Northern Rail Weekend Rover - must purchase before boarding?

[185143]

I boarded a Northern train at Stockport, the 05:56 to Sheffield. I had already purchased a rover last night, as it was convenient.

My two friends didn't have a ticket however, and the ticket office at Stockport was closed at that time in the morning, with the ticket not available from ticket machines.

The guard came through the train, who it should be noted if Northern Rail management are reading, was the most arrogant guard I have ever come across. She refused to sell my friends a weekend rover and would only sell a return to Sheffield, at the same fare as the rover! Stating that I should have purchased all three rovers last night! There is no requirement to pre purchase, as in on a different day from travel! and I wouldn't have a spare £27 in school anyway!

They were offered, as a favour, to alight at Hazel Grove and purchase the rover there. Not an option when you're going for the 08:03 Sheffield to Brigg!!

When we get no refund whatsoever from Northern, what is the best way to proceed?

UPDATEheffield have issued rovers no problem at all

 

[Bungle965]

I boarded a Northern train at Stockport, the 05:56 to Sheffield. I had already purchased a rover last night, as it was convenient.

My two friends didn't have a ticket however, and the ticket office at Stockport was closed at that time in the morning, with the ticket not available from ticket machines.

The guard came through the train, who it should be noted if Northern Rail management are reading, was the most arrogant guard I have ever come across. She refused to sell my friends a weekend rover and would only sell a return to Sheffield, at the same fare as the rover! Stating that I should have purchased all three rovers last night! There is no requirement to pre purchase, as in on a different day from travel! and I wouldn't have a spare £27 in school anyway!

They were offered, as a favour, to alight at Hazel Grove and purchase the rover there. Not an option when you're going for the 08:03 Sheffield to Brigg!!

When we get no refund whatsoever from Northern, what is the best way to proceed?

UPDATEheffield have issued rovers no problem at all

I have always found Northern Rail guards a bit hit and miss some are extremely pleasant and others, lets say leave a lot to be desired.
I hope you find the best possible outcome to your situation.
Sam

 

[CyrusWuff]

Whilst the reported actions of the Conductor leave a lot to be desired, the relevant web page says that the tickets in question are only available from Ticket Offices, and that you should contact Customer Relations if you've not got one nearby...not that that's a lot of use at 0550 on a Saturday!

 

[Anvil1984]

The conductor was correct. On a special offer such as the weekend rover you CANNOT purchase on train, it states that clearly in the terms and conditions.

Affix two tokens from participating newspapers to the application form and take to any staffed station within the Northern Rail network. The tickets for this offer cannot be purchased on trains.

It is therefore your or your friends responsibility to purchase the ticket at a time the Virgin booking office is open (not Northerns incompetence if the booking office is advertised as open at 0630 on National Rail Enquiries and not operated by them either) The guard was correct in their actions as you did not have a ticket before boarding to charge for a fare or to show discretion and allow you to purchase at the next staffed station en route.

A little bit of homework and reading the small print would have solved this

 

[34D]

The conductor was correct. On a special offer such as the weekend rover you CANNOT purchase on train, it states that clearly in the terms and conditions.

Affix two tokens from participating newspapers to the application form and take to any staffed station within the Northern Rail network. The tickets for this offer cannot be purchased on trains.

It is therefore your or your friends responsibility to purchase the ticket at a time the Virgin booking office is open (not Northerns incompetence if the booking office is advertised as open at 0630 on National Rail Enquiries and not operated by them either) The guard was correct in their actions as you did not have a ticket before boarding to charge for a fare or to show discretion and allow you to purchase at the next staffed station en route.

A little bit of homework and reading the small print would have solved this

This has of course thrown up a grey area, which we have discussed before without consensus.

Namely, whether if a ticket is advertised as 'ticket offices only' one is entitled to rely on the 'where the full range is not available' clause. I quote NRCoC 2 and 3 in full:

2. Requirement to hold a ticket Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply.

Train Companies will make tickets and reservations available at stations, over the internet or by telephone as appropriate. Where there are no facilities for buying a ticket at the station, tickets will be available for sale during or at the end of your journey?

Train Companies will offer reservations (where applicable) and tickets to disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional cost.

If you travel in a train

(a) without a ticket; or

(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:

(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open

and

there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order

and

in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order

OR

(ii) The the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.

In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.

Special arrangements may apply if you are disabled. You will find details of these arrangements in each Train Company’s ‘Disabled People’s Protection Policy’.

For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, “full single fare or full return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making. 3. Where the full range of tickets is not available If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel

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The same grey area occurs with the west yorkshire bus and train day rover

 

[Llanigraham]

There does not appear to be any grey area!!

This is a special ticket that has specific Terms & Conditions, including having vouchers from a local paper. See the above post by Anvil.

 

[najaB]

This has of course thrown up a grey area, which we have discussed before without consensus.

Namely, whether if a ticket is advertised as 'ticket offices only' one is entitled to rely on the 'where the full range is not available' clause.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point you are trying to make. The passengers wanted to take advantage of a special offer ticket that has specific restrictions. As this ticket wasn't available they should have bought a ticket that would allow them to make the journey as far as a station with an open ticket office and once there exchanged it for the ticket they wanted in accordance with Condition 3. The return ticket sold by the guard would allow this.

I wonder how the conversation went at the Sheffield ticket office?

 

[Starmill]

The terms and conditions say that you cannot purchase the ticket on the train.

They do not say that you cannot make use of the offer if you cannot access a ticket office before travel.

Given that Northern do not apply Condition 3, the first opportunity to purchase the tickets would have been at Sheffield.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is a special ticket that has specific Terms & Conditions, including having vouchers from a local paper.

Would you care to point out where it says in any document that a TOC can ignore their obligations under the NRCoC?

 

[najaB]

Would you care to point out where it says in any document that a TOC can ignore their obligations under the NRCoC?

Exactly which obligations are you referring to? As I understand it, the NRCoC state:

Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable Byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use; and
(d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or services. Train Companies will ensure that you can be provided with or have access to the conditions applying to any ticket you buy, as well as the Byelaws, before you buy your ticket.

The terms and conditions of the Weekend Rover are available online, one of which says they are only available from ticket offices.

 

[Llanigraham]

Would you care to point out where it says in any document that a TOC can ignore their obligations under the NRCoC?

NRCoC allows this, as has been stated already.
Or are you stating that the NRCoC is incorrect?

 

[34D]

There does not appear to be any grey area!!

This is a special ticket that has specific Terms & Conditions, including having vouchers from a local paper. See the above post by Anvil.

There is, namely whether these tickets can be used from an unstaffed station sans tvm.

 

[najaB]

There is, namely whether these tickets can be used from an unstaffed station sans tvm.

They can be used from any station (within the area of validity). They can only be purchased from staffed stations. I don't see the problem.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Would you care to point out where it says in any document that a TOC can ignore their obligations under the NRCoC?

I think Condition 58 makes it expressly clear that they cannot

NATIONAL RAIL CONDITIONS of CARRIAGE

Condition 58. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents

A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

 

[Alex C.]

There is, namely whether these tickets can be used from an unstaffed station sans tvm.

I tend to interpret things in a fairly consumer friendly fashion, but reading the conditions of carriage as posted above, I have this train of thought:

If you travel in a train

(a) without a ticket; or

(a) would apply, so I'll skip (b)

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:

(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open

and

there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order

and

in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order

OR

(ii) The the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.

This is not an AND, it is an OR - so whilst only (i) applies, (ii) doesn't need to apply

In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.

Well if you had bought the ticket immediately before the journey you would have paid the weekend rover price.

There clearly is something in the next part of the conditions of carriage which have been quoted

Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable Byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use; and
(d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or services. Train Companies will ensure that you can be provided with or have access to the conditions applying to any ticket you buy, as well as the Byelaws, before you buy your ticket.

Which would mean that you can't purchase the ticket on the train.

Since the terms are in conflict, the correct thing would be to allow the ticket to be bought at the next staffed station (which the guard did offer) - there is no right to travel until it is convenient to visit a ticket office.

All my opinion of course

 

[LowLevel]

I think Condition 58 makes it expressly clear that they cannot

NATIONAL RAIL CONDITIONS of CARRIAGE

Condition 58. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents

A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

The most ignored condition of them all. I waive them in favour of the customer on a very regular basis.

 

[yorkie]

When we get no refund whatsoever from Northern, what is the best way to proceed?

UPDATEheffield have issued rovers no problem at all

If Northern do not refund you, contact Transport Focus and take it from there. Let us know how you get on.

 

[34D]

I'm not sure the word 'incompetent' in the thread title is a fair word. Could 185143 give consideration to changing it?

My suggestion is "northern rail weekend rover: commencing journey from unstaffed station and wanting to buy booking office only ticket" but that's just an idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Northern do not refund you, contact Transport Focus and take it from there. Let us know how you get on.

Can the op clarify whether they paid again or whether there was a part payment thing at Sheffield ticket office?

 

[30907]

UPDATEheffield have issued rovers no problem at all

Why would there be a problem? Sheffield has a ticket office.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Northern do not refund you, contact Transport Focus and take it from there. Let us know how you get on.

For reasons already stated several times over, that would be a waste of your and TF's time.

 

[34D]

Why would there be a problem? Sheffield has a ticket office.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


For reasons already stated several times over, that would be a waste of your and TF's time.

Why do you think that? The people part-paid, so this should be a simple clause 3 situation?

 

[Anvil1984]

Because it is covered in NRCoC section 1 as posted above that Northern may attach extra conditions to these tickets also long as they are published and they will have been. BOTH in the newspaper at time of vouchers being printed and on the website. This is a newspaper promotional ticket not an offer available to everyone to purchase freely so they are in a different grey area to WY Metro tickets.

Again OP friends collect Vouchers which state they have to be taken to ticket office, OP and friends have an early train catch and either a) don't bother reading terms and conditions or bother checking if VIRGIN booking office is open at that time in the morning and we get usual result of its all Northerns fault, the guard is a meanie and take it to PF

 

[bb21]

It is a difficult one but I must say that I am inclined towards the opinion that there is no case in this one. I feel your pain, OP, but I cannot see how Northern should be blamed in this case unless the ticket office at Stockport should have been open, when the requirement to purchase from a ticket office was clearly stated.

Chalk this one down to experience. TF often cannot even help when the passenger is undoubtedly and demonstrably correct, I highly suspect that you will be wasting their (and your own) time.

That said, I am not entirely sure as I don't think this is black and white. There are good arguments on both sides.

 

[Anvil1984]

It is a difficult one but I must say that I am inclined towards the opinion that there is no case in this one. I feel your pain, OP, but I cannot see how Northern should be blamed in this case unless the ticket office at Stockport should have been open, when the requirement to purchase from a ticket office was clearly stated.

Chalk this one down to experience. TF often cannot even help when the passenger is undoubtedly and demonstrably correct, I highly suspect that you will be wasting their (and your own) time.

Ticket office at Stockport not advertised to open until 0630 according to NRES

 

[bb21]

This has of course thrown up a grey area, which we have discussed before without consensus.

Namely, whether if a ticket is advertised as 'ticket offices only' one is entitled to rely on the 'where the full range is not available' clause. I quote NRCoC 2 and 3 in full:

That is exactly the point I have been thinking about.

 

[najaB]

That is exactly the point I have been thinking about.

The guard did the right thing - offered to carry the passengers as far as the next open ticket office at Hazel Grove, and when that was declined sold them a ticket appropriate to the journey they were making.

The question is what happened at the ticket office in Sheffield? Did they attempt to exchange the ticket under Condition 3? If they attempted and it was declined, then they are due a refund.

 

[34D]

The guard did the right thing - offered to carry the passengers as far as the next open ticket office at Hazel Grove, and when that was declined sold them a ticket appropriate to the journey they were making.

The question is what happened at the ticket office in Sheffield? Did they attempt to exchange the ticket under Condition 3? If they attempted and it was declined, then they are due a refund.

The issue is so grey that I don't feel able to say with confidence they are entitled to a refund though. The two alternatives are:

TICKET ADVERTISED AS TICKET OFFICE ONLY
Option 1
The ticket must be bought from a staffed ticket office (potentially the day before). This ticket is excluded from the 'full range' hence these people have to pay a ticket (or worse) to their choice of staffed ticket office (or the next calling point if PFs apply) which cannot be offset against a subsequent purchase.

Option 2
This ticket is part of the full range, so if the station tvm can't sell it (or if no facilities at all) it can be purchased on train or, if it isn't listed on the on-train avantix machine, a suitable ticket is to be sold to get them to a convenient staffed station, with the proviso that they aren't obliged to delay their itinerary (especially noting three trains a day to Brigg). At said ticket office, a clause 3 part payment scenario applies, with refund to the customer where appropriate (though I would hope that wouldn't happen, by which I mean I hope that a more expensive ticket would never be sold).

Have I covered all angles here, in a fair unbiased way?

Obviously I hope option 2 applies, though I am far from convinced that it does.

 

[najaB]

Obviously I hope option 2 applies, though I am far from convinced that it does.

I suppose it all hangs on the meaning of "the full range". I'm of the opinion that it means "any ticket that you would be able to buy at the ticket office" in which case the Weekend Rover is included.

 

[34D]

I suppose it all hangs on the meaning of "the full range". I'm of the opinion that it means "any ticket that you would be able to buy at the ticket office" in which case the Weekend Rover is included.

Yes, and also the Metro Dayrover.

Do southern (or whatever they're called this week) still have a ticket which can only be purchased from tourist information centres?

 

[Coolzac]

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

Surely, this exactly explains the situation here? The ticket can only be bought from a ticket office, and the ticket office was closed. Therefore, the OP's friends should have bought a single to Sheffield and then bought the ticket they wanted from there. The guard did the right thing in the situation (I often take the side of the passenger too).

However, I certainly think that condition 3 applies. If it is a ticket that can be bought at a ticket office, then surely it is part of the 'full range' of tickets that is spoken of in condition 3?

 

[Anvil1984]

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

Surely, this exactly explains the situation here? The ticket can only be bought from a ticket office, and the ticket office was closed. Therefore, the OP's friends should have bought a single to Sheffield and then bought the ticket they wanted from there. The guard did the right thing in the situation (I often take the side of the passenger too).

However, I certainly think that condition 3 applies. If it is a ticket that can be bought at a ticket office, then surely it is part of the 'full range' of tickets that is spoken of in condition 3?

No as its a special offer promotional ticket therefore section 1 applies as quoted on page 1. On some reduced price tickets additional conditions may apply


Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable Byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use; and
(d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or services. Train Companies will ensure that you can be provided with or have access to the conditions applying to any ticket you buy, as well as the Byelaws, before you buy your ticket.