Northern Rail Weekend Rover - must purchase before boarding?

[185143]

That is exactly the point I have been thinking about.

The guard did the right thing - offered to carry the passengers as far as the next open ticket office at Hazel Grove, and when that was declined sold them a ticket appropriate to the journey they were making.

The question is what happened at the ticket office in Sheffield? Did they attempt to exchange the ticket under Condition 3? If they attempted and it was declined, then they are due a refund.

The guard did later come back and mention that we could possibly get a refund on the SPT-SHF ticket at Sheffield. At the ticket office at Sheffield, we explained the situation and were told that, after speaking to a colleague, they could happily sell the rover, but we would have to go through Northern for the refund of the Stockport-Sheffield ticket.

If alighting at Hazel Grove had been reasonably practical, we would have been more than happy to do so. Taking a four hour delay is by no means reasonable! This was also the only train from Hazel Grove to Sheffield too.

 

[yorkie]

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

Surely, this exactly explains the situation here? The ticket can only be bought from a ticket office, and the ticket office was closed. Therefore, the OP's friends should have bought a single to Sheffield and then bought the ticket they wanted from there. The guard did the right thing in the situation (I often take the side of the passenger too).

However, I certainly think that condition 3 applies. If it is a ticket that can be bought at a ticket office, then surely it is part of the 'full range' of tickets that is spoken of in condition 3?

Northern have told many people that they do not apply Condition 3 and do not want people buying part fare tickets.

And good luck getting a part-fare exchange at Sheffield. The chances of being asked to pay the difference only are around about nil.

Condition 3 is not enforced by many TOCs, and those TOCs who do enforce it are not always able to keep to their side of the deal. It's not fit for purpose!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The guard did the right thing - offered to carry the passengers as far as the next open ticket office at Hazel Grove, and when that was declined sold them a ticket appropriate to the journey they were making..

This is not correct.

 

[najaB]

This is not correct.

Given that the guard could not sell the the Weekend Rover, what other option did she have?

 

[yorkie]

Given that the guard could not sell the the Weekend Rover, what other option did she have?

Look at it from a more sensible angle: are you saying passengers should bring more money than the cost of their fare so that they can purchase a part fare ticket on top of the correct ticket? If so, please tell me where does it say this in the NRCoC, and how much additional money should customers bring with them? And if you're not saying that, then you know the answer to your question!

 

[najaB]

Look at it from a more sensible angle: are you saying passengers should bring more money than the cost of their fare so that they can purchase a part fare ticket on top of the correct ticket?

No. As unfashionable as it is, I'm saying that people should be a bit more responsible and organised - if they want to purchase a special offer ticket that is advertised as only being available from a ticket office, then arrange to get to the ticket office and buy the ticket rather than boarding the train without a ticket and expecting the guard to sort it all out. Simple really.

You'll note, however, that I have said that Northern really should refund the cost of the return ticket they bought as they should have been able to exchange it at the Sheffield ticket office under Condition 3.

 

[Karl]

I think the OP's friends have been very unfairly treated. I've been very fortunate as having now used 3 different Northern Day Rovers the guards have always been understanding and allowed me to purchase my ticket at Preston after starting my day at Bamber Bridge.

I just make sure that my form is signed, dated and 'Bamber Bridge' filled in as my departure station. Before boarding the train I always make sure I show the guard the completed form with tokens attached and politely ask if I'm okay to purchase my ticket at Preston. To be doubly sure I also have my £10 note paper clipped to the form. Gratefully I've always been let on without having to pay the £3.00 for a single to Preston.

The tricky part though is convincing the RPIs on the footbridge at Preston before purchasing my ticket at Preston's ticket office. On all 3 occasions I've been stopped as I approach them with my form already visible to them. After explaining the completed form to them they've always let me through to join the ticket office queue.

I hope the OP's friends are able to resolve their situation as the cost of their Northern Rail trip between Stockport and Sheffield defeats the purpose of a Rover ticket if that journey is covered the same day as a pre-filled form with tokens and departure station?

I still have 4 more sets of tokens to use up before the current offer ends and am grateful that my local guards have always been understanding. I always thank them too.

Good luck OP.

 

[najaB]

I think the OP's friends have been very unfairly treated. I've been very fortunate as having now used 3 different Northern Day Rovers the guards have always been understanding and allowed me to purchase my ticket at Preston after starting my day at Bamber Bridge.

Bamber Bridge is an unstaffed station, is it not? And Preston is the next staffed station on the route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Look at it from a more sensible angle: are you saying passengers should bring more money than the cost of their fare so that they can purchase a part fare ticket on top of the correct ticket? If so, please tell me where does it say this in the NRCoC, and how much additional money should customers bring with them? And if you're not saying that, then you know the answer to your question!

London Midland's "Great Escape" is similar - it MUST be purchased from a ticket office. It is made clear that you MUST arrange to visit a ticket office before travel with your online printed voucher before you travel. If you don't do that, you don't get the exceptional special offer. I'm not sure how that differs from an online special offer also not available on the train.

Provided this is made clear in the publicity, which for London Midland it is, I don't see why there is an issue with this.

You can't buy Railcards on the train either, nor did you used to be able to buy annual season tickets (though maybe you now can, I don't know). It doesn't seem to me to be different to either of those cases.

 

[Anvil1984]

London Midland's "Great Escape" is similar - it MUST be purchased from a ticket office. It is made clear that you MUST arrange to visit a ticket office before travel with your online printed voucher before you travel. If you don't do that, you don't get the exceptional special offer. I'm not sure how that differs from an online special offer also not available on the train.

Provided this is made clear in the publicity, which for London Midland it is, I don't see why there is an issue with this.

You can't buy Railcards on the train either, nor did you used to be able to buy annual season tickets (though maybe you now can, I don't know). It doesn't seem to me to be different to either of those cases.

And I believe East Midlands Red Dot day where the tickets were only available from one booking office where was the clamour for section 3 to be applied them.

Again I just see this as certain members just having the knives out for Northern again. Northern made the terms very clear, the OPs friends didn't read / disregarded them or didn't do their homework.The NRCoC allows extra terms to be placed on these tickets so long as they are advertised beforehand. And in the event of well why wasn't the ticket office open earlier in the first place that would be Vkrgins fault not Northern

 

[Karl]

Bamber Bridge is an unstaffed station, is it not? And Preston is the next staffed station on the route?

Yes you're correct. Perhaps my situation was a bad comparison? I just wanted to add my positive experience.

 

[najaB]

Yes you're correct. Perhaps my situation was a bad comparison? I just wanted to add my positive experience.

I don't doubt your experience has been positive and I hope you do get to use those last few tokens.

 

[Llanigraham]

London Midland's "Great Escape" is similar - it MUST be purchased from a ticket office. It is made clear that you MUST arrange to visit a ticket office before travel with your online printed voucher before you travel. If you don't do that, you don't get the exceptional special offer. I'm not sure how that differs from an online special offer also not available on the train.

Provided this is made clear in the publicity, which for London Midland it is, I don't see why there is an issue with this.

You can't buy Railcards on the train either, nor did you used to be able to buy annual season tickets (though maybe you now can, I don't know). It doesn't seem to me to be different to either of those cases.

And I believe East Midlands Red Dot day where the tickets were only available from one booking office where was the clamour for section 3 to be applied them.

Again I just see this as certain members just having the knives out for Northern again. Northern made the terms very clear, the OPs friends didn't read / disregarded them or didn't do their homework.The NRCoC allows extra terms to be placed on these tickets so long as they are advertised beforehand. And in the event of well why wasn't the ticket office open earlier in the first place that would be Vkrgins fault not Northern

Well said both.
I said something very similar earlier but it appears that some people will never see it that way.

 

[gray1404]

My view on this one is that the guard acted corrected and told you the correct ticket. He or she could have turned a blind eye and let you wait until you got to Sheffield, but he was certainly under no duty to do this. Northern are allowed to add terms to the offer i.e. that you should have exchanged the tokens for the special ticket before travel. You could always write to their customer relations and see if they have any goodwill in store for you in terms of refunding those tickets you had to buy on board the first train you boarded. But I would not think its likely at all.

 

[34D]

No as its a special offer promotional ticket therefore section 1 applies as quoted on page 1. On some reduced price tickets additional conditions may apply


Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable Byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use; and
(d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or services. Train Companies will ensure that you can be provided with or have access to the conditions applying to any ticket you buy, as well as the Byelaws, before you buy your ticket.

Agreed. Section 1 can happily co-exist with section 3. The existence of the extra conditions is acknowledged.

The issue is whether such 'extra conditions' can over ride the rest of the NRCOC.

I assert that they cannot. Other viewpoints are avaliable.

 

[najaB]

Agreed. Section 1 can happily co-exist with section 3. The existence of the extra conditions is acknowledged.

The issue is whether such 'extra conditions' can over ride the rest of the NRCOC.

I assert that they cannot. Other viewpoints are avaliable.

What part of the NRCoC do you suggest has been overridden?

 

[34D]

What part of the NRCoC do you suggest has been overridden?

It is being suggested that the right to 'part pay' as enshrined in NRCOC clause 3 may not be honoured with great escape/red dot day/northern vouchers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The guard did later come back and mention that we could possibly get a refund on the SPT-SHF ticket at Sheffield. At the ticket office at Sheffield, we explained the situation and were told that, after speaking to a colleague, they could happily sell the rover, but we would have to go through Northern for the refund of the Stockport-Sheffield ticket.

If alighting at Hazel Grove had been reasonably practical, we would have been more than happy to do so. Taking a four hour delay is by no means reasonable! This was also the only train from Hazel Grove to Sheffield too.

As I see it, this is a breech of clause 3.

I suggest you complain to both Northern and EMT, but don't send the tickets to either until one asks.

 

[najaB]

It is being suggested that the right to 'part pay' as enshrined in NRCOC clause 3 may not be honoured with great escape/red dot day/northern vouchers.

I agree there, but that is nothing to do with the actions of the guard on the day, they did the right thing as far as Condition 3 is concerned - sold a ticket appropriate to the journey being made and instructed the passenger to go to the ticket office at Sheffield.

Nor is it specific to the Weekend Ranger. There is a wider problem with Northern - and a few other TOCs - in that they don't seem to want to honour Condition 3. That is why I said that the OP is entitled to a refund of any extra they have had to pay over and above the cost of the Weekend Ranger.

 

[34D]

I agree there, but that is nothing to do with the actions of the guard on the day, they did the right thing as far as Condition 3 is concerned - sold a ticket appropriate to the journey being made and instructed the passenger to go to the ticket office at Sheffield.

Agreed.

Assuming the ticket definitely isn't in avantix, and/or that there is a genuine instruction not to issue on trains. Perhaps a staff member could confirm, in order that help to the op can be best targeted?

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can't buy Railcards on the train eith nor did you used to be able to buy annual season tickets (though maybe you now can, I don't know). It doesn't seem to me to be different to either of those cases.

Railcards are not a ticket.

You cannot buy an annual season ticket on the train, but you can buy a part-fare and exchange that towards an annual season ticket when you reach a staffed station.

I agree that Northern can impose extra restrictions on a promotional ticket (e.g. no refund, no exchange, fare only available in advance).

However I do not see how this permits them to ignore other parts of the NRCoC, in particular clause 3 which states you can part-pay for a ticket where the full range of tickets is not available when you start your journey.

If the terms of the weekend ranger (like AP tickets, and like most promotional single fares) are that it is only available for sale in advance of travel, then Northern have done nothing wrong. If it doesn't, but the only condition it must be sold at a ticket office, then they should abide by clause 3.

I'd agree that the guard has done nothing wrong, but that the OP should not lose out financially because Northern were unwilling or unable to abide by the NRCoC.

As for the Red Dot Day promotion, I'd again say that EMT are able to say that it is only to be sold at one ticket office, but that they should either allow people to part-pay under clause 3 to reach that ticket office or insist that it is only sold in advance.

 

[Harpers Tate]

IF there is a thing that is wrong in this tale then it is the apparent refusal of Sheffield to sell the rover for the incremental cost, if the reason for refusal was the "other TOC" reason. For the "other TOC" reason is surely never a valid one. We have seen reports elsewhere of this happening. The Railway operators are not supposed to act like they are fragmented, yet frequently they do and if that's the sole what and why in this case then it's wrong.

I suspect that Northern want their rovers sold at offices (only) to ensure proper handling of the promotional form; that they think there is some risk of misplacement if sold on board. That in itself doesn't preclude the customer from boarding at an unstaffed location, paying an initial fare (if so required) and then upgrading at a staffed location later on.

Indeed, I can't see any real reason why this isn't allowed, expected and properly handled.

I think this is all very distinct from the EMT Red Dot Day promotions where it is the INTENT that one must buy the fare from one location and one only.

 

[najaB]

Indeed, I can't see any real reason why this isn't allowed, expected and properly handled.

This seems to be a problem with Northern - one member from the Greater Manchester area has detailed the problems he has had trying to get them to honour Condition 3.

 

[Haywain]

I know bashing Northern for their failings is very popular, but I would like to point out that the ticket office at Sheffield that is being criticised for failing to honour condition 3 is not operated by Northern, but by East Midlands Trains. Whatever the ir weaknesses in other areas of their business, they really cannot be criticised for the actions of another TOC.

 

[yorkie]

But Condition 3 is simply not fit for purpose, as if the roles were reversed (EMT train and Northern ticket office) exactly the same scenario would happen. Even if it's the same train and ticket office this can occur (a forum member spent 30 minutes faffing around with a refund request from SWT who stated he should not have adhered to Condition 3).

Northern do recognise this and have told several of our members that they do not enforce it.

All the TOCs should take collective responsibility for the complete farce that is Condition 3.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I love Northern - their twitter people are very funny indeed.

Why is the weekend rover more pricey then the weekday?

 

[bb21]

Having slept on it last night and thought about this in more detail, I am now inclined towards the opinion that Northern may have ballsed this offer up.

Neil pointed out that London Midland made explicit mention of the requirement to purchase the Great Escape ticket prior to travelling with it, in advance if necessary, effectively putting a booking deadline on the ticket, which in my opinion would fall under Condition 1c, thereby overriding the entitlement under Condition 3, since a passenger, having joined a train, would have automatically gone past the booking deadline. (Similar to Advance fares in many ways if you like.)

I was certainly under the impression that Northern did too. Having examined their terms in detail, I cannot however find it. The only condition relevant to Northern's latest offer is that the ticket must be purchased from a ticket office, but this is not contradictory to Condition 3. There is no explicit booking deadline, or any requirement to purchase in advance, then I find it impossible to argue that the passenger must purchase the ticket in advance of travel should the ticket office be closed on the day of departure, as Condition 3 is worded to cater for exactly such a scenario, with the only diffference being that onboard staff have no facility to issue such a ticket, implying that such a ticket must therefore be purchased at the other end of the journey, or at an interchange station.

I think I know what Northern meant to say in the terms and conditions of this offer, as I am pretty sure that they used to, but they didn't actually say it, unfortunately.

Ironically this meant that the Northern guard, strictly speaking, was correct. The blame lies with EMT whose ticket office staff did not act in line with Condition 3, but I am not sue what they were supposed to do seeing that no mechanism exists for EMT to refund a ticket sold by Northern, unless in times of disruption.

This then brings me to another of my point, similar to yorkie's, that Condition 3 is not fit for purpose.

I am still not 100% sure, but I think the above reasoning makes most sense to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that makes sense to me. I agree on Condition 3 - at present it only applies to a ticket that can be excessed into the desired one, which is only a subset.

 

[najaB]

I think that makes sense to me. I agree on Condition 3 - at present it only applies to a ticket that can be excessed into the desired one, which is only a subset.

I don't agree that it only applies to tickets that can be excessed - though I agree that in practice the 'part' ticket that is sold will generally be for part of the journey taken and so the Condition 3 surrender will in effect be an excess. I'll have to think about it to come up with a situation where it wouldn't be - probably something involving TOC-only fares.

The issue in this case isn't due to a failing of Condition 3, it is a failing of the industry to be able to refund tickets issued by a different TOC. As a customer, it makes sense to me that the TOCs are able to sell each other's tickets so they should be able to refund them as well. Even if, in the background, they have to send physical tickets to each other in the post.

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....no mechanism exists for EMT to refund a ticket sold by Northern, unless in times of disruption......

Is that really the case - no mechnaism - or is it that they actually CAN, but prefer not to have to do so. Surely the very presence of this condition absolutely requires them to do so (at least in wholly unambiguous cases).

 

[najaB]

Is that really the case - no mechnaism - or is it that they actually CAN, but prefer not to have to do so. Surely the very presence of this condition absolutely requires them to do so (at least in wholly unambiguous cases).

I don't work in the industry but I suspect that it is possible but very difficult due to the impact cross-TOC refunds have on revenue share, etc. So there is probably no BAU process set up and it's instead done on a case-by-case ad hoc basis.

 

[bb21]

Is that really the case - no mechnaism - or is it that they actually CAN, but prefer not to have to do so. Surely the very presence of this condition absolutely requires them to do so (at least in wholly unambiguous cases).

Makes no difference to me. If the system is not set up to do it, then then the mechanism is not there (unless you fudge it, which may cause problems with audits). Whether it is physically possible is irrelevant imo.

I see no reason why such a mechanism should not be possible, as long as there is the will.