Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Piccadilly platform 0 is where the HS2 station is planned to be, so I think that idea has been parked since HS2 was though of.

This is what I thought, until it may be used as a short-term stopgap platform until the HS2 project comes to fruition.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can see how P0 for Piccadilly might seem like a 'quick win', and be relatively cheap, however given that Airport services from North TPE will no longer ned to reverse in the main trainshed is there really a need for yet another terminal platform?

P0, on the assumption that it is to the East of P1, would only really be suitable for services via Ardwick- so only really the Glossop line and some Sheffield services. Anything else would simply replace all the conflicting moves that the Ordsall Chord is supposed to eliminate.

South TPE services (to the Airport) AFAIK will still reverse at Piccadilly, so they would be a candidate for P0 (or P1/2 freed by stoppers moving to 0) but with the North TPE services (4tph altogether during the day) no longer reversing; and presumably post HS2 there won't be demand for 3tph from Manchester to Euston via the classic WCML. I'm not convinced, in the medium-to-long term, that extra terminal platforms at Manchester Piccadilly are needed.

 

[northwichcat]

I can see how P0 for Piccadilly might seem like a 'quick win', and be relatively cheap, however given that Airport services from North TPE will no longer ned to reverse in the main trainshed is there really a need for yet another terminal platform?

The paths freed up by North TPE services no longer reversing en route will be utilised by new services, which could include additional services on one or more of the Hope Valley, Buxton and Mid-Cheshire lines. They'll also is set to be 2tph between Piccadilly and Selby/Hull (semi-fast) and post-North TPE electrification there's supposed to be provision for a Piccadilly-Huddersfield stopper as well the semi-fasts if there's sufficient demand to introduce one.

 

[WatcherZero]

I must admit hearing not even the slightest rumbling of a Piccadilly platform 0, indeed the worry has been more that once the two extra through platforms are built there will be an overcapacity in the main shed.

 

[northwichcat]

I must admit hearing not even the slightest rumbling of a Piccadilly platform 0, indeed the worry has been more that once the two extra through platforms are built there will be an overcapacity in the main shed.

There was a proposal for one but maybe it's been quietly dropped. Certainly it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan

 

[Chris125]

Presumably the tram-train proposals could free up some platform capacity at Piccadilly too, further removing the need for a platform 0.

Chris

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I be so bold as to enquire upon this thread as to what is current industry view of the remaining life-expectancy period of these Class 319 units that are scheduled to be sent to Northern Rail.

 

[Starmill]

This thread is the first I've ever heard about a Platform 0 at Manchester Piccadilly. I was well aware we were losing some services from the terminal platforms, and then gaining slightly more than we lost (supposedly and hopefully, re jcollins comments on extra services Hudds stopper/Hope Valley etc) - but aren't there more platforms than strictly needed there already anyway?

 

[edwin_m]

Piccadilly trainshed would be under pressure if train lengths increased, as it would then become impossible to park certain pairs of trains in the same platform.

Platform 0 was under active consideration five or more years ago but I think the Hub actually killed the idea well before HS2 was proposed.

 

[northwichcat]

May I be so bold as to enquire upon this thread as to what is current industry view of the remaining life-expectancy period of these Class 319 units that are scheduled to be sent to Northern Rail.

EMUs have a 35-40 year shelf life. As the 319s were built between 1987 and 1990 then 2022 is the earliest they would be start to be withdrawn with 2030 being around the latest they should still be in service. Although, if they get the full refurbishment Porterbrook are proposing I'd imagine they'd remain in service for at least 10 years after the refurbishment.

 

[swt_passenger]

EMUs have a 35-40 year shelf life. As the 319s were built between 1987 and 1990 then 2022 is the earliest they would be start to be withdrawn with 2030 being around the latest they should still be in service. Although, if they get the full refurbishment Porterbrook are proposing I'd imagine they'd remain in service for at least 10 years after the refurbishment.

If someone is prepared to find a home for them for 15+ years there's always the option of re-tractioning to modern standards as well. The longer they are guaranteed stay in one place then the justification for a better quality interior refurbishment improves too...

 

[northwichcat]

If someone is prepared to find a home for them for 15+ years there's always the option of re-tractioning to modern standards as well. The longer they are guaranteed stay in one place then the justification for a better quality interior refurbishment improves too...

Regarding that:

For some time Porterbrook has been developing proposals for fitting new ac traction to the fleet. Only a few years ago the cost of this was prohibitive, however recently these costs have reduced while the benefits have improved due to rising energy prices.

This option would remove the existing traction equipment, including the motors, and replace it with a modern 3-phase traction package from a well known supplier. This has the following benefits: -
• Enables regenerative braking;
• Improves reliability (less moving parts);
• Improves availability (less repairs and examinations, remote diagnostics);
• Reduces maintenance costs -
• ac motors require less maintenance;
• Brake pad use cut by 50%;
• Less moving parts;
• Wheel life improves with better slip control;

Regenerative braking is the dominant factor in the business case for new traction as simulations show it will return over 20% of traction electricity on inner suburban working or around 10% on Inter – City.

New traction has the potential to improve performance; however the proposal avoids bogie modifications by retaining the existing four-motor configuration.
Increased installed power can be provided by using load weighing technology in the drive system. The existing traction system operates on an average adhesion level based on a tare loading, however the new traction can
detect increased load and use this to transmit more power since the adhesive weight is increased. The configuration of the units with all the power equipment on one vehicle is the best arrangement for power transmission.

The preferred option uses axle-selective technology which provides much better slip control, better reliability and allows regenerative braking to be used in low adhesion conditions. Wheel – rail adhesion is further enhanced by a new WSP system which is combined with smart braking technology to concentrate brake effort on the motor vehicle and so maximise regenerative brake benefit. A detailed feasibility study has been carried out which quantified savings and shows this modification merits serious consideration if the units are planned to operate on frequent-stop services beyond 2020.

 

[Class377/5]

EMUs have a 35-40 year shelf life. As the 319s were built between 1987 and 1990 then 2022 is the earliest they would be start to be withdrawn with 2030 being around the latest they should still be in service. Although, if they get the full refurbishment Porterbrook are proposing I'd imagine they'd remain in service for at least 10 years after the refurbishment.

Considering the 313 that are around 11 years older and won't disappear until 2018 and the need more more (cheap) electric units I doubt very much they'd start going quite so quickly.

 

[Emyr]

Considering Porterbrook don't know the difference between less and fewer, I don't trust their judgement.

 

[northwichcat]

Considering the 313 that are around 11 years older and won't disappear until 2018 and the need more more (cheap) electric units I doubt very much they'd start going quite so quickly.

The Merseyrail 508s that were built in 1979 are set to be replaced in 2017 when they'll be 38 years old, while a number of 508s were withdrawn a few years back. It varies between different trains and which operator has them in their latter years.

I'm also not sure why you think a latest withdrawal date of around 2030 (as I said) means I'm suggesting the 319s be withdrawn sooner than the 313s. By saying around 2030 I'm not ruling out them staying in service for a couple of years beyond 2030 by which time the oldest 319s will be 45 years old.

 

[Class377/5]

The Merseyrail 508s that were built in 1979 are set to be replaced in 2017 when they'll be 38 years old, while a number of 508s were withdrawn a few years back. It varies between different trains and which operator has them in their latter years.

I'm also not sure why you think a latest withdrawal date of around 2030 (as I said) means I'm suggesting the 319s be withdrawn sooner than the 313s. By saying around 2030 I'm not ruling out them staying in service for a couple of years beyond 2030 by which time the oldest 319s will be 45 years old.

I never suggested they would be withdrawn before the 319s, think you missunderstand what I wrote, I was reffering to timescales ie amount of years before being withdrawn than actual dates.

My general point was with demand for eletric units and lower prices may see the 319 fleet last longer than it should like the 313 fleet.

Note the 313 fleet on the South Coast is to stay (only GN units are getting replaced) so some will see service beyond 45yrs.

 

[northwichcat]

I never suggested they would be withdrawn before the 319s, think you missunderstand what I wrote, I was reffering to timescales ie amount of years before being withdrawn than actual dates.

I'm completely confused as to what you're trying to say.

Which units are you saying you didn't say would be withdrawn before the 319s?

I suggested the 319s won't be withdrawn before 2022 (when the oldest ones become 35) but should be withdrawn before around 2030 - not an exact date so could be 2032, for instance.

Note the 313 fleet on the South Coast is to stay (only GN units are getting replaced) so some will see service beyond 45yrs.

Southern have over-ordered new EMUs to allow for the Thameslink delays so could the 377/5s not replace 313s when they are eventually freed up?

 

[158722]

Southern have over-ordered new EMUs to allow for the Thameslink delays so could the 377/5s not replace 313s when they are eventually freed up?

Isn't that over-ordering compensated by the transfer of 25x 377s (presumed 377/1s) from Southern to South Eastern? I'd assumed, like you, that the extra capacity would be used to displace the 313s/442s.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm completely confused as to what you're trying to say.

Which units are you saying you didn't say would be withdrawn before the 319s?

I suggested the 319s won't be withdrawn before 2022 (when the oldest ones become 35) but should be withdrawn before around 2030 - not an exact date so could be 2032, for instance.

Basically I was question your suggestion that the 319s would be withdrawn after 40yrs when the 313s are expected to last closer to 50yrs especially if given a decent refurbishment.

Southern have over-ordered new EMUs to allow for the Thameslink delays so could the 377/5s not replace 313s when they are eventually freed up?

I'm told 313s are staying on Coastway. 377/5 are allocated to additional Milton Keynes capacity and they don't make up for the 25 transferring out of the franchise to SE. I expected the 313s on Coastway to be gone but seems not. Also wondering how 27 units replacing 24x 442 units when there is a lot more milage of the services out to Brighton. Is just an additonal three units enough or is the higher reliability going to cover the additonal requirements?

 

[northwichcat]

I wasn't aware about the 377/1s going to Southeastern.

The 313s would still need to be in service beyond 2021 for them to be closer to 50 years old than 40. They'll be a lot of EMU cascades before then so I suppose Govia could get some cascaded stock from elsewhere to replace the 313s.

 

[Minstral25]

The 455's could get cascaded from within in 2021 to replace the 313's on the south coast - although they are on 5/6 years younger

 

[8J]

Did the move on June 1st go ahead?

 

[Fincra5]

There are no mention of 313s leaving the coastway. Given the refurb they had, i'd expect them to stay for a while yet!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are no mention of 313s leaving the coastway. Given the refurb they had, i'd expect them to stay for a while yet!

It's the 319s we want!

 

[Geeves]

Well the 08 has at least arrived at Allerton according to the latests work news email thing, the fact it has nothing to move yet... Well hey ho!

Is it the end of June now for the first 319?

 

[Fincra5]

Might have to wait until Thameslink 2000 is finished

 

[po8crg]

Is there a proposal to electrify Manchester to Wigan via Atherton? I know the via Bolton route is being done eventually, but if NR does the via Atherton route, then there might be a case for retaining some 319 shoe gear - add some knitting from Kirby to Wigan and you can run a through train Manchester-Hunts Cross (the old Exchange-Exchange route). I believe that the link tunnel (unlike the loop tunnel) has adequate clearances.

 

[ianhr]

Is there a proposal to electrify Manchester to Wigan via Atherton? I know the via Bolton route is being done eventually, but if NR does the via Atherton route, then there might be a case for retaining some 319 shoe gear - add some knitting from Kirby to Wigan and you can run a through train Manchester-Hunts Cross (the old Exchange-Exchange route). I believe that the link tunnel (unlike the loop tunnel) has adequate clearances.

I think it would originally have been Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange as it was the L&YR route. Manchester Exchange was LNWR and it's Liverpool trains went to Lime Street.

 

[northwichcat]

Is there a proposal to electrify Manchester to Wigan via Atherton? I know the via Bolton route is being done eventually, but if NR does the via Atherton route, then there might be a case for retaining some 319 shoe gear - add some knitting from Kirby to Wigan and you can run a through train Manchester-Hunts Cross (the old Exchange-Exchange route). I believe that the link tunnel (unlike the loop tunnel) has adequate clearances.

No proposals to electrify Atherton, Wigan-Kirkby or Wigan-Southport. Wigan-Kirkby is set to become a self-contained shuttle service.

 

[user15681]

Mid June (possibly 19th) is the new estimate for 319361's movement North, according to Tony Miles. Northern's MD say 319361 is leased to them now, but they're sub-leasing it back to FCC.