I think the 319 front looks ok. I can certainly think of a few MUs that look worse. I do think though they did look a lot better when Connex painted the top half of the fronts charcoal grey.
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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification
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I think the 319 front looks ok. I can certainly think of a few MUs that look worse. I do think though they did look a lot better when Connex painted the top half of the fronts charcoal grey.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
When you see the type of modern front ends that are carried by recently introduced units, the one that is carried by the Class 319 units does seem to hark back to a time when a different aesthetic was in vogue and that front end carried by them unfortunately reinforces the views of many people that these are indeed dated units from a past age.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Personally I like the 319 cab front. It is uncluttered and affords a clear view.
Why not use the Selhurst-allocated ones on the East/West Coastway?. At least they would be a welcome upgrade from the 313's in that they are 4-car and have toilets. And it would be no different exchanging units between the Sussex coast and Selhurst depot as is done with the 171's.
Why not use the Selhurst-allocated ones on the East/West Coastway?. At least they would be a welcome upgrade from the 313's in that they are 4-car and have toilets. And it would be no different exchanging units between the Sussex coast and Selhurst depot as is done with the 171's.
Good idea but the franchise agreement I believe means that the 319's will almost certainly be all cascaded to other franchises
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Class377/5
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There hasn't been a Selhurst allocated 319 in 5 years.
Structurally, without a doubt. There's some suspension in a 319. But the interior of some of the West Yorkshire 144s is remarkably well kept, whereas the interiors of some 319s are shocking. Bench seats or ex-Merseytravel though and they are flipping vile.
I think we both know the answer to that; quite low and very inelastic respectively! But of under-utilisation and low investment, which is the cause and which the solution?
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
whereas the interiors of some 319s are shocking. Bench seats or ex-Merseytravel though and they are flipping vile.
You sure your referring to 319's. ? I use them every day - and as mentioned before they are in quite decent condition. The whole fleet has had a lot of heavy cleaning attention , including shampooing the seat covers and steam cleaning the floors. A bit of window etching but there is a campaign to replace damaged skins.
As for the debate on the aesthetics of a 319 front end - I do not think this is something that the average Joe from Tulse Hill has an issue with.
You sure your referring to 319's. ? I use them every day - and as mentioned before they are in quite decent condition. The whole fleet has had a lot of heavy cleaning attention , including shampooing the seat covers and steam cleaning the floors. A bit of window etching but there is a campaign to replace damaged skins.
As for the debate on the aesthetics of a 319 front end - I do not think this is something that the average Joe from Tulse Hill has an issue with.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Agreed. As a reasonably frequent user of both, I'd say the interiors of the 319s are on average significantly better than those of Northern's 150s and Pacers.
Personally I think the West Yorks 144s have the most horrible interior design ever devised! The high back seats are incredibly uncomfortable as the seat base is shallow and so the front edges have worn resulting in a forwards slant, with very little leg room for anyone other than small children. The high seat backs create a claustrophobic effect, which when combined with the lurching swaying ride and gurgling spluttering engines, result in an even more unpleasant experience than the units with the original bus seats. I can't wait for them to be scrapped and replaced by 319s or ANYTHING!
Sheepy1209
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One thing that marks Northern out to me is that on many routes almost anything can turn up - Pacer one day, 150 the next, maybe a 156. It just looks like it's thrown together out of trains that were lying around; especially when you get different types of unit coupled together.
Simply having a consistent fleet (notwithstanding a few sub-class differences) will make Northern's service look more professional, and a 319 has to be better than a 150, never mind a 142 (I've got enormous respect for the 150s but they're past their best now).
Northern do incredibly well with what they've got; most of the perceived failings are down to overcrowding and tatty units. The 319s can only help.
Simply having a consistent fleet (notwithstanding a few sub-class differences) will make Northern's service look more professional, and a 319 has to be better than a 150, never mind a 142 (I've got enormous respect for the 150s but they're past their best now).
Northern do incredibly well with what they've got; most of the perceived failings are down to overcrowding and tatty units. The 319s can only help.
Having had my first ride on a 319 (319361) only two months ago and my first ride on a 350 (350409) yesterday, I honestly think that the difference in internal comfort and ride quality at speed is marginal. If all cascaded 319s are no worse than 361, then Northern Rail passengers will not be disappointed with their 14xx/15xx replacements.
Incidentally, Scotrail fares must be more heavily subsidised than Northern fares. I rode from Edinburgh to Stirling and back yesterday on a very nice 158 for £9 return taking an hour each way with 7 intermediate stops. A 38 minute journey each way from Harrogate to Leeds with 6 intermediate stops on a rough Pacer/150 is also £9 return. London so-called higher fare payers take note. Scotrail 158s have a much nicer feel internally than refurbed Northern examples despite both having purple trim. Random purple is kinder on the eye then strong purple stripe.
Incidentally, Scotrail fares must be more heavily subsidised than Northern fares. I rode from Edinburgh to Stirling and back yesterday on a very nice 158 for £9 return taking an hour each way with 7 intermediate stops. A 38 minute journey each way from Harrogate to Leeds with 6 intermediate stops on a rough Pacer/150 is also £9 return. London so-called higher fare payers take note. Scotrail 158s have a much nicer feel internally than refurbed Northern examples despite both having purple trim. Random purple is kinder on the eye then strong purple stripe.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
For certain services Northern are contractually obliged to provide a minimum number of seats, while for others they only have to provide a train, so the ones which have a minimum seating requirement like the Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Liverpool-Wigan services are more likely to have their booked Sprinter than other services.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
They do indeed say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One man's detested Class 142 Pacer front may also be seen to have aesthetic qualities much admired by others, but like the adage about brutalistic architecture and modern art, you either like it or detest it....:roll:
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Well currently on Liverpool-Airport/Wigan services you'd usually get a train with this interior: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72141&d=1359129085 or one with this interior: https://www.northernrail.org/images/news/bettertrains-train-interior3.jpg
I don't think introducing this type of interior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319#mediaviewer/File:319363_TSO_Internal.JPG will result in happy passengers given how unpopular 3+2 seating is these days.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Last week I travelled in a Liverpool 156 which seemed to have brand new seats - complete with pristine seat-back tables with no food/coffee stains!
It even smelt new, like a new car.
Unfortunately, the refurb did not extend to the grubby original carpet...
I've also been on 319 361 on a Thameslink run and it is a good, clean unit.
Better than any 150/142. Jury out on 156 seating comparison.
The 2+2 seating in 156s is good but leg room is poor.
319s are all back-to-back 2+3. They can easily be refitted with 2+2.
319/2 variants are already 2+2 seated while the 319/4 have very few sets of 3+2 seating compared to a 319/3 or 319/0 variant. It is the 319/0 that looks to be the worst, with the more-or-less original 80s/90s interior of unpainted handrails and lower amount of handrails, plus no contrasting flooring at the doorways. The 319/2 has the flooring but not the contrasting handrails. Not to mention the horrible yellow colour that the FCC colours /3 & /4 have got rid of. Although it would also be good to remove the lighting diffusers which made the interior very dark.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Northern haven't fitted any new seats to 156s except possibility replacing complexly broken seats but all their 156s have had new seats at some point since they were built. Northern have re-painted the backs of the seats to make them look fresher and cleaner, as well as adding new seat covers. The ex-FNW 156s with the thinner seat backs do have more leg room than the ex-ATN 156s. Either type can appear on Liverpool services.
So do the 319s have more leg room than the same seating type on the non-refurbished 150s? If not then they don't have much leg room.
Well 319s have facing seating and the legroom is ok, they don't have rows of one directional seating that the 150s have.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I don't suppose the leg room is much different, not when they are full anyway.
I only saw them off-peak and the layout seemed more spacious.
With 4 coaches there is less space wasted in cabs and vestibules.
You don't get the pokey "is that it?" feel of the 150s.
The feel is similar to a 323 (which in the past have worked Birmingham-Liverpool services), but I think the 319s have a better ambience (eg the door mechanism is better/smoother).
LBSCR Times
Member
I travel on 319's most days, and whilst not the most comfortable of units compared to more modern stuff, they are generally ok if you get the choice of where to sit. The seats can be quite low, however, and if you are tall, then you do need to select the right seat.
Standing can be a little claustrophobic in the section where the pan well is.
Luggage space is at a premium, considering they serve two airports, and it isn't unusual for doorways to be blocked by luggage.
Overall, they are not too bad a unit, and will be missed down south by operators, if only for the benefit of clearing ice from the third rail.....!!
Standing can be a little claustrophobic in the section where the pan well is.
Luggage space is at a premium, considering they serve two airports, and it isn't unusual for doorways to be blocked by luggage.
Overall, they are not too bad a unit, and will be missed down south by operators, if only for the benefit of clearing ice from the third rail.....!!
A 156 east of the Pennines is luxury regardless of trim condition. The carpet looks wrong and not co-ordinated.
Have you a picture of a 150 with 3+2 seating or Pacer to show us? 319361 was better than any of those we have in West Yorkshire. I assumed the same for west of the Pennines. In the circumstances West Yorkshire should have had electrification first as we have more inferior DMUs.
Manchester77
Established Member
Class 142 (near original condition, there's 5 of these): http://www.pacerpreservationsociety.co.uk/uploads/1/0/5/2/10525174/6805214_orig.jpg
Class 142 (standard FNW refresh): http://www.pacerpreservationsociety.co.uk/uploads/1/0/5/2/10525174/9599098_orig.jpg
Class 142 (Arriva refurbishement): http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/interior.JPG
(Rare on the west side, the refurbished version is the right hand one)
Class 142 (ex-merseytravel, all refreshed now in the northern moquette): http://www.pacerpreservationsociety.co.uk/uploads/1/0/5/2/10525174/1422587_orig.jpg
Class 150 (ex London Midland): http://www.mattypsrailwaypics.com/uploads/9/3/9/5/9395206/8740696_orig.jpg
(In Central Trains condition, the only difference now it a violet coloured grad handle and the Northern seat moquette)
Class 150 (FNW refurbishment):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rorymacveii/8714309986/in/pool-photostakenintrains
Darren R
Established Member
I can't help notice in this photograph the seat which has dropped to bits on the right - from experience I think this might be a design feature common to the entire Pacer fleet!
Do the 319s require Duct Tape to hold them together in the same way? (It's been a while since I was last on one.)
That was always my go-to standing spot, might as well enjoy some motors if you cant get the seat
northwichcat
Veteran Member
There's also the ex-ATN 150s which have the same type of interior as the ex-LM 150s but are in better condition.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I was under the impression that this item is now an essential part of Class 142 Pacer cab maintenance at Newton Heath....
Many thanks for the photos. Class 150s acceptable, 2xPacers scrapped for one cascaded 319 is a good exchange.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
That won't work.
There's around 6 x 2 car 156 diagrams that'll be switching to 4 car 319 diagrams over the next 18 months. Are you proposing those 2 car 156s can run services currently operated by 4 car 142s?
Also how are you proposing to deal with overcrowding on routes not being electrified?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
A 2x142 train has 204-242 seats depending on configuration; a 319/3 has 300 seats (I believe).
You can see from the Northern franchise consultation document that it will not be a case of doubling capacity all round.
Edit:
To all those who turn their noses up at cascaded class 319s:
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