Northern Rail Stock Shortage Problems

[northwichcat]

That's generally required new stock to be ordered (or new stock ordered elsewhere and cascades). Just fiddling with the franchise map won't make any difference - some see it as a panacea for the current lack of DMUs though.

You could give the Mid Cheshire line to Virgin and still find Pacers on it.

Interesting you should make that comment for a few reasons.

1. Bidston-Wrexham used to be a combination of Pacers and Sprinters, like many Northern lines are now. However, when it transferred in to the enlarged Wales & Borders franchise it got rid of it's Pacers.

2. Prior to Northern taking over a class 156 on the Mid-Cheshire line was very rare but there were some booked class 158 and 175 workings.

3. When Northern took over the number of booked Pacer workings on the Mid-Cheshire line initially increased and over time has gone back down to around 40% of workings, back where it was under FNW.

4. To many passengers an unrefurbished 150 is not the same as a refurbished 150 and a 142 with 2+2 seating is not the same as a 142 with the Merseytravel seating. So even where the booked class doesn't change putting west side units on east side diagrams and vice versa does make a difference for the passengers.

If you did give the Mid-Cheshire line to Virgin they might run a weekly Crewe-Greenbank-Chester-Holyhead Voyager service as a timetabled passenger working instead of doing ECS workings for route learning/retention purposes.

 

[AndyLandy]

You could give the Mid Cheshire line to Virgin and still find Pacers on it.

If they're clean, shiny silver Pacers, with 2+2 seating and a micro-buffet, I wouldn't complain!

If you did give the Mid-Cheshire line to Virgin they might run a weekly Crewe-Greenbank-Chester-Holyhead Voyager service as a timetabled passenger working instead of doing ECS workings for route learning/retention purposes.

I didn't think there was a suitable chord for that? I thought it was only the opposite corner that had a chord (Warrington-Northwich).

I've speculated before that a chord in the Hartford area might be a sensible way to run Crewe-Chester trains, then you could do away with the entire existing line, since there's nothing else en-route. Assuming you could path any more trains through the Weaver Valley.

 

[tbtc]

If you did give the Mid-Cheshire line to Virgin they might run a weekly Crewe-Greenbank-Chester-Holyhead Voyager service as a timetabled passenger working instead of doing ECS workings for route learning/retention purposes.

There's nothing stopping Virgin from doing that right now, if they thought that such a route was viable - no franchise re-mapping required

 

[northwichcat]

I didn't think there was a suitable chord for that? I thought it was only the opposite corner that had a chord (Warrington-Northwich).

Via the Middlewich branch which joins the Mid-Cheshire line metres westbound of Northwich station they can.

There's nothing stopping Virgin from doing that right now, if they thought that such a route was viable - no franchise re-mapping required

They couldn't stop their trains between Chester and Crewe though which would be counter-productive scheduling a passenger service to go a longer way without serving any additional stations.

 

[AndyLandy]

Via the Middlewich branch which joins the Mid-Cheshire line metres westbound of Northwich station they can.

I thought that had been closed? I know there's been talk of reinstating it. Or is it simply currently disused, rather than actually torn up?

They couldn't stop their trains between Chester and Crewe though which would be counter-productive scheduling a passenger service to go a longer way without serving any additional stations.

Are the platforms on the MCR even long enough to accommodate a 5x23m Voyager? It'll be pretty tight at some of the stations along the line.

 

[tbtc]

They couldn't stop their trains between Chester and Crewe though which would be counter-productive scheduling a passenger service to go a longer way without serving any additional stations.

Due to platform lengths?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that had been closed? I know there's been talk of reinstating it. Or is it simply currently disused, rather than actually torn up?

No only Middlewich station was closed, the line remains open and part of the NR network but there are no regular passenger workings on the line. The line is used for freight workings and used when there are engineering works or problems on the Chester-Crewe - the last time being yesterday when the Crewe-Chester line was flooded and Holyhead to London trains ran via Middlewich.

Are the platforms on the MCR even long enough to accommodate a 5x23m Voyager? It'll be pretty tight at some of the stations along the line.

Not all platforms are long enough but Voyagers do have SDO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Due to platform lengths?

Due to Virgin not having permission to call at stations on the line. The same also applies to ATW who divert along the line.

 

[ainsworth74]

Due to Virgin not having permission to call at stations on the line. The same also applies to ATW who divert along the line.

Fixing that doesn't require a franchise remapping it requires VT to submit a request to the ORR to be allowed to operate services to those stations.

 

[northwichcat]

Fixing that doesn't require a franchise remapping it requires VT to submit a request to the ORR to be allowed to operate services to those stations.

Yes but if they ran the local service as tbtc suggested then they would already have permission to operate services from any Mid-Cheshire line station so it would be easier for them to stop an additional service at a said station.

 

[tbtc]

Due to Virgin not having permission to call at stations on the line. The same also applies to ATW who divert along the line.

That doesn't mean a whole new franchise - just like they didn't need a new franchise to start their daytime Wilmslow services (or LM need a new franchise for their ORCATS proposal to Preston etc).

TOC applies to stop trains at a station, others may object, Government decide on whether to accept application. No remapping required.

 

[causton]

This is about the most appropriate thread - as I didn't want to create a new one:

If I were going from London to ride a Pacer as part of a trip (for a short distance, I'm not that crazy!) - where would be the best place to go to and what are the best services to catch? I would probably buy an AP to somewhere, ride around, then another AP back home...

 

[ainsworth74]

You're best bets would be to go to Exeter St Davids, Cardiff Queen Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Sheffield or Leeds if you go to anyone of those locations a Pacer (and many more afterwards) will be in your future. Personally I'd suggest Leeds as there should be plenty of Pacers around and a WY Train Day Rover is dirt cheap (£5ish I think).

 

[causton]

You're best bets would be to go to Exeter St Davids, Cardiff Queen Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Sheffield or Leeds if you go to anyone of those locations a Pacer (and many more afterwards) will be in your future. Personally I'd suggest Leeds as there should be plenty of Pacers around and a WY Train Day Rover is dirt cheap (£5ish I think).

Thanks! Leeds sounds like a good idea in that case

 

[northwichcat]

Do you have any preference to the type of Pacer? The 144s that are common in the Leeds area ride better than the 142s and have high back seating, so don't stand out as being different as much as the 142s do.

Although, saying that 144s are the common type in the Leeds area, I think the Leeds-Huddersfield via Dewsbury stoppers are still mainly 142s and you might be able to get a London-Bramley Advance for the same price as London-Leeds or very little extra.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Do you have any preference to the type of Pacer? The 144s that are common in the Leeds area ride better than the 142s and have high back seating, so don't stand out as being different as much as the 142s do.

Although, saying that 144s are the common type in the Leeds area, I think the Leeds-Huddersfield via Dewsbury stoppers are still mainly 142s and you might be able to get a London-Bramley Advance for the same price as London-Leeds or very little extra.

The 144's have a dam sight better leg room than the Class 142's, at least with the bench seating you could stretch your legs a bit, with the refurb classed 142 its like sitting in childbirth for your journey.

 

[northwichcat]

The 144's have a dam sight better leg room than the Class 142's, at least with the bench seating you could stretch your legs a bit, with the refurb classed 142 its like sitting in childbirth for your journey.

In my opinion the 144s don't have much leg room. My knees are always touching the back of the plastic of the seat in front, which is the same on the Merseytravel 142s (even more so), the ex-ATN 156s and a lot of seats on the Northern 150s without facing seats, although on some of the 150s the leg room is different in different parts of the train.

 

[RPI]

Northern aren't the only TOC with capacity issues though, the West area of FGW, ie Bristol/Exeter/Cornwall urgently needs extra stock, far too many 2 car 143's running about where they need to be 4 car 150's, the Cornish mainline with 2 car 150's where most of the time at least 3 cars are needed, 5 in summer. But there is the possibility of a a cascade of 16x units in a few years but until then i think we will all be suffering!

 

[Manchester77]

Yes but northern is the whole of the northern (hence the name)
You're talking about several lines in the west. It's no where near as big an area or as widespread problem as that that Northern has.
The units you speak of, Thames Turbos, were built wider than standard to take advantage of the bigger clearances on the former Broad Gauge GWR so unfortunately no cascade...

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Yes but northern is the whole of the northern (hence the name)
You're talking about several lines in the west. It's no where near as big an area or as widespread problem as that that Northern has.
The units you speak of, Thames Turbos, were built wider than standard to take advantage of the bigger clearances on the former Broad Gauge GWR so unfortunately no cascade...

A number of people have said " Northern " is far to big and needs to be split, however their would still only be the same stock doing the same routes

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Would it? I'm sure franchise splits have led to debatable stock allocations in the past. Who knows, perhaps if Northern was split into west and east, one side would end up with a load of 150s and the other would end up with a load of Pacers or similar. It also depends on what depot can deal with what stock.

 

[northwichcat]

Would it? I'm sure franchise splits have led to debatable stock allocations in the past. Who knows, perhaps if Northern was split into west and east, one side would end up with a load of 150s and the other would end up with a load of Pacers or similar. It also depends on what depot can deal with what stock.

Before the merger the stock allocations were:

FNW:
142
150/1
150/2
153
156
158
175 (shared pool with ATW)
323

ATN:
142
144
150/2
153
155
156
158
321
333

It was Northern who decided to allocate the FNW 153s and 158s to the east side and send the ATN 150s and 156s to the west side.

 

[tbtc]

Would it? I'm sure franchise splits have led to debatable stock allocations in the past. Who knows, perhaps if Northern was split into west and east, one side would end up with a load of 150s and the other would end up with a load of Pacers or similar. It also depends on what depot can deal with what stock.

That is kind of what we have at the moment (as jcollins says) - the east/west split seems to make operational sense (even if there are arguments about whether the grass is greener on the other side) - keeping 144/ 155/ 158s on the east side and 156s on the west (plus only two types of DMU in the NE area).

The only surprise is that Yorkshire has a small number of 150s - this doesn't seem big enough for any real economies of scale - though my judgement on this is perhaps clouded by seeing the rare trips to Sheffield (often on the Penistone Line) - there may be more in Leeds on an average day (after the timetable changes)?

 

[northwichcat]

The only surprise is that Yorkshire has a small number of 150s - this doesn't seem big enough for any real economies of scale - though my judgement on this is perhaps clouded by seeing the rare trips to Sheffield (often on the Penistone Line) - there may be more in Leeds on an average day (after the timetable changes)?

My understanding is the 150s are all allocated to Newton Heath. The 156s have been moved to the reopened Allerton depot to free up space for the additional cascaded 150s. However, in doing that it's meant all the extra units are Manchester based but some were needed for extra capacity in and around Leeds and Sheffield, so more Manchester based units are used on Yorkshire diagrams.

The 158s had CCTV fitted funded by PTEs. The units allocated to Calder Vale had it funded by TfGM, the others by WYPTE. A condition of the CCTV being funded was that if they were removed from the current routes that the replacement units would have CCTV fitted which the PTE wouldn't need to fund again.