Northern Rail Stock Shortage Problems

[northwichcat]

junglejames - When people have asked Northern about using trains used for peak time strengthening/extra services as off-peak strengthening during school holidays their response has been 'no can't do' due to maintenance schedules.

Sending 319s to Northern may result in 4 different classes of EMUs (not counting 321s and 322s as two different classes) at Northern and the total number of EMUs at Northern being lower than the number used on Thameslink.

 

[DarloRich]

the 700's are the new Thameslink trains.

In the next few years TPE will be starting to get 10 class 350's for their services once the electrification of Liverpool/Blackpool to Manchester and on to York is completed enough for them to start running services, which should free up some DMU's for use elsewhere.

I doubt TPE will give up any of their 185's! They need them almost as much as Northern do. I also wouldn’t hold out much hope of getting anything from north of the border. They see those trains as "theirs" now

Aren’t the 350's for the Manchester - Scotland services?

 

[Wath Yard]

Sending 319s to Northern may result in 4 different classes of EMUs (not counting 321s and 322s as two different classes) at Northern and the total number of EMUs at Northern being lower than the number used on Thameslink.

I doesn't matter if Northern end up with 14 different types of EMU. Thameslink is more than new trains, it is also a multi-billion £ infrastructure project and the 319s wouldn't be able to provide the level of service required.

It's simple. Northern are getting cascaded EMUs in the next few years. After that there is the Northern Hub which will increase capacity and speed up journeys and will require more units. Nothing is going to happen before electrification - there are no spare DMUs and you can't just go into the train showroom and drive one home.

 

[dosxuk]

I doubt TPE will give up any of their 185's!

What about the 170s? Send them to, say Scotrail, then cascade some 156s to Northern.

While FTPE could do with extra stock, both Northern and EMT are in more desperate need.

 

[northwichcat]

What about the 170s? Send them to, say Scotrail, then cascade some 156s to Northern.

While FTPE could do with extra stock, both Northern and EMT are in more desperate need.

The proposed May 2014 timetable for TPE will use 10 x 350/4s, 9 x 170s and 51 x 185s. North TPE electrification is quite a way off and won't happen before the current TPE franchise ends so no plans for any cascades out of TPE are planned.
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I doesn't matter if Northern end up with 14 different types of EMU.

junglejames was saying it wouldn't make sense for 3 types of EMU being used on Thameslink, so I was pointing out there could be more types of EMUs at Northern than 3.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't know whether the FNW slam door stock (101s and 31 hauled Mk2s?) lasted longer than the ScotRail 117s/ 305s or the ATN 37 hauled Mk2s)?

Fairly small numbers of each left at the end, of course.

The ATN class 37s and mark 2s weren't a long running thing though, and certainly weren't a carry over from the "glory days" of loco haulage and slam-door stock pre-Sprinterisation like the North West 101s and Scottish 117s. They were just a stop-gap measure that was brought in for a short period of time to cover a shortage of DMUs.
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Was it some of these which were re-painted back into their old green livery, as I used to see some units painted as such running from the low-numbered terminal platforms at Manchester Piccadilly around that time ?

Only one of those units was repainted back into BR green livery. It was called "Daisy".

 

[junglejames]

junglejames - When people have asked Northern about using trains used for peak time strengthening/extra services as off-peak strengthening during school holidays their response has been 'no can't do' due to maintenance schedules.

And? Northern are obviously stretching their fleet too much as it is. Extra trains during off peak, and they are stretched even more.
Your point sort of backs my point up. It will get to the stage where trains are never at the depots, and have zero maintenance carried out. Are passengers then going to moan because the trains are failing even more?

Sending 319s to Northern may result in 4 different classes of EMUs (not counting 321s and 322s as two different classes) at Northern and the total number of EMUs at Northern being lower than the number used on Thameslink.

That is true, but what I also meant, but never mentioned, was that if the new stock was shared, and the 319s stayed where they are, then Northern still have the same number of different types, and Thameslink have numerous types as well. Isnt it better just one TOC getting the numerous types? Especially as i expect 319s are a lot more compatible with 321/ 322s than they are with the Siemens stock!!!
Also with Northern, it would be easier to keep the stock seperate. Not so on Thameslink. You dont really want to find that the 2 units left at the depot for the rush hour train is one 319, and one newbuild.

On top of that, sharing the newbuild would have probably meant ordering 2 different types of train as Thameslink have ordered stock that is designed specifically for that use. Would it also suit Northern?

Overall, the current plan is surely the best solution. Well it would be if those complaining about Northerns stock didnt keep on about London Centric.
If the major upgrade to Thameslink wasnt happening, and they never required extra stock, then Northern would have a case for brand new EMUs. As it is, Thameslink is also involved, and you cant go scrapping 319s just because they arent fresh from the factory.

 

[D365]

The proposed rebuild, similarly to those on 317 and 321/322, should improve the 319 fleet quite significantly.

 

[tbtc]

Sending 319s to Northern may result in 4 different classes of EMUs (not counting 321s and 322s as two different classes) at Northern and the total number of EMUs at Northern being lower than the number used on Thameslink.

junglejames was saying it wouldn't make sense for 3 types of EMU being used on Thameslink, so I was pointing out there could be more types of EMUs at Northern than 3.

The big difference is that Thameslink need a common type of EMU to work through the "core" due to the technology required for speedy progress through that bottleneck.

Since the Lancashire EMUs have no interaction with the Yorkshire EMUs the fact that there are different types has no real impact on either side - unlike Thameslink which will effectively have one common fleet.

The ATN class 37s and mark 2s weren't a long running thing though, and certainly weren't a carry over from the "glory days" of loco haulage and slam-door stock pre-Sprinterisation like the North West 101s and Scottish 117s. They were just a stop-gap measure that was brought in for a short period of time to cover a shortage of DMUs

True, though the same could be said of the FNW 31s/ mk2s that I also mentioned

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably, as they're unlikely to ever run on Merseyrail, the 319 fleet rebuilds will leave them AC-only? If they got the same rebuild (same seats, same loos, same air con, same traction package) there would be basically a single class of 280 units where the only significant difference was the driving cabs (with the 317s obviously having that vestibule as part of the cab area).

 

[The Ham]

The proposed May 2014 timetable for TPE will use 10 x 350/4s, 9 x 170s and 51 x 185s. North TPE electrification is quite a way off and won't happen before the current TPE franchise ends so no plans for any cascades out of TPE are planned.

Ah, OK. it should however allow more TPE coaches to run, which should relieve a little bit of pressure on some of the Northern services.

 

[northwichcat]

Since the Lancashire EMUs have no interaction with the Yorkshire EMUs the fact that there are different types has no real impact on either side - unlike Thameslink which will effectively have one common fleet.

That might change when EMUs will be able to get between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield.

True, though the same could be said of the FNW 31s/ mk2s that I also mentioned

The reintroduction of the mk2 set wasn't that long after the last diesel slam door sets were withdrawn following the class 175 introduction.

That was down to not enough units being transferred from ATN to TPE to cover all the TPE routes, so 2 x 158s were subleased from FNW until some 158s were cascaded from CT following the arrival of the MML 170s at Central.
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Ah, OK. it should however allow more TPE coaches to run, which should relieve a little bit of pressure on some of the Northern services.

There will effectively be an additional York-Liverpool service every hour but with the Scottish services going via Wigan that might put even pressure on the Northern services via Bolton.

 

[talltim]

Whenever the 'the south gets all the new stock' argument comes up, people go on about how the Southern region had slam door stock for ages after the north got new Sprinters and Pacers.

There's a few elements to this. Northeners think of the South differently to southerners*, to northerners the commuter services north of the Thames are 'the south' too. The lines out of Kings Cross, Euston and St Pancras have had stock updates too.

Yes the SR slam door stock got replaced after the pacers were introduced, so the north had newer stock (for a while) but it was Pacers that were intoduced, not proper trains like the SR got.

If you compare the local trains where I used to live (Harpenden) with my current location's (Sheffield) the disparity is huge since the 80s
South: early 80s-new 317s; late 80s-new 319s; early 2000s-new 377s; mid 2010s-new 700s
North: mid 80s-new Pacers; late 80s/early 90s-Sprinters; late 2000s-new 185s (on a few services)

*I'm a southener transplanted to Sheffield. My wife's family refer to the whole south-east as 'London'.

 

[northwichcat]

Whenever the 'the south gets all the new stock' argument comes up, people go on about how the southern region had slam door stock for ages after the nroth got new spirnters and pacers.
There's a few elements to this. Northeners think of the South differently to southerners*, to northerners the commuter services north of the Thames are 'the south' too.

Don't forget EMUs are expected to last around 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs. I think most people in Merseyside would rather see the mid 1980 builds of Pacers go before the late 1970s builds of 50xs.

The 1959 build class 101s stayed in operation in the North West until 2003, while the 1964 build class 421s stayed in operation in the South East until 2004. If the last of the 101s were good enough for the North West at almost 45 years old, the last of the 421s should have been good enough to still be in service in the South East and to remain in service for a few years yet.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What about the 170s? Send them to, say Scotrail, then cascade some 156s to Northern.

While FTPE could do with extra stock, both Northern and EMT are in more desperate need.

Have you seen some of the North TPE services? Leaving people at stations is fairly drastic too!

 

[DarloRich]

Whenever the 'the south gets all the new stock' argument comes up, people go on about how the Southern region had slam door stock for ages after the north got new Sprinters and Pacers.

There's a few elements to this. Northeners think of the South differently to southerners*, to northerners the commuter services north of the Thames are 'the south' too. The lines out of Kings Cross, Euston and St Pancras have had stock updates too.

The South starts at Doncaster!

 

[ainsworth74]

The South starts at Doncaster!

Nah Sheffield is where the south starts. Go beyond Sheffield and you've entered a strange world. They don't even know what a Parmo is down there!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have you seen some of the North TPE services? Leaving people at stations is fairly drastic too!

The TPE Blackpool to Manchester Airport service at rush-hour periods from the stretch from Bolton to Manchester Piccadilly, even though the Class 185 units are three-car units, needed to be seen to be believed this evening with all the aisles being blocked by long-suffering specimens of homeward-bound travelling humanity after a full days work and that was allowing for the fact that the first class section was announced as being declassified. The service that my wife and I travelled upon was the service that called at Poulton-le-Fylde at 1648, where we joined this service and travelled from there to Manchester Airport.

 

[Class377/5]

700's? The new Thamelsink trains?

But how do you propose to increase capacity in the meantime?

THe 319's will be fine after an internal makeover and an overhaul.

There a plan now in place. I suspect it I'll come out early next year. But there's going o be EMUs for Chat Moss going live.

Now it could be said that Thameslink doesnt need a fleet of brand new trains, but it does need extra trains. So whats the best solution? Order a fleet of EMUs, and give half to Northern and half to Thameslink, leaving Thameslink with 3 types of EMU? Or give Thameslink the whole fleet, and cascade the 319s to Northern? Id say the 2nd option is the best. So what if the 319s are slightly older. They are very good units, and its not right to scrap them, just because they arent brand new.

Thameslink does indeed need a new fleet. Apart from the fact you'd need new to complete the service pattern, current EMU stock cannot cope with the planned service come 2018. Yes the newest stock could just about handle 24tph but spec is ability to do 32tph and no-on building the trains think this is possible with current fleet. For example Siemens spent €40m designing trains that can achieve this.

Remember Thameslink is much a 'Southern Hub' as anything else by allowing better use of railways with major pinch points removed.

Current situation now calls for keeping stock and replace only where very nesscary. Good example of new is TP wires requiring a new fleet.

 

[Haydn1971]

Sheffield Station was noticeably full of Pacers this morning again - just one Sprinter to Barnsley - Makes me think where the service reliability will go once the Pacers do get replaced - I don't like them, but they keep running in all weather

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Nah Sheffield is where the south starts. Go beyond Sheffield and you've entered a strange world. They don't even know what a Parmo is down there!

Parmo is a Sheffield cheese

Sheffield Station was noticeably full of Pacers this morning again - just one Sprinter to Barnsley - Makes me think where the service reliability will go once the Pacers do get replaced - I don't like them, but they keep running in all weather

Sheffield Midland along with Manchester Victoria must be a mecca for " Cattle Truck " spotters

 

[tom1649]

Don't forget EMUs are expected to last around 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs. I think most people in Merseyside would rather see the mid 1980 builds of Pacers go before the late 1970s builds of 50xs.

The 1959 build class 101s stayed in operation in the North West until 2003, while the 1964 build class 421s stayed in operation in the South East until 2004. If the last of the 101s were good enough for the North West at almost 45 years old, the last of the 421s should have been good enough to still be in service in the South East and to remain in service for a few years yet.

The oldest 101s in service with FNW were actually built in 1956! 47 years old on retirement.

 

[northwichcat]

There a plan now in place. I suspect it I'll come out early next year. But there's going to be EMUs for Chat Moss going live.

We know it involves adding 377s to the existing Southern order to be in order for Dec 2014 and the Southern press release mentions additional rolling stock for the wider network.

However, we don't know if it'll involve 377s being subleased to Northern or 377s being temporary replacements for 319s, to allow 319s to be cascaded ahead of the new Thameslink units arriving.

While people have said the 319s can be cascaded and refurbished afterwards it appears the pantographs will need replacing with ones of a different type to be able to operate on the new OHEs.

 

[Class377/5]

We know it involves adding 377s to the existing Southern order to be in order for Dec 2014 and the Southern press release mentions additional rolling stock for the wider network.

However, we don't know if it'll involve 377s being subleased to Northern or 377s being temporary replacements for 319s, to allow 319s to be cascaded ahead of the new Thameslink units arriving.

While people have said the 319s can be cascaded and refurbished afterwards it appears the pantographs will need replacing with ones of a different type to be able to operate on the new OHEs.

Northern is getting 319s, not 377s. Some of us do know this, just not widely known yet. The only question in my mind is How many does Northern really need to allow phase 2 to be EMU from Dec 2014. There is a cascade sorted now but I suspect it will come out soon with the extended franchise agreements being finalised.

As for the pans, you can do that overnight so it's a non-issue blown up by those who don't understand what they reporting.

As for being refurbished, I'm guessing not but don't know for sure. Timeline means one maybe done for the wires but unlikely. However if they ship some of the 319/3 or 319/4 up then the need is much less as the they were only recently done, indeed the 319/3 works were completed in 2010. They will be fine to use for a few years until full fleet is released.

 

[northwichcat]

The only question in my mind is How many does Northern really need to allow phase 2 to be EMU from Dec 2014.

That depends on a number of factors:
1. Exact timetable - we expect Victoria-Lime Street stoppers to be half-hourly all day with services no longer starting from Stalybridge/Huddersfield but no proposed timetable has been drawn up as the change is after the end of the current franchise and no invitation to tender has been issued for the next franchise.
2. Whether you allow for enough EMUs and maintenance spares to allow all services on fully electrified routes to be EMUs, or whether there are still some DMUs used.
3. When the units are first made available. If they arrive in a minimal amount of time before the change then more staff training and refurbishment works will need to done after the timetable change, opposed to if they arrive months in advance.

As for the pans, you can do that overnight so it's a non-issue blown up by those who don't understand what they reporting.

But it will need doing before they can sent up to get line clearance and before crew training can happen.

 

[Class377/5]

That depends on a number of factors:
1. Exact timetable - we expect Victoria-Lime Street stoppers to be half-hourly all day with services no longer starting from Stalybridge/Huddersfield but no proposed timetable has been drawn up as the change is after the end of the current franchise and no invitation to tender has been issued for the next franchise.
2. Whether you allow for enough EMUs and maintenance spares to allow all services on fully electrified routes to be EMUs, or whether there are still some DMUs used.
3. When the units are first made available. If they arrive in a minimal amount of time before the change then more staff training and refurbishment works will need to done after the timetable change, opposed to if they arrive months in advance.

So effective there is no public idea of how many are needed. I wonder if Mr Ford will talk about it in his weeks side of MR?

I reckon your going to have a mixture of EMU & DMU come Dec 2014, just like with the Sottish services in Dec 2013.

I suspect there will be some units coming north months in advance to allow driver training. If Bombardier is able to keep the additional 8 377/6s to the initial orders delivery timeline then all of them could be with Southern by March 2014. (On basis the first 26 377/6 are all to be delivered to Southern in 2013). That would mean a cascade of units that may see units transfer in the May 2014 timetable change.

But it will need doing before they can sent up to get line clearance and before crew training can happen.

And it can be done in a night. There's no problem with it.

 

[northwichcat]

Recent question raised in parliament:

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport with reference to the Thameslink rolling stock contract, what the planned dates are for the cascade of the old Thameslink rolling stock from Thameslink to Great Western and Northern Rail services. [131272]

Mr Simon Burns: We are working with industry partners to ensure that sufficient rolling stock is in place to meet the requirements for North West electrification in December 2014 and Great Western electrification in 2016.

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if the cascade of the old Thameslink rolling stock to the Great Western and Northern Rail services is delayed what alternative provision he plans to make for passengers. [131273]

Mr Simon Burns: We are working with our industry partners to ensure that sufficient rolling stock is provided for the start of electric passenger services in the North West in 2014 and on the Great Western in 2016.

So basically there will be a plan but they haven't finalised the details of it yet.

 

[Class377/5]

Recent question raised in parliament:

So basically there will be a plan but they haven't finalised the details of it yet.

Initial stages completed. I suspect the 2016 is going to take a bit longer as there a lot more units required and is tied into the fate of the class 700 order as on the current timeline there maybe enough to provide a partial EMU service just not a full one if the deal is completed by April 2013.

This with the background of reporting that commercial closure on the Desiro City order is expected to be signed this week. Then it's down to the banks for financial closure in the new year.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

A Question

When the Northern Rail franchise is up in 2014 will the new contact have to include new rolling stock ?

Also with passgener numbers sky high on Northern should all stock after 2014 be a 3 car unit to cope with demand ?

 

[The Ham]

Also with passgener numbers sky high on Northern should all stock after 2014 be a 3 car unit to cope with demand ?

No, some should be 4 car units.