Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[swt_passenger]

As an aside, does anyone know if Southern will be keeping the existing livery and branding? Or switching to a green variant of the Great Northern/Thameslink one? (I quite like existing 'retro' logo.)

On the day the combined franchise winner was announced, GTR stated quite clearly in a briefing note that the existing Southern and Gatwick Express 'customer brands' were being retained when these franchises joined up with Thameslink and Great Northern. Nothing has subsequently changed that to the best of my knowledge. The FCC branded part of the franchise had to be given a new logo to replace that of 'First', but GTR have decided to separate Thameslink and Great Northern for fairly logical reasons.

London Travelwatch have retained the relevant publication here, page 2 and 3 are relevant:

• ‘Thameslink’ identity restored for services running through central core; ‘Great Northern’ for Kings Cross/Moorgate services
• Southern and Gatwick Express brands retained when they join the franchise in July 2015

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=3865&age=&field=file

 

[RobShipway]

319 362 in Northern Train livery (minus branding) working Allerton / Crewe driver trainer this morning. http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2015/January-2015/i-v4ttbtL/A

Mark
http://mark5812.smugmug.com

Nice photo, thank you for sharing.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

New branding - "Northern Electrics".

 

[Techniquest]

Looks well swish, although it would be funny if it had in brackets underneath "(eventually)"!

 

[Gareth]

Merseyrail Electrics should sue.

Looking good though.

 

[Camden]

Interesting differentiation between "normal" Northern with, as has been pointed out, a very Merseyrail use of electrics there. I saw this being talked about a while back http://www.dg8design.com/319.html so I do wonder whether this use of "electrics" might be a way of marking out these lines as different ready for a future separation?

I've used Northern rail services around and about on my visits, and electric trains are not new to Northern yet they don't (as far as I know) carry this sort of branding on the 321-333's.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting differentiation between "normal" Northern with, as has been pointed out, a very Merseyrail use of electrics there. I saw this being talked about a while back http://www.dg8design.com/319.html so I do wonder whether this use of "electrics" might be a way of marking out these lines as different ready for a future separation?

I've used Northern rail services around and about on my visits, and electric trains are not new to Northern yet they don't (as far as I know) carry this sort of branding on the 321-333's.

More likely just that some marketing bod thought it was a good idea. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More likely just that some marketing bod thought it was a good idea. I wouldn't read too much into it.

We'll know if it has some wider significance if it gets applied to the 323s as well.
There's always the possibility in the future that they might interwork with the 319s over the same routes.

 

[Fincra5]

New branding - "Northern Electrics".

I like that

 

[hairyhandedfool]

We'll know if it has some wider significance if it gets applied to the 323s as well.
There's always the possibility in the future that they might interwork with the 319s over the same routes.

According to the Northern MD, and I think I have to take his word for this, the livery and branding on the 319s is specifically for the 319s and is NOT destined to be applied to any other unit classes.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I like that

Me too. It has a nice ring to it.

If successful, it could be a promising start for further electrification schemes in the north beyond those currently being carried out.

 

[northwichcat]

If successful, it could be a promising start for further electrification schemes in the north beyond those currently being carried out.

I think for the passengers of other lines to want their line to see the same treatment they really need to introduce frequency enhancements or improved connectivity.

I'm sure passengers using the Ormskirk-Preston service would love to get a half-hourly to Liverpool but I'm not sure they'd be excited about the prospect of the existing Ormskirk-Preston service being operated by a 319.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think for the passengers of other lines to want their line to see the same treatment they really need to introduce frequency enhancements or improved connectivity.

I'm sure passengers using the Ormskirk-Preston service would love to get a half-hourly to Liverpool but I'm not sure they'd be excited about the prospect of the existing Ormskirk-Preston service being operated by a 319.

Whyever not? If those lines were electrified then we might actually start seeing direct services through Ormskirk and Kirkby, with 319s switching from overheard to 3rd rail at both stations. It's an absolute joke that passengers have to change at either of them at all.

However, the point I'm making is that Northern Electrics as a brand could prove popular with passengers, encouraging its roll-out on more lines due to the growth they'd see.

 

[northwichcat]

Whyever not?

I said

"I'm sure passengers using the Ormskirk-Preston service would love to get a half-hourly to Liverpool but I'm not sure they'd be excited about the prospect of the existing Ormskirk-Preston service being operated by a 319."

So are you saying passengers would be excited by having a 319 running a Ormskirk-Preston shuttle or that they wouldn't be excited by the prospect of having a Liverpool-Ormskirk-Preston service?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, the point I'm making is that Northern Electrics as a brand could prove popular with passengers, encouraging its roll-out on more lines due to the growth they'd see.

I can't see why it would be popular unless other enhancements are made. There are no proposals for Merseyrail style frequencies on the newly electrified lines.

I also think anyone expecting huge growth as a result of electrification will be very disappointed. In the past routes with potential for huge growth have been chosen for electrification projects. This time Northern and TPE routes which have already seen exponential growth over recent years are being electrified. That level of growth can't possibly continue post-electrification unless we see huge growth in population.

 

[RobShipway]

Whyever not? If those lines were electrified then we might actually start seeing direct services through Ormskirk and Kirkby, with 319s switching from overheard to 3rd rail at both stations. It's an absolute joke that passengers have to change at either of them at all.

However, the point I'm making is that Northern Electrics as a brand could prove popular with passengers, encouraging its roll-out on more lines due to the growth they'd see.

I am with you on the switching from 3rd rail to overhead services and have often questioned why it could not be done within the Merseyside/North West area and just been told that it is not feasible, due to the size of the tunnels etc.... within the Mersey rail network. Somehow, I cannot see that being a problem with the class 319s, if the refurbishment is done which on the first few looks to be the case.

 

[samj]

So I guess these units will not be in traffic anytime soon then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure passengers using the Ormskirk-Preston service would love to get a half-hourly to Liverpool but I'm not sure they'd be excited about the prospect of the existing Ormskirk-Preston service being operated by a 319.

Whyever not? You really don't like 319s, do you?

They are basically a 4-car electric Class 150/2, the use of which is not completely unknown on the line, and are comparable with the Merseyrail units with which they connect.

I'd rather have a 319 than a cramped, unreliable 153. Sure 153s have 2+2 seating but the pitch is inhuman.

And before you mention the South getting everything, LM are also getting some 319s. I have no particular problem with this, they are suited perfectly well to WCML local services.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whyever not? If those lines were electrified then we might actually start seeing direct services through Ormskirk and Kirkby, with 319s switching from overheard to 3rd rail at both stations. It's an absolute joke that passengers have to change at either of them at all.

ISTR that 20m Mk3-based EMUs don't fit in the Merseyrail tunnels, so this without infrastructure work is not on the agenda.

313s would fit, but it's most likely to be new stock that ends up doing this.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are you saying passengers would be excited by having a 319 running a Ormskirk-Preston shuttle or that they wouldn't be excited by the prospect of having a Liverpool-Ormskirk-Preston service?

I think they would be completely neutral to the idea of a 319 substituting for the 153, or maybe happy because the massive extra capacity would increase the chance of not having to sit next to someone.

I think they would like a through service, though as noted in my other post I don't believe this could be operated using 319s as they won't fit the Merseyrail tunnels.

I also think anyone expecting huge growth as a result of electrification will be very disappointed. In the past routes with potential for huge growth have been chosen for electrification projects. This time Northern and TPE routes which have already seen exponential growth over recent years are being electrified. That level of growth can't possibly continue post-electrification unless we see huge growth in population.

I don't know, have you seen the motorways of the North West in the rush hour?

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

I'd rather have a 319 than a cramped, unreliable 153. Sure 153s have 2+2 seating but the pitch is inhuman.

Since the cascade of 150 arrived from LM most Preston-Ormskirk trains have been booked for 2 car DMUs, with the 153 that was previously used been cascaded across to the Clitheroe line.

They are basically a 4-car electric Class 150/2

Exactly why would using a 319 increase alone increase patronage over running a 4 car Sprinter formation? It wouldn't. The public don't share the view of some enthusiasts that electric trains are paradise on wheels.

 

[transmanche]

New branding - "Northern Electrics".

Makes me think of:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since the cascade of 150 arrived from LM most Preston-Ormskirk trains have been booked for 2 car DMUs, with the 153 that was previously used been cascaded across to the Clitheroe line.

2-car what? 150s? A Class 150/2 is effectively identical to a Class 319 except for the absence of the almighty racket coming from underneath.

Exactly why would using a 319 increase alone increase patronage over running a 4 car Sprinter formation? It wouldn't. The public don't share the view of some enthusiasts that electric trains are paradise on wheels.

No, but I think they do recognise that engine noise on 2nd gen DMUs is quite unpleasant.

Neil

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Debating 150 vs 319 on a route not on anybody's electrification short list?
I think there are more urgent matters.
A 4-car EMU beats a 2-car DMU any day of the week on any of Northern's routes.
The fine tuning can come later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Debating 150 vs 319 on a route not on anybody's electrification short list?
I think there are more urgent matters.
A 4-car EMU beats a 2-car DMU any day of the week on any of Northern's routes.
The fine tuning can come later.

Exactly. This is why the 319s are very much a good thing.

Neil

 

[Fincra5]

Me too. It has a nice ring to it.

If successful, it could be a promising start for further electrification schemes in the north beyond those currently being carried out.

Does remind me of the old Southern ones, Southern Electric

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/23/article-0-1D48E88800000578-900_964x654.jpg

 

[martynbristow]

Anyway what is wrong with a 319 (if its reliable ... yet to be proven up here)

It'll be warm vs a windy platform
It'll get you there fairly quickly vs walking or the bus
It has a good number of seats

We'd all love a brand new Desiro City to swoon over but the 319's will do just fine ta.
I'd rather have a 319 than pay through the eyes for new stock.

And anyway if we'd have purchased new stock it would have done now good, the 319s are hardly going to be running in the north before they need replacement.

Maybe we should send them to Merseyrail to boast the sometime lack capacity, i assume they'd still work in 3rd rail mode

 

[Whistler40145]

The future may bring new or newer stock, but at present, Class 319s are more than adequate.

 

[158756]

I think they would be completely neutral to the idea of a 319 substituting for the 153, or maybe happy because the massive extra capacity would increase the chance of not having to sit next to someone.

I think they would like a through service, though as noted in my other post I don't believe this could be operated using 319s as they won't fit the Merseyrail tunnels.

I think the point was that electrification is not a massive improvement compared to making the service quicker/more frequent/go somewhere useful.
I have no doubt that locals would like a through service through Ormskirk, and in comparison simply electrifying the shuttle is a tiny improvement. If rolling stock had been managed better greater capacity than a 153 should be well within the capabilities of a diesel train.

Electrifying everything and expecting huge growth simply through that without addressing other issues with the service is unrealistic.

I don't know, have you seen the motorways of the North West in the rush hour?

Neil

What incentive to use the train does an EMU offer that the current trains don't?
If agree that Northern could get plenty of new customers if they go for a big marketing campaign on better, faster, longer, modern(because it uses electricity) trains, but if they don't, or the passengers don't think the trains are so good, or indeed, the price of petrol is low, they might not see any increase at all, or even a decrease with petrol cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What incentive to use the train does an EMU offer that the current trains don't?

More capacity. If you can get a seat, the train is *much* more attractive.

Yes, that could be achieved using DMUs, but there aren't any.

Also, the lack of an underfloor engine makes them a bit more pleasant, but I doubt that is a deal maker (or breaker).

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe we should send them to Merseyrail to boast the sometime lack capacity, i assume they'd still work in 3rd rail mode

Mk3-based 20m EMUs don't fit the Merseyrail tunnels, AIUI.

This:
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/cd_455_03.jpg

shows how much lower the PEP body is.

Neil

 

[158756]

More capacity. If you can get a seat, the train is *much* more attractive.

Yes, that could be achieved using DMUs, but there aren't any.

Also, the lack of an underfloor engine makes them a bit more pleasant, but I doubt that is a deal maker (or breaker).

Neil

To achieve growth though you need to attract people who don't currently use the train. Unless they've tried before and been put off by overcrowding, they won't have a clue how likely they are to get a seat. Unless there's an obvious improvement in the timetable, which isn't planned AFAIK, any increase in passenger numbers will be dependent on getting maximum publicity for the 'new' trains. Does the expiring franchise have any requirement to or interest in advertising the new trains?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I remember the days when 319/0's used to work to Rugby in Connex days. I would prefer them any day over a 150/153/Pacer etc...

Why all the fuss !?

 

[RobShipway]

To achieve growth though you need to attract people who don't currently use the train. Unless they've tried before and been put off by overcrowding, they won't have a clue how likely they are to get a seat. Unless there's an obvious improvement in the timetable, which isn't planned AFAIK, any increase in passenger numbers will be dependent on getting maximum publicity for the 'new' trains. Does the expiring franchise have any requirement to or interest in advertising the new trains?

I think you are correct about needing an incentive to get car drivers on to trains.

One thing I miss since privatisation are days like Network South east used to do which is go anywhere on the Network South East network for a £5. I do not see any of the private railway companies doing that and I think that sort of think would be good with introducing the Class 319s to the Northern network.

However, I cannot see it being done as I think Northern would loose money doing it.