I dont know where it was plugged into exactly but the controls were located in the vestibule behind the drivers cab and used a Yale type key to operate the panel, which had all your usual buttons, two for opening and one for closing. I dont know where the signal buzzer was to tell the driver you were ready, Driver 9000 would know, yoouu whooo? HA
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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification
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If they can rewire a 180 for Two man crew or turn every single DKS so it faces into the saloon on all the 142, 144s, 150s,155s and 156s in the fleet Im sure they will have no problem messing about with a 319. Its basically the same carriage design as a 150 is it not?
I doubt we will ever see Vic men signing to Hadfield but Im pretty certain the plan is to make the 319s and 323s common user in so much as they can all go to Liverpool, Victoria and Stalybridge if needs be. As the Hadfield is line is run for 323 timings I guess thats how it will stay, well at least till the 387s come
There is no reason a 144, 155 or 158 could not go Liverpool even now as Vic sign the route and the traction, but when its gets there it might be a be working a different service back with a Liverpool or Picc Crew who dont sign said units, hence why they never go.
I assume that the Hadfield line has a few steep slopes near Dinting, but the line overall only rises about 140m in 21Km. I doubt that linespeeds exceed 75 much.
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westcoaster
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hairyhandedfool
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Oh, FCC did a grand job there then.....:roll:
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
60mph is actually the maximum line speed, from Gorton eastwards.
I don't think it was ever any faster.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
319s currently have a top speed of 100mph compared to the 323's top speed of 90mph. However, the later has better acceleration and given Northern's current electric services miss out very few stations how quickly they can get above 75mph is more important than the actual top speed.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
It makes perfect sense if you are FCC. Send away the knackered ones and keep the rest in as good a condition as you can.
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Not FCC's decision , thank you - and the 319/3 are perfectly decent and in general good nick. Can we please stop this eternal "it is so hard up North ,and the South gets the best" - thinking of Mrs Gaskill and George Orwell here - you can find some old and worn out units in t'South .....
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Not FCC's decision , thank you - and the 319/3 are perfectly decent and in general good nick. Can we please stop this eternal "it is so hard up North ,and the South gets the best" - thinking of Mrs Gaskill and George Orwell here - you can find some old and worn out units in t'South .....
westcoaster
Established Member
Well actually they did , it was a good idea to cut down on delay minutes and door relay faults. Where the driver forgot to remove his door key, and another driver put his in at the other. Easily reversible.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Actually if some are in a shabby condition it may make sense to return the ones which aren't too shabby first as if the shabby ones get shabbier then it increases the chance of Porterbrook deciding FCC are not returning the trains in an acceptable condition and charging them for the cost of putting them right.
At least in the South East & London you can look forward to the worst of the worst being replaced - 315s seem to be the most complained about. At the moment there's no plans for withdrawal of the Pacer fleet at Northern, hopefully that changes when the next franchise is let. Although, with Northern getting 2 franchise extensions we've been saying that for a long time now!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Bit hard to count the contours on the OS map but there is a 221m spot height in Diggle village which is several metres above the end of Standedge Tunnel. As this is also the summit, Greenfield station will be a bit lower than this and Greenfield itself even lower as it is in the bottom of the valley. Are you thinking of Wharmton Pike (348m), the hill that Greenfield station is on the slopes of?
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Put it this way - the 319/0 have seat cushions that have long lost their bottom comfort zone - and you have springs on your posterior. The 319/3 are good units for comfort and ambience. So enjoy. ....
The south-east passenger looks forward to a very heavily loaded service that most of the time just avoids complete collapse. The oldest stock (313s/315s/317s/319s etc.) just like the 142s/150s et al elswhere is worked intensively. The main difference is that a single breakdown on a London commuter route can result in thousands of delayed passengers who are then locked in a system with close headway services. That has a bigger impact on the nation's economy than the (say) hundreds caught in equivalent events in the provinces.
I didn't say it would be a problem per se, but it will a) take time and b) cost money, no?
I doubt we will ever see Vic men signing to Hadfield but Im pretty certain the plan is to make the 319s and 323s common user in so much as they can all go to Liverpool, Victoria and Stalybridge if needs be. As the Hadfield is line is run for 323 timings I guess thats how it will stay, well at least till the 387s come
muddythefish
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RichmondCommu
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However tunnels have never been cheap to construct, as the Victorians discovered when they started to build our railway network. The same could be said for under ground networks all over Europe and beyond. The only way to travel across London by train is under ground. I'm curious to know whether you have ever actually visited the capital.
So effectively what you are saying is that the current plans for the Northern Hub are sufficient to improve rail infrastructure in the North (or at least in the North West).
In that case why do you think that the companies that are investing money in the Crossrail project are not interested in rail infrastructure projects in the North? Perhaps it's because they are not in the slightest bit interested in relocating from the South East and the same goes for their employees.
We're talking about international conglomerates that have their European headquarters in London. The UK market is only a small part of the European market. Good luck in telling people that they've lost their jobs because you wish to wreck London's excellent reputation for business. Let's face it; what you are proposing is never going to happen.
So if you're not qualified, why are you entering into a discussion about it? Whilst I would agree that the North deserves better public transport infrastructure, tax breaks to try and encourage businesses to move to the North would never be sustainable and the Government would never entertain the idea. There are plenty of R & D facilities in and around Cambridge so why bother moving them and losing your talent pool? You can build all the business parks that you like but getting people to move to the North will be much, much harder.
London itself did not create the financial crisis of 2007, the banks did. That would have happened no matter where the UK's financial centre happened to be. You have no credible evidence to suggest that London is heading for what you describe as a long term economic meltdown.
I would agree that inflation is very dangerous to an economy. However you can be absolutely certain that the Bank of England would never allow hyper-inflation to develop. Hence the target inflation figures that the Government sets the bank.
The South East is fuller than other regions because that's where people want to live! If utilities were more expensive to deliver in the South East my water bill would be higher than my sisters who lives in Derbyshire. And guess what, it isn't! I concur that land isn't cheap in London, which is why many people choose to commute for an hour once they start to raise families etc. However they are all still happy to work in London.
That could be said for other areas all over the country. I have relatives who live in Dentdale in North Yorkshire. Property in the Northern Dales has become very expensive which makes it much harder for young people, to stay in the Dales. Believe me the problems which you highlight are not exclusive to London.
Who is "we" exactly?
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Please tell me that sentence is tongue in cheek.
No it's a statement of fact.
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Gents, can we get this back on-topic please?
Feel free to discuss these matters elsewhere, thanks.Gents, can we get this back on-topic please?
Thank you. I hope we can simply conclude the discussion with mutual respect on the basis that we have different presiding economic viewpoints and get back to the 319s?
Can I ask a question of any 319 users (esp. 319 drivers) who may be on here? (or east mids drivers following them ) What are they like in the rain? Hopefully a damn sight better at getting moving than a 323. There seems to be a bit of a lovefest on this forum about 323s but they are a pain in the backside if you're following one in the rain, and as for leaf fall season...
) What are they like in the rain? Hopefully a damn sight better at getting moving than a 323. There seems to be a bit of a lovefest on this forum about 323s but they are a pain in the backside if you're following one in the rain, and as for leaf fall season...Can I ask a question of any 319 users (esp. 319 drivers) who may be on here? (or east mids drivers following them
I recall being on one going to Redditch on a rainy night last Autumn... very very very slippery! Probably the most wheelspin I've ever encountered?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I do so hate the use of the term "the provinces." when it is used in such a connection which these days has implications of subserviency to the power-base that is London. The term of the "Home Counties" also has similar connotational airs of being part of England that is far superior to other areas.
Of course, I speak from my rather select rural area of Cheshire East that is somewhat culturally removed from its surrounding areas...
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muddythefish
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In that case it's condescending (and wrong) and explains why much of the rest of the country has so much contempt for London and the south east.
Yours, in the "provinces".
I do so hate the use of the term "the provinces." when it is used in such a connection which these days has implications of subserviency to the power-base that is London. The term of the "Home Counties" also has similar connotational airs of being part of England that is far superior to other areas.
Of course, I speak from my rather select rural area of Cheshire East that is somewhat culturally removed from its surrounding areas...
Indeed, this is a worthy avenue of understanding the strong "North - South" emotions that seem to have overtaken so many threads on here recently; a sense of mutual respect. Different as we may all be none should be subservient or superior to the others.
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westcoaster
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Can I ask a question of any 319 users (esp. 319 drivers) who may be on here? (or east mids drivers following them
319's are not to bad in leaf fall, wsp works well during braking, and notching works best for acceleration. As a rule of thumb notch 2 to 30mph, 3 to 50mph, and 4 thereafter. During braking initial braking in step 2 and brake accodingly thereafter ( the rest of the year if braking from above 80 step 3 is initial braking).
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Pretty sure footed (as observed from the passenger accommodation) - they will slip a bit getting away from Radlett on the southbound with a bad rail , on a slow / semi - fast...(1-67 there due to the river valley) - as previously mentioned they manage 1-29 into Blackfriars and of course the Wimbledon - Sutton "Wall of Death" is part of the day job. (1-40)
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With 16 TPH on a two track approach - with peak loadings of 200% (+) , = 20,000 passengers a hour , a 10 mind delay on a duff unit can rapidly cause aggregate delay mins of over 1000 . before you know it. Many SE TOC's have operated a "cut and run" policy for many years , if you cannot find it in 5 mins or less , it is out of service and empty to depot / sidings.
Not the value of time for an individual passenger is different - but the sheer number of passengers.
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Please tell me that sentence is tongue in cheek.
With 16 TPH on a two track approach - with peak loadings of 200% (+) , = 20,000 passengers a hour , a 10 mind delay on a duff unit can rapidly cause aggregate delay mins of over 1000 . before you know it. Many SE TOC's have operated a "cut and run" policy for many years , if you cannot find it in 5 mins or less , it is out of service and empty to depot / sidings.
Not the value of time for an individual passenger is different - but the sheer number of passengers.
I use the term 'provinces' to represent anything outside the capital and (in transport terms) its hinterland. I've lived in all three areas, (London, its commuting hinterland and coastal Hampshire). I've met a few locals over the years who had anti-London traits, mainly south of the downs who boasted having never been to the city, but have never heard of any sensitivities about words like Provincial/Home Counties etc.. In Hants, our local bus company was even called 'Provincial'. Its poor service took a lot of verbal abuse from users, but I never encountered any resentment of its name from even the most insular of the locals. What's in a name anyway?
Sorry for the OT reply, back to the 319 subject. As ChiefPlanner confirms, my statement was about the effect of breakdowns, in the smoke's commuterland, any equipment failure rapidly becomes a serious breakdown of service with thousands of passengers trapped in the transport system. All routes are operating at full capacity, and the expense of rail chaos which then spills across to roads makes the costs of securing a reliable rolling stock fleet a necessity.
Apart from a few commuting cliques from the leafy 'home counties', (e.g. I've heard comments here about the Alton line lot), most passengers regard a reliable passage through their commute much more important than the thickness of padding on seats that they may not even get the chance to sit on. Back to my original comment in post #142 with typo corrected,
"The 319s however will have the advantage of being available in large numbers in the future so some of the newly electrified lines will surely be taking them, particularly if a future WM operator is successful in adding them to their fleet of 323s."
For stock that has been grinding away for over 25 years, the 319 with its MKIII design and the first major AC/DC design implementation, the ride, speed and reliability is pretty good, and infinitely better than the 142's, 150's etc. that it will be replacing in the newly electrified areas away from the smoke. As a passenger* in Hampshire, I didn't complain when the thumpers running between Portsmouth and Soton were replaced by 20+ year old 423s etc. so I would regard 319s as a big upgrade from pacers and old sprinters.
* i.e one who regarded train travel as a means of getting somewhere rather than an enthusiast pastime
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I just Googled height of Greenfield above sea level and that was the figure it gave me.
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Well I think you're underestimating how many people use trains in the North. A broken down Northern stopping service at peak time can easily affect over 1000 people if the break down happens to be a service like the Victoria-Huddersfield stopper and prevents North TPE services from running.
Ignoring LO, TPE did have the highest seat occupancy rate of all the TOCs and it was 22% higher than the London and South East average, although that stat pre-dates the May 2014 timetable change when TPE introduced extra capacity.
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muddythefish
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Thee point is, all areas of the country should be treated equally when they clearly are not. A report published this week which showed transport spend per head in London at something like £1,500 compared to £5 (yes, really) in the north east.
At least there are some improvements taking place in Lancashire and Yorkshire but it will take many years and £x billions to get the whole system fit for purpose and anything like that enjoyed by people in the south east.
Anyway, back to the 319s.
Minstral25
Established Member
A major difference in the "Regions" is that there are alternatives to public transport that mostly work well. In London the Roads are so overcrowded that a commute by car unless you are very rich is a complete nightmare. Hence the dependence on trains is greater. I'm pretty sure someone will point out pinch points in the "Regions".
The lack of investment is across the board. There is a need for new stock to be purchased both for the Regions and still for London. The several billion of new stock announced is just not enough for everywhere.
The lack of investment is across the board. There is a need for new stock to be purchased both for the Regions and still for London. The several billion of new stock announced is just not enough for everywhere.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I've just done that too, and if you open the link rather than just reading Google's summary you will find that is actually the altitude of the Pots and Pans. This is near the war memorial you see from the train at the edge of the moors, and having walked there many times as a child, I can vouch for it being a long way above Greenfield!
Still wanting to get back to 319s but:
The IPPR (North) report sensationalises the difference in capital spend between the regions and London for its own purposes and the media (including the BBC) were happy to headline the shock news. A closer analysis by the Treasury Scrutiny unit (That's a new one on me!) takes the IPPR's figure apart and expresses a view on it's conclusions.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/transport/Scrutiny%20Unit%20Note%20-%20regional%20transport%20spending%20_2_.pdf
As I read it, Figure 3 in the document shows that the Central Government spend on capital projects for London is similar to all the other regions (and indeed less than the east and almost equal to Yorkshire and Humber region).
What is different is the local authority and public corporations spend which is about four times the average regional spend. Now if the criticism is that its unfair for London to use some of its very high council tax, business rate and large corporation's cash to provide key transport infrastructure, it sounds like sour grapes to me.
The other issue is that the report(s) derive a figure for per capita. In London, public transport is used by a much higher proportion of the population than in all other regions. As Minstral25 mentions in the last post there isn't much choice except for the very rich (and contrary to the belief of some, not everybody in London is rich) so the dominant mode of transport must work as well as possible. The reports would produce a different picture if the cost including running cost subsidies per capita, or even cost per passenger mile were calculated. I wouldn't expect IPPR (North) to be involved in that one.
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