Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Moonshot]

Is that why at stations like Preston you hear actual passengers saying things like "We'll get the Northern service because the TPE service will be packed" or conversely "We'll get the TPE service because they have proper trains."

A Scottish passenger once got on an ex-LM 150/1 at Manchester Piccadilly which was running the semi-fast to Liverpool. He then said "This train's a load of ****e. I'm getting the next train" and walked off.

So what .......do you think 1 Scottish passenger is going to make a difference ? Clearly not a member of the Pacer Apperciation Society which believe it or not actually exists!!

Like I said, passengers simply want to get from A to B - the fact that Northern have older trains than most hasnt deterred the 5% yearly growth of passengers on the network.

 

[northwichcat]

So what .......do you think 1 Scottish passenger is going to make a difference ? Clearly not a member of the Pacer Apperciation Society which believe it or not actually exists!!

It does have a point though. There was a TPE service 10 minutes later so he was probably going to Liverpool and didn't realise that Northern trains are inferior to TPE and EMT trains until he got on one!

What have 150s got to do with the Pacer Appreciation Society? I would have thought members would hate it when a 150 shows up.

Like I said, passengers simply want to get from A to B - the fact that Northern have older trains than most hasnt deterred the 5% yearly growth of passengers on the network.

Which has a lot to do with rising petrol prices, car ownership decreasing and subsided bus services being axed. The alternatives are no longer viable for some people.

Have you actually asked your passengers about how satisfied they are or do you just rely on reading in to statistics about passenger growth and drawing conclusions from them?

 

[Moonshot]

It does have a point though. There was a TPE service 10 minutes later so he was probably going to Liverpool and didn't realise that Northern trains are inferior to TPE and EMT trains until he got on one!

What have 150s got to do with the Pacer Appreciation Society? I would have thought members would hate it when a 150 shows up.



Which has a lot to do with rising petrol prices, car ownership decreasing and subsided bus services being axed. The alternatives are no longer viable for some people.

Have you actually asked your passengers about how satisfied they are or do you just rely on reading in to statistics about passenger growth and drawing conclusions from them?

I certainly dont ask passengers " do you realise that once, a Scottish passenger turned his nose up at a Northern train and got a different one !!" .

Of course we could always hand the entire rail network over to the private sector and let the juices of free market competition flow......but of course that is unlikely. So whilst the Northern Network still carries a hefty subsidy tag AND fares which are stifled by DFT regulations, the reality is that super dooper all singing all dancing state of the art rolling stock is very unlikely to feature on Northerns Network. And that really is the reality no matter what you spout.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Clearly not a member of the Pacer Apperciation Society which believe it or not actually exists!!

My congratulations on finding a new word, highlighted above, to add to my extensive knowledge of the English Language.

Can you now give its definition ?

 

[Starmill]

I Frankly the average passenger wont care what they look like or how old they are, they simply have no interest.

This could not be further from the truth, it's a fact that modern passengers value comfort and facilities. If what you say is true, why do we not have trains which are just metal tubes with bare steel interiors and no fittings (like seats) whatsoever?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clearly not a member of the Pacer Apperciation Society which believe it or not actually exists!!

Yes and are any of its members ordinary passengers?

 

[Moonshot]

This could not be further from the truth, it's a fact that modern passengers value comfort and facilities. If what you say is true, why do we not have trains which are just metal tubes with bare steel interiors and no fittings (like seats) whatsoever?

Would modern passengers be prepared to have the cost of that reflected in their ticket prices?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern put on their official Twitter feed that the 319s won't be refurbished but will be made to look more like Northern Rail trains.

So, Northern's house moquette (with no attention paid to other fixtures which clash with it) and a liberal spread of Lucozade bottles (some part-filled with a dubious-looking yellow liquid) then?

 

[deltic08]

Once FCC are able to release the 319's, just refurbish them, repaint them so that they look nice and shiney and the average commuter will think they're getting a new train.

I really can't see what all the fuss is about...

Not without changing the window glass they won't.
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I didn't, I was was quite happy with my new 317s and then a few years later new 319s. If I hadn't moved north, I could be happy with my new 377s and be looking forward to my new 700s

Well said
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what .......do you think 1 Scottish passenger is going to make a difference ? Clearly not a member of the Pacer Apperciation Society which believe it or not actually exists!!

Like I said, passengers simply want to get from A to B - the fact that Northern have older trains than most hasnt deterred the 5% yearly growth of passengers on the network.

Wrong. In the latest ORR station usage figures 2012/13, growth slumped to 1.7% in Northern Trains area. In fact many stations had their first negative growth since privatisation. Perhaps Pacers, crush loading, grubby interiors and cancellations is beginning to bite. I was a regular user but have only once used a Northern train in 18 months preferring to use my car.

 

[Starmill]

Would modern passengers be prepared to have the cost of that reflected in their ticket prices?

IMHO there's already more than enough revenue there to justify basic standards of comfort and facilities. It's not like they need to be luxurious. Look at the interior of a 380. In no way are ticket prices in Scotland inflated to reflect that interior over those in the North West which are rewarded with pacer interiors (all of which = unacceptable in many ways).

 

[Clip]

This could not be further from the truth, it's a fact that modern passengers value comfort and facilities. If what you say is true, why do we not have trains which are just metal tubes with bare steel interiors and no fittings (like seats) whatsoever?

Indeed they do. So surely you must agree that by having a 4 coach 319 with more seats(thus more chance of sitting down) is better than standing on a 2 car DMU for your whole journey?

Good, thats that one settled then because I can assure you that the biggest gripe among non enthusiasts(i.e most of the rail using country) getting a seat rather than standing is always more prefereable no matter what the stock is.

And I know this because i have being listening to passenger feedback for more years now then I care to even contemplate and the number one issue has always been the lack of seats. All over the country its the same.

 

[jon0844]

I think you will find that Southern totally refurbished 19 313 units before introduction on your line. If cascaded 319s were refurbished to the same standard then there would no outrage in the North, but they are not even being refreshed to remove the hypocritical London stench before introduction.

Aren't the 319s going to be life extended by getting a massive rebuild, which will see an all-new interior and air conditioning? Just as the 317s will almost certainly get the same treatment, and the 321s (the latter two already having demonstrators in service)?

That the upgrade work isn't being done right away doesn't change the fact that they WILL get the work done. Surely, it's better to get them moved and in service ASAP?

I've said before that if we didn't HAVE to have new trains that have ATO and will work with the new signalling that will come in over the coming years, I'd have been quite happy to keep the 319s and get them refurbished. They're great trains, along with the others built around the same time.

At some point, it seems we might also lose the 365s too. That will also be a sad day, and I hope those that will get them won't be moaning.

 

[LBSCR Times]

As a regular (almost daily) user of 319 units, it will be a sad day to see them go.....
These units, and 442's, are about the only decent stock south of the Thames that can clear ice and snow from the conductor rail (as long as it's not too deep), as they did a couple of years ago between Brighton and Three Bridges one morning after weekend engineering works.

 

[Starmill]

That the upgrade work isn't being done right away doesn't change the fact that they WILL get the work done.

I think your words are probably worth less than Lord Adonis' those years ago.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed they do. So surely you must agree that by having a 4 coach 319 with more seats(thus more chance of sitting down) is better than standing on a 2 car DMU for your whole journey?

Good, thats that one settled then because I can assure you that the biggest gripe among non enthusiasts(i.e most of the rail using country) getting a seat rather than standing is always more prefereable no matter what the stock is.

And I know this because i have being listening to passenger feedback for more years now then I care to even contemplate and the number one issue has always been the lack of seats. All over the country its the same.

Indeed it is !! No matter what colour the train is , or whether its electric or not, or has toilets etc.....for all the hoo haa the trainspotters spout on about, the reality is that all passengers want is to get a seat. My understanding is that the DFT specify that a passenger should have to stand for no more than 20 minutes on a journey , which interestingly enough is just about the time the journey takes from Bolton to Manchester - which frequently gets mentioned on here.

 

[jon0844]

I think your words are probably worth less than Lord Adonis' those years ago.

I am not trying to compete with anyone!

Ultimately, the ROSCO will want to extend their life so they can continue to earn money. And as long as they are still workable, why should they be replaced with some cheap plastic train that will probably have months of teething troubles?

 

[Starmill]

Indeed it is !! No matter what colour the train is , or whether its electric or not, or has toilets etc.....for all the hoo haa the trainspotters spout on about, the reality is that all passengers want is to get a seat. My understanding is that the DFT specify that a passenger should have to stand for no more than 20 minutes on a journey , which interestingly enough is just about the time the journey takes from Bolton to Manchester - which frequently gets mentioned on here.

'Passengers do not care if the train has toilets or not.'

Is this a statement you honestly believe? We aren't even talking about 319s or any other stock in the North here, I just can't believe you think this.

Have you ever actually been on a train...

 

[Moonshot]

'Passengers do not care if the train has toilets or not.'

Is this a statement you honestly believe? We aren't even talking about 319s or any other stock in the North here, I just can't believe you think this.

Have you ever actually been on a train...

Certainly not on the shorter journeys ......I ll grant that on the longer ones yes

Have I ever been on a train ?? Lol .........dear me

 

[LBSCR Times]

Certainly not on the shorter journeys ......I ll grant that on the longer ones yes

They certainly do when Southern replaced modern 377's, with toilets, to 313's, without toilets, on the Brighton to Portsmouth route, and that is a journey of only 80 minutes!

 

[jon0844]

Over the years, I've used the toilet on a train that has a journey time of some 25 minutes or less.

Sometimes you need to go. At other times, it's convenient to be able to go before alighting, or without having to rush to go before you board.

I don't know if the 313 replacements to Moorgate might get toilets (I suspect not) but I do think they are a good idea on any service where there are people who might go the whole distance - as against a tube service where many are only on for a small number of stops (and might also be able to easily alight and find a toilet nearby).

 

[Moonshot]

They certainly do when Southern replaced modern 377's, with toilets, to 313's, without toilets, on the Brighton to Portsmouth route, and that is a journey of only 80 minutes!

Ok hypothetical question here.....one of our shortest jobs is Stalybridge to Manchester, takes about 15 mins. If Northern were to dedicate a new train to that service only, do you think it should have a toilet or more seats instead of a toilet?

 

[deltic08]

As a regular (almost daily) user of 319 units, it will be a sad day to see them go.....
These units, and 442's, are about the only decent stock south of the Thames that can clear ice and snow from the conductor rail (as long as it's not too deep), as they did a couple of years ago between Brighton and Three Bridges one morning after weekend engineering works.

Keep them then as there is no 3rd rail up here for them to clear.
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Ok hypothetical question here.....one of our shortest jobs is Stalybridge to Manchester, takes about 15 mins. If Northern were to dedicate a new train to that service only, do you think it should have a toilet or more seats instead of a toilet?

Do you hate your job with Northern? You certainly give that impression and that you don't care about the needs of your passengers. Without them you wouldn't have a job. One unit would not shuttle between Man Vic and Stalybridge only throughout its entire life and you know it so toilets are necessary for other diagrams. Unless of course you are deliberately being devils advocate.

 

[Moonshot]

Why don't you then as there is no 3rd rail up here for them to clear.
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Do you hate your job with Northern? You certainly give the impression that you don't care about the needs of your passengers. Without them you wouldn't have a job.

Your post has absolutely no relevance to what I was asking ( which was a hypothetical question )

 

[Starmill]

Your post has absolutely no relevance to what I was asking ( which was a hypothetical question )

With the greatest respect, that's because your question isn't really relevant either.

Good point about the needs of your passengers though. If you have any.

 

[Moonshot]

With the greatest respect, that's because your question isn't really relevant either.

Good point about the needs of your passengers though. If you have any.

starmill - I m asking a hypothetical question here, I dont really care if you think its relevant or not. If you can answer it with a decent answer then fire away, if not , dont bother replying...

 

[deltic08]

Your post has absolutely no relevance to what I was asking ( which was a hypothetical question )

Hypothetical means less than logic or reality. If every passenger hypothetically had a colostomy stoma and bag with bladder catheterization and bag then toilets would not be necessary on your hypothetical train. But we live in a real world where conditions such a irritable bowel and benign enlargement of the prostate abound as well as sudden involuntary projectile vomiting. Get real.

 

[Moonshot]

Hypothetical means less than logic or reality. If every passenger hypothetically had a colostomy stoma and bag with bladder catheterization and bag then toilets would not be necessary on your hypothetical train. But we live in a real world where conditions such a irritable bowel and benign enlargement of the prostate abound as well as sudden involuntary projectile vomiting. Get real.

I never mentioned anything about medical conditions......I simply asked a hypothetical question. This is a discussion forum after all, so some " blue sky " thinking invariably crops up, with forumites asking hypothetical questions on a quite regular basis.

So I ll just ask it again ( and again stress its hypothetical ) - Do you think that if Northern dedicated a unit for Stalybridge to Manchester , it should have a toilet or more seats?

 

[Starmill]

starmill - I m asking a hypothetical question here, I dont really care if you think its relevant or not. If you can answer it with a decent answer then fire away, if not , dont bother replying...

It's not relevant to the thread (you have just been told that twice) - and is just another way for you to try to manipulate people.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Sometimes it's like mumsnet on here!

What exactly would you think an interior refurbishment of the 319s should have?

I'd quite like an overhaul of the current commuter-based seating, perhaps rearranged to be to have a mixture of 2x2 table seating, and airline seats with decent footroom. CIS installation and an overhaul of the current PA system (it's not usually that clear at the moment) wouldn't be amiss either.

 

[Moonshot]

It's not relevant to the thread (you have just been told that twice) - and is just another way for you to try to manipulate people.

I rather think it is relevant to the thread - as I was reading a piece on toilet facilities on Class 319 units, which my posts will eventually incorporate.

Im not sure what you mean by " manipulating people " but again stress you dont need to reply to my posts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sometimes it's like mumsnet on here!

What exactly would you think an interior refurbishment of the 319s should have?

I'd quite like an overhaul of the current commuter-based seating, perhaps rearranged to be to have a mixture of 2x2 table seating, and airline seats with decent footroom. CIS installation and an overhaul of the current PA system (it's not usually that clear at the moment) wouldn't be amiss either.

Thats not an altogether bad idea.....and in fact the piece I was reading on these electric units appear to have some merit for those

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sometimes it's like mumsnet on here!

What exactly would you think an interior refurbishment of the 319s should have?

I'd quite like an overhaul of the current commuter-based seating, perhaps rearranged to be to have a mixture of 2x2 table seating, and airline seats with decent footroom. CIS installation and an overhaul of the current PA system (it's not usually that clear at the moment) wouldn't be amiss either.

I'd argue that 3+2 seating is fine on 20m MkIII-based stock, though perhaps 2+2 would be better in the central section of each car to allow more standing space in the peaks.
Tables I'd suggest is a no-no unless it's those 'half-tables' as on the 318s/320s- perhaps ones that can fold away like those in the wheelchair areas of 158s & 185s. Reliable and audible PA systems and PIS screens will be required post-2020, so that's a given. In 3+2 areas, some airline seating would be okay in the '2's but I'd avoid it on the 3-seat side due to the difficulty some people would have in getting to the window seat, especially when it's busy! Taking the 333s as an example, all seats on the '3' side are facing bays, whereas the '2' side is a mixture of airline & facing seats.

Returning to Moonshot's hypothetical question, I imagine that if a new unit was to be dedicated to Stalybridge shuttles it probably wouldn't have toilets fitted, as there'd simply be little need for them- Metrolink's M5000s don't have toilets despite being used for fairly long journeys to places like Bury and Altrincham! In addition, any business case for a small dedicated fleet would require costs to be trimmed at every opportunity!
Of course such a move would require a complete overhaul of the way resources are managed on the railways though, hence why the posed question was hypothetical.

With the 319s though, toilets are and will continue to be provided- whether a new, accessible toilet would replace the current one or be an addition to it will be down to the ROSCOs and TOCs to decide.