the case for rising fares in the next franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wonder what other EMU's we could get?

317s 321s, 365s, are all becoming available - but surely the aim will be to have a minimum number of unit types to ease maintenance, diagramming and crew training. So more 319s is by far the most likely.

 

[thealexweb]

317s 321s, 365s, are all becoming available - but surely the aim will be to have a minimum number of unit types to ease maintenance, diagramming and crew training. So more 319s is by far the most likely.

You have clearly never met Northern XD They are like lets get a bit of everything

 

[DJH1971]

317s 321s, 365s, are all becoming available - but surely the aim will be to have a minimum number of unit types to ease maintenance, diagramming and crew training. So more 319s is by far the most likely.

And more 319's in addition to the 14 already announced are said to be rumoured.

Would be nice to have a mix though!

 

[Kite159]

The Greater Anglia 315s will probably be available in a few years time when they are replaced with new trains by Crossrail & London Overground. I bet they end up heading north as well

 

[Class 170101]

I doubt the 315s will head north. Welsh Valleys maybe though given the ongoing dispute between the DfT/Treasury and Welsh Assembly over funding don't be surprised if they get scrapped without ever seeing service in the Valleys

 

[Stats]

And more 319's in addition to the 14 already announced are said to be rumoured.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2014-07-22a.206219.h dft are working on getting more emus going north

 

[Brian1947]

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2014-07-22a.206219.h dft are working on getting more emus going north

A knowledgeable response from someone who had only been in the job for a week! Clearly Sir Humphrey is still in charge at the DfT!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2014-07-22a.206219.h dft are working on getting more emus going north

No more EMUs are needed for 2 years (end of 2016).
A lot of work has to be done before the long-term Northern fleet is decided.
Until then they have to muddle through with cascades from the 14x319s.

 

[talltim]

Not really going to work when you want to push the unit though!

Thats what capstans are for
Or poling pockets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUb8PeeT2WI

 

[northwichcat]

No more EMUs are needed for 2 years (end of 2016).
A lot of work has to be done before the long-term Northern fleet is decided.
Until then they have to muddle through with cascades from the 14x319s.

That's assuming Blackpool electrification is behind schedule and stays behind. Liverpool South Parkway - Blackpool North should have gone over to electric in May 2016, with the services via Chorley following in December 2016.

Although, it looks like the MP was avoiding the problem when answering the question:
* Northern apparently have a guarantee they won't lose any DMUs when they get 14 x 319s for extra capacity and don't have any need to take on extra EMUs before the end of the franchise in early 2016.
* Chiltern can take TPE's 170/3s from May 2015.

A couple of extra 350s for TPE on a permanent basis would partially solve the problem but wouldn't stretch far enough to replace the 170s.

EDIT: Actually I wonder if that could be the plan. A couple of extra 319s for Northern to run the Airport-Piccadilly stoppers, to allow 2 x 323s to be sub-leased to LM, to in turn allow 2 x 350/3s to be subleased to TPE.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's assuming Blackpool electrification is behind schedule and stays behind. Liverpool South Parkway - Blackpool North should have gone over to electric in May 2016, with the services via Chorley following in December 2016.

They are still holding to the May 2016 for Blackpool, but the Grip 3 date is December 2014 (later than that for Phase 4), and there is no confirmed project plan.

 

[Manchester77]

EDIT: Actually I wonder if that could be the plan. A couple of extra 319s for Northern to run the Airport-Piccadilly stoppers, to allow 2 x 323s to be sub-leased to LM, to in turn allow 2 x 350/3s to be subleased to TPE.

I proposed to use 319s for the Piccadilly - Airport previously but was told that their acceleration was too poor to fit in with the expresses which use the line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I proposed to use 319s for the Piccadilly - Airport previously but was told that their acceleration was too poor to fit in with the expresses which use the line.

Despite all sorts of ancient DMUs being used on the line for services to Liverpool/Southport...

 

[fowler9]

Despite all sorts of ancient DMUs being used on the line for services to Liverpool/Southport...

Hey you, those ancient DMU's aren't as old as me!

 

[northwichcat]

Despite all sorts of ancient DMUs being used on the line for services to Liverpool/Southport...

The DMUs run non-stop between Piccadilly and the Airport.

 

[Class377/5]

Despite all sorts of ancient DMUs being used on the line for services to Liverpool/Southport...

Curious point, especially when the 319s have been weaving around faster HST and Meridian's as well as faster accelerating 377 express service, I've never been convinced that the 319s acceleration in the real world is as bad as the theory on here suggest.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

319 acceleration is poor compared to the 323s, but I'd have thought anything else would not be a problem, especially on the all-shacks Picc - Airport services. The Crewe and Stoke services have to fit around Pendolinos though, not quite as easy!

 

[northwichcat]

Is that because their not compatible with the new OHLE or just worn out?

Incompatible with the new type of wiring used.

 

[AM9]

319 acceleration is poor compared to the 323s, but I'd have thought anything else would not be a problem, especially on the all-shacks Picc - Airport services. The Crewe and Stoke services have to fit around Pendolinos though, not quite as easy!

But how do 319s compare for acceleration beyond 30mph, with heavily loaded 156s or whatever runs along that route at the moment?

 

[WatcherZero]

Curious point, especially when the 319s have been weaving around faster HST and Meridian's as well as faster accelerating 377 express service, I've never been convinced that the 319s acceleration in the real world is as bad as the theory on here suggest.

Not our theory, that of the ROSCO that owns them in their brochure.

 

[northwichcat]

Curious point, especially when the 319s have been weaving around faster HST and Meridian's as well as faster accelerating 377 express service, I've never been convinced that the 319s acceleration in the real world is as bad as the theory on here suggest.

Apparently Porterbrook did computer simulations to show how they would fair in comparison to other EMUs and the results they got weren't good on stopping services which is why they came up with an option for faster acceleration.

The units are capable of 100 mph operation and are
fitted with enhanced emergency braking. The high
speed gearing means tractive effort at slow speed is
not optimised, but if the units are required for “Metro”
type services the traction motors can be re-geared.
This takes away the 100 mph capability but give better
acceleration so on diagrams with short station spacing
the overall journey time will be improved. A further
improvement can be made by fitting new traction
equipment as described on the next page.

 

[table38]

I think we ought to stop mentioning acceleration before someone at the DfT suggests re-engineering them to three-car units

 

[northwichcat]

But how do 319s compare for acceleration beyond 30mph, with heavily loaded 156s or whatever runs along that route at the moment?

Just to be clear.

The all-stops services between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport are usually provided by 323s.

The diesel services on that line usually run non-stop.

The suggestion made earlier in the thread was could 2 x 319s replace 2 x 323s on that line to be sub-leased to LM to allow LM to sub-lease 2 x 350s to TPE to partly fill the void that will be created when Chiltern take the 170/3s?

 

[AM9]

Just to be clear.

The all-stops services between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport are usually provided by 323s.

The diesel services on that line usually run non-stop.

The suggestion made earlier in the thread was could 2 x 319s replace 2 x 323s on that line to be sub-leased to LM to allow LM to sub-lease 2 x 350s to TPE to partly fill the void that will be created when Chiltern take the 170/3s?

Thanks for that, that jogged my memory.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The suggestion made earlier in the thread was could 2 x 319s replace 2 x 323s on that line to be sub-leased to LM to allow LM to sub-lease 2 x 350s to TPE to partly fill the void that will be created when Chiltern take the 170/3s?

Is this so the Airport-Scotland services become 100% electric?