Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Class83]

I wonder if some London & South East commuters in the 1980s complained about the north getting brand new Sprinters and Super-Sprinters.

Well the 319s are basically the electric equivalent to 150s so everyone would be happy in the 80s.

The cast off trains thing gives a bad perception, but the only problem with unrefurbished 319s is that they replace 156s which are (internally) about the only northern diesel stock which is acceptable. Some new seats and a coat of paint and they'll do for 10 years when hopefully the capital expenditure for the electrification will be done and northern can actually get some new units.

 

[deltic08]

The class 313s were 35 years old when introduced as 'new' trains in Sussex, which isn't in the north.

I think you will find that Southern totally refurbished 19 313 units before introduction on your line. If cascaded 319s were refurbished to the same standard then there would no outrage in the North, but they are not even being refreshed to remove the hypocritical London stench before introduction.

 

[Clip]

I think you will find that Southern totally refurbished 19 313 units before introduction on your line. If cascaded 319s were refurbished to the same standard then there would no outrage in the North, but they are not even being refreshed to remove the hypocritical London stench before introduction.

Well if thats the case then I guess that London stench will be quickly overridden by the stench of the great unwashed of Yorkshire.

 

[Bishopstone]

I think you will find that Southern totally refurbished 19 313 units before introduction on your line. If cascaded 319s were refurbished to the same standard then there would no outrage in the North, but they are not even being refreshed to remove the hypocritical London stench before introduction.

The 319s were refreshed relatively recently. They are good to go, with a deep clean etc.

The 313s have no toilets, and the seats - whilst new at the refurb - are very hard 'ironing board' affairs. Seriously, is that the 'same standard' you want for the 319s?

 

[Grumpy]

The 308s were perfectly good for years more use

:roll:

Well if they were perfectly good for years more use why weren't they left where they were i.e. on the GE?

 

[Yabbadabba]

I thought part of the problem of why the 319s weren't being refurbished, is they are being transferred up north later than planed due to the late running of the class 700 order and now they are more in a hurry to run them on that expensive underused overhead wiring that's going up, than getting them properly refurbished.

I agree with bishopstone in that I wouldn't mind 20 of them remaining down here and replace the dreadful 313 on the south coast locals (at least they have toilets) or even better keep the whole fleet and replace all of the 313s and 455s.

Then maybe Northen can start to lobby to get new trains?

 

[Grumpy]

the only problem with unrefurbished 319s is that they replace 156s which are (internally) about the only northern diesel stock which is acceptable.

I thought the theory was there was to be a rippling down and it was likely to be 142's being replaced.

The 156's are noisy, draughty and slow and aren't a patch on the 158's

 

[deltic08]

I wonder if some London & South East commuters in the 1980s complained about the north getting brand new Sprinters and Super-Sprinters.

Believe me, they were not an improvement over loco hauled Mark 2s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I remember writing to my MP about the disgraceful decision to introduce 333s, all that money just to carry northeners around, then they got extra carriages as well !! The 308s were perfectly good for years more use and the 333s could have been used properly in London

:roll:

With regard to the 333s, I hope you're joking...

It's often quoted on these forums that many travellers thought the 308s were new trains when introduced on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines. Somehow I don't quite buy that, but I do know that when the Merseyrail units were refurbished they definitely were seen as totally new trains by many. A similar job was done on Southern's Coastway 313s/SWTs 455s, and that's got to be the benchmark for any future refurbishment of the 319s once the franchising mess is sorted.

The 308s were nevertheless very welcome (3x20m replacing 2x15m on many services) as they meant significantly less chance of being left behind! They were also far more comfortable than a 141/142/144 with their sprung, high-backed seats as opposed to bus benches! The 'Sparks effect' though meant that by the time the 333s came along the extra capacity was definitely needed, especially in the peaks. In fact, there should have been 4-6 more ordered, as the 321s would have been useful 'down South' back then and it'd have given Neville Hill just one EMU type to deal with (for now!).

 

[Class83]

I thought the theory was there was to be a rippling down and it was likely to be 142's being replaced.

The 156's are noisy, draughty and slow and aren't a patch on the 158's

The 319s are indirectly replacing the 142s, well supplementing at first as despite the state of the 142s they are marginally better than no train at all and there is a serious shortage of rolling stock. However, on the actual routes they are to be used on the swap will be 156 for 319. Last time I was on a 158 in Northernland the seats were falling apart, though that may have been a TPE one as it was a while back. They are a bit loud, which will be the big advantage of the 319s.

 

[sirbobpaisley]

Ok, so lets try and put a price on this.

How many new build MUs do you think would be sufficient for the north?

I reckon theres a lot of factors in working out value for money when procuring a new fleet including more than likely a new depot(s) and also how intensively they will be used and how long you think they should last for.

Its not because I live in the south but I see no reason why perfectly usable trains like the 319s cannot be used elsewhere on the network when they get displaced - theres a good few years left in them yet.

If the 319s still have a good few years left in them then why not keep them in London and we get the new rolling stock in the North?

 

[edwin_m]

If the 319s still have a good few years left in them then why not keep them in London and we get the new rolling stock in the North?

The Thameslink route where they work now is being upgraded and needs stock with metro-style interiors, automatic train operation and higher performance to run the very intensive service across central London.

The only other place suggested for them is the GW suburban lines but the view here seems to be that a higher performance unit is required as a lot of the running will be on the fast lines.

These issues are less of a problem on the lines north and west of Manchester where they will definitely improve on the Pacers and Sprinters in terms of performance.

 

[Grumpy]

They were also far more comfortable than a 141/142/144 with their sprung, high-backed seats as opposed to bus benches! The 'Sparks effect' though meant that by the time the 333s came along the extra capacity was definitely needed, especially in the peaks. In fact, there should have been 4-6 more ordered, as the 321s would have been useful 'down South' back then and it'd have given Neville Hill just one EMU type to deal with (for now!).

I notice you show your location as Colne Valley, and I wonder if you did much travelling on these units.

I commuted on the 144's and then the 308's. 5 days a week. The 144's were vastly more pleasant than the 308's. The bench seats had adequate padding, correct rake, and enough leg room. Along came the 308's and although they had what looked to be more substantial seats they were in fact less comfortable. They had a more erect rake making them less comfortable for your back, and they had a shorter cushion giving less support to thighs. I seem to remember a lot of these seats falling apart. All the narrow side doors meant they were more difficult to join/leave-you had to try to avoid tripping on the feet of the poor unfortunates sitting by the doors (and if you were one of the unfortunates then you had to be prepared to have your feet trodden on). If you had any sort of bulky luggage/ pushchair etc then access was considerably easier through the power doors of the 144's.

 

[Clip]

If the 319s still have a good few years left in them then why not keep them in London and we get the new rolling stock in the North?

I think you are being deliberately obtuse here, especially with you not even bothering to answer my question. You know very well that the Cl700s are being built specifically for the TL project which as edwin has pointed out has ATO specification to enable much higher capacity than is available at the moment and as you well know capacity is at a massive premium down in London - not deny the North West doesnt have the same but thats where the 319s come in to assist in alleviating that.

 

[Grumpy]

The Thameslink route where they work now is being upgraded and needs stock with metro-style interiors, automatic train operation and higher performance to run the very intensive service across central London.

The only other place suggested for them is the GW suburban lines but the view here seems to be that a higher performance unit is required as a lot of the running will be on the fast lines.

These issues are less of a problem on the lines north and west of Manchester where they will definitely improve on the Pacers and Sprinters in terms of performance.

I think most would accept that the 319's are a small step up. I am even prepared to accept that there may be a case for replacing the 319's on Thameslink (although the comment re Metro interiors might be disputed by the longer distance commuters, and I cdont understand why they cant be retrofitted with ATO and the traction eqpt upgraded. Surely cheaper than new trains.)

What seems to be annoying most up here is that "the south" always seems to get new EMU's whilst " the north" has to make do (most of the time) with the south's leavings. If we're having a newly electrified line why cant we have new stock-"the south" would get new stock in these circumstances? Why cant the North West have new Electrostars and Southern keep the 319's for some of its other services? Or let Boris use them on his services rather than new all the time.
Nobody is really giving a sensible justification for what is proposed. The arguments are around-
"we should have better in the south because we pay more tax" which is debateable.
" we earn more down South so we deserve better" again which may be debateable but is certainly no justification (why should a bank clerk in London travel in better trains than a clerk doing an identical job for the same bank in Manchester purely because the former receives London allowance in his pay?).
" the TOC's down South receive less subsidy so can afford better trains". What cash goes in/out of the TOC's is effectively a Government decision who have also decreed the services to run. So why should our Manchester bank clerk suffer because his TOC's subsidy level reflects having to run some basket case services (eg Settle-Carlisle) at Government request. Manchester-Liverpool may be profitable for all we know.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I notice you show your location as Colne Valley, and I wonder if you did much travelling on these units.

I commuted on the 144's and then the 308's. 5 days a week. The 144's were vastly more pleasant than the 308's. The bench seats had adequate padding, correct rake, and enough leg room. Along came the 308's and although they had what looked to be more substantial seats they were in fact less comfortable. They had a more erect rake making them less comfortable for your back, and they had a shorter cushion giving less support to thighs. I seem to remember a lot of these seats falling apart. All the narrow side doors meant they were more difficult to join/leave-you had to try to avoid tripping on the feet of the poor unfortunates sitting by the doors (and if you were one of the unfortunates then you had to be prepared to have your feet trodden on). If you had any sort of bulky luggage/ pushchair etc then access was considerably easier through the power doors of the 144's.

I travelled on them a fair bit as I had family in the Baildon area, but admittedly as a youth and generally off-peak. The 308s as you say were not ideal for everyone- and I disagree wholeheartedly with the poster who suggested they should have stayed with the 333s going to the South, for 'real' people! :roll:
What the 308s undoubtedly gave was a big boost in capacity. I'm not sure when the Bradford-Skipton/Ilkley lines went 2tph, but the Leeds-Shipley-Forster Square service began with electrification and will fairly shortly have 2 new stations added to it.

 

[Clip]

Nobody is really giving a sensible justification for what is proposed. The arguments are around-
"we should have better in the south because we pay more tax" which is debateable.
" we earn more down South so we deserve better" again which may be debateable but is certainly no justification (why should a bank clerk in London travel in better trains than a clerk doing an identical job for the same bank in Manchester purely because the former receives London allowance in his pay?).
" the TOC's down South receive less subsidy so can afford better trains". .

I don think anyone has said that. What they have said is in reply to people who have said about the funding for stuff like the Olympics where we did in fact have to pay a higher amount of council tax for - if people cant get their facts correct when discussing it then thats not worth debating.

And I have asked this before but it seems no one has answered it - TfL and our Mayor do a very good job in securing funding from both businesses and also from central govt whilst using their own funds to bring about projects like Crossrail - Why are the PTE's and other transport bodies so inept in raising money in the same way?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ISo why should our Manchester bank clerk suffer because his TOC's subsidy level reflects having to run some basket case services (eg Settle-Carlisle) at Government request. Manchester-Liverpool may be profitable for all we know.

Because all Northern's services are basket cases (pretty much, compared to the south east).
To be fair, so are most of those in the south-west, Wales and most of Scotland.
The subsidy (per passenger, per train, whichever way you cut it) is too high.
2-car double-manned DMUs do not compare with 8/12-car single-manned EMUs in the south-east, even if both trains are packed.
There are a few battles to be fought before Northern gets new trains (as it will, but not this side of 2018, after the new franchise has been let).

 

[GatwickDepress]

When the Hastings Line was electrified in the mid-80s, they had a dedicated pool of 4-CEPs. The 4-CEPs were refurbished in the mid-70s, so it was hardly a brand new train the South were getting. They got a new "Jaffa Cake" livery though!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think most would accept that the 319's are a small step up. I am even prepared to accept that there may be a case for replacing the 319's on Thameslink (although the comment re Metro interiors might be disputed by the longer distance commuters, and I cdont understand why they cant be retrofitted with ATO and the traction eqpt upgraded. Surely cheaper than new trains.)....

The 'metro interiors' thing is a bit daft as trains can have different seating arrangements, The ATO thing is quite a serious consideration, but as you point out, it's not impossible to retrofit. However, there are only 86 class 319s and with 12 coach trains required, that means there would be 28/29 trains for all the services run. It's simply not enough units (they couldn't manage all services with 8 coach trains before the 377s arrived and the 377s are basically 'on loan' as it is).

So if you are going to have to introduce a fleet of new trains anyway, you might as well have two standard fleets (one for Thameslink and one for Northern), rather than one standard fleet (Northern) and one mix and match fleet (Thameslink).

Is it not possible that the northwest are getting electric trains because someone realised that the 319s might otherwise be rusting for years while pacers got compliance upgrades.

 

[47802]

With regard to the 333s, I hope you're joking...

It's often quoted on these forums that many travellers thought the 308s were new trains when introduced on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines. Somehow I don't quite buy that, but I do know that when the Merseyrail units were refurbished they definitely were seen as totally new trains by many. A similar job was done on Southern's Coastway 313s/SWTs 455s, and that's got to be the benchmark for any future refurbishment of the 319s once the franchising mess is sorted.

The 308s were nevertheless very welcome (3x20m replacing 2x15m on many services) as they meant significantly less chance of being left behind! They were also far more comfortable than a 141/142/144 with their sprung, high-backed seats as opposed to bus benches! The 'Sparks effect' though meant that by the time the 333s came along the extra capacity was definitely needed, especially in the peaks. In fact, there should have been 4-6 more ordered, as the 321s would have been useful 'down South' back then and it'd have given Neville Hill just one EMU type to deal with (for now!).

I'm not which is the biggest joke there, the idea that some people thought 308's were new trains or complaining about getting 333 to replace them!

 

[Beveridges]

156's are loud but not as loud as 150's.

One advantage of the 319's is they will be very quiet compared to that thunderous engine beneath the Sprinter classes.

The Liverpool route that the 319's will initially be used on is a mix of 150/156 on the expresses to the Airport and 142's on the stoppers from Victoria so it is not just 156's that they are replacing.

When the whole north west triangle gets electrified they will replace what is (currently) mainly 150's on the Man Vic-Blackpool's, a mix of 150/156's on the Blackpool-Liverpool's and mainly 142's on the Wigan North Western - Liverpool stoppers.

They are not only replacing 156's, they're replacing a lot of low quality stock as well.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not which is the biggest joke there, the idea that some people thought 308's were new trains or complaining about getting 333 to replace them!

If the 333s had been bought for Great Eastern or Silverlink and the Shipley lines had been given cascaded 321s, I wouldn't have objected- although 321s have 20m cars rather than the 23m 333s so we might have needed more than 16! Again, that would at least give NL a common(ish) fleet.

The best solution all round would have been for BR to have been allowed to purchase extra 323s for the Shipley lines, but I'm in danger of drifting off-topic.

Getting back on topic: it's not really all that galling for me personally as a Northerner that we're getting 'hand-me-downs' from the South East. New trains would be lovely but the sums don't lie. We're likely to have battles to keep what we've got (and what we've been promised!) over the next few years, and I think that's more important than moaning about second-hand 319s.

 

[The Ham]

The other problem with new trains is you could end up with the problems that XC have with their Voyagers, in that new trains were brought in at the smae time as timetable changes which meant a better level of service. This then lead to a large frowth in passenger numbers leaving the Voyagers overloaded and over worked. If the chages where brought in first and then the new trains were purchased then longer sets and/or more sets could have been purchased meaning that the prblems would have been lessened.

By getting the 319's when the spark effect happens and there is an increase in passenger numbers then a larger fleet of EMU's can be purchased (i.e. more than the current number of 319's being proposed to head north). Which will then be able to cope with the passenger demnads for the next (say) 20 years rather than the next 5 to 10 if a new set of trains were ordered now.

The 319's may then head somewhere else in CP6 to then repeat the process, maybe Bristol and/or Exeter if there metro services are electrified.

 

[cogload]

I don think anyone has said that. What they have said is in reply to people who have said about the funding for stuff like the Olympics where we did in fact have to pay a higher amount of council tax for - if people cant get their facts correct when discussing it then thats not worth debating.

And I have asked this before but it seems no one has answered it - TfL and our Mayor do a very good job in securing funding from both businesses and also from central govt whilst using their own funds to bring about projects like Crossrail - Why are the PTE's and other transport bodies so inept in raising money in the same way?

Three reasons off the top of my head:
1. There is a stronger and wider tax base in London. The higher and denser population also makes statistical modelling easier when putting forward large capital improvements.
2. The Mayor is elected on a City wide franchise and has clearly defined powers. The PTE's are not/ haven't. This enables a greater clout when dealing with businesses, taxpayers and the treasury. It makes it easier when asking the treasury for devolution of the tax base.
3. Leading on from the above, there is a direct line of accountability, which does not exist in PTE's.

Slowly but surely there is a build up of pressure on central government to devolve tax raising powers down. The City deals are a small first step in this (see Manchester for a good example) and this should be credited to the Coalition government as previous administrations have shown little or no interest in raising local government finance well locally.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 319's may then head somewhere else in CP6 to then repeat the process, maybe Bristol and/or Exeter if there metro services are electrified.

Since CP6 ends in ten years time in 2024, what age and condition do you envisage for the Class 319 fleet at that particular point of time and would you anticipate any vociferous outcry in your stated area of Bristol and/or Exeter at the prospect of receiving such third-hand rolling stock at that time.

 

[The Ham]

Since CP6 ends in ten years time in 2024, what age and condition do you envisage for the Class 319 fleet at that particular point of time and would you anticipate any vociferous outcry in your stated area of Bristol and/or Exeter at the prospect of receiving such third-hand rolling stock at that time.

It very much depends on what state the 319's are at that time, however there will be many who will welcome EMU's, yes there will be those that who will demand new EMU's. Although it would be more clear that such stock was only going to be a short term measure so the outcry may be less.

They could of course end up somewhere else in the North by being internally cascaded within Northern. In which case there could be the same outcry or the same welcoming of EMU's.

 

[ianhr]

Does anyone know when the first 319 is expected at Allerton now?

After all this argument I want to be at Lime Street in December to judge passenger reaction for myself when one turns up on a Manchester diagram. The climb to Edge Hill will be sweet compared with the roaring, gurgling, spluttering and disgusting fumes of a DMU.

 

[Class83]

Does anyone know when the first 319 is expected at Allerton now?

After all this argument I want to be at Lime Street in December to judge passenger reaction for myself when one turns up on a Manchester diagram. The climb to Edge Hill will be sweet compared with the roaring, gurgling, spluttering and disgusting fumes of a DMU.

I suspect the answer will be

+ve: bigger, faster, quieter
-ve: bit scruffy, old

 

[northwichcat]

The 'Sparks effect' though meant that by the time the 333s came along the extra capacity was definitely needed, especially in the peaks.

The 333s were ordered as 3 car trains and later lengthened to 4 cars. So if anything the 'sparks effect' in this instance is the effect of brand new 333s replacing old 308s that attracted more passengers not the electrification work.

It'll be interesting to see if there's any growth on Manchester Airport-Blackpool services if 319s replace 185s.