Northern Rail Stock Shortage Problems

[Mark_H]

If it's one carriage it'll be a Class 153, otherwise known as a dogbox.

A dog box? How appropriate. Thanks, looking it up on wikipedia confirms it's a 153 - the first picture is either my usual morning train, or its twin!

 

[Greybeard33]

They definitely need the extra stock, but it doesn't mean they should be given priority. Once the 319s are released the average train - especially on the busier routes in the south-western area of the operation - will be longer, hopefully with 156s released by the 319s sent to assume Pacer duties elsewhere.

156s, although preferable to Pacers, really are not suitable stock for Northern's congested commuter services. The narrow doors, at the extreme ends of a 23m carriage, together with the cramped vestibules, cause extended station dwell times as passengers struggle to get on and off. The spacious 2+2 seating layout leaves an unnecessarily high proportion of passengers standing.

Ideally these units should be used on the longer distance services for which they were designed.

 

[sprinterguy]

The former EM (I think) green 150's were a disgrace I encountered on a Carlisle to Leeds run last winter.

You had a bad stroke of luck there as the Carlisle to Leeds services are generally class 158s. Sometimes even a three carriage unit if you are lucky. The green 150s came from London Midland, and Central Trains before that.
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What age group will these cascaded EMU's fall in, if and when they finally appear?

Similar age to the Sprinter trains presently in use with Northern: The 319s were built between 1987 and 1990.

 

[northwichcat]

Age and reliability are unrelated, of course. Some of the most reliable trains in Britain are the 220s, and some of the least reliable are the 180s. Both were built in the same year. (And both are high-speed DMUs so that's a valid comparison.)

Large fleets are normally quite reliable though whatever their age.

There's only a small number of 180s split between 3 operators.

XC have a fleet of 220s and 221s with a few HSTs thrown in.

You'd expect Northern to get better Pacer and 150 reliability than FGW get.

 

[sprinterguy]

To be looking on the other side of that same coin, for how many years did the Class 304 "slam-door" EMU stock run on services in the North-West on commuter routes before they were finally withdrawn?

Checking Wikipedia, the 304s made it to about thirty five years old.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'll get my coat

In defense of my forgetful brain, there are 3 franchises running out of my home station, and I use them all.

On the other hand, I wasn't claiming it was a pacer, just copying the OP's humorous description. What is my one-car wonder? A Super Sprinter?

As for your eye-rolling: No, I have no idea of East Midland's capacity needs elsewhere, I can only comment on my own service. If no-one complains because "they might not know everything", then nothing will ever get fixed. And I can safely say that my service will now feature plenty of people standing to Market Rasen every day, often of the little-old-lady variety, because of this decision. I dread to think what will happen in summer, when even the 2-car unit was jam packed.

Keep David Horne and all of his other managers will be pleases to know he's found another busy service to reduce in length, it seems to be the one of the only things he knows how to do along with delaying passengers for no reason. These trains have NO legroom NO aircon Horrid seats and generally look cheap and warn out

 

[The Ham]

As a short term way of freeing up units, are there any services that the Pretendolino could take over from? (not necessarily northern)

As a medium(ish) term way, are there any routes that are due to be electrified that could be pushed to the top of the list to free up units a little faster?

As a long term solution we are just going to have to buy a whole load more trains.

 

[ainsworth74]

As a medium(ish) term way, are there any routes that are due to be electrified that could be pushed to the top of the list to free up units a little faster?

The scaled back EGIP could be scaled back up to what it was supposed to be and wiring the fife circle are two that spring to mind.

 

[tom1649]

I think the slam door electrics in the North West were withdrawn in the mid-1990s. Slam doors diesels remained in the North West until around 2003. It should have been around 2001 but class 175 teething problems meant 6 or so units remained in service for an extra couple of years. There was then a slam door loco hauled set introduced to cover for 158s being subleased to TPE, which remained in service until Northern Rail took over in 2004.

The last slam door EMUs in the North West were 309s which ran until 2000. A few 305s were kept for occasional use until 1999. 304s were gone by about 1996.

 

[tbtc]

I don't know whether the FNW slam door stock (101s and 31 hauled Mk2s?) lasted longer than the ScotRail 117s/ 305s or the ATN 37 hauled Mk2s)?

Fairly small numbers of each left at the end, of course.

 

[tom1649]

Well a handful of 101s lasted until December 2003 on the Rose Hill/Marple/New Mills services, so they definitely outlived the Scotrail 117s (November 1999) and the 305s (January 2002).

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know whether the FNW slam door stock (101s and 31 hauled Mk2s?) lasted longer than the .... the ATN 37 hauled Mk2s)?

I think it was a draw between these 2. Northern didn't want the loco-hauled stock that ATN had been using so didn't take it on and didn't need the loco-hauled stock that FNW had subleased as they got back the 2 x 158s that had been subleased to TPE.

 

[YorkshireBear]

.

You'd expect Northern to get better Pacer and 150 reliability than FGW get.

Northerns fleet get worked bloody hard though. Not saying FGWs dont, but especially interiors are not treated well at all on Northern no wonder they get in a state.

 

[LE Greys]

On the grounds of 'send it where it's needed', I've just voted yes.

 

[thelem]

I shall ask again! It is fine to complain but lets hear a sensible way of solving the problem

It would actually help if they went ahead and ordered the 700s, so the 319 cascade plan can actually happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well a handful of 101s lasted until December 2003 on the Rose Hill/Marple/New Mills services, so they definitely outlived the Scotrail 117s (November 1999) and the 305s (January 2002).

Was it some of these which were re-painted back into their old green livery, as I used to see some units painted as such running from the low-numbered terminal platforms at Manchester Piccadilly around that time ?

 

[shedman]

Stock cascades are better suited to the franchise rather than new is my opinion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Stock cascades are better suited to the franchise rather than new is my opinion.

If what you have just said were the words of a song, the tune should be that of the song from the musical sung many years ago by Barbra Streisand...."Second Hand Rose".

That song had the line...."I never get a single thing that's new"...

Whether it is true or not, was there a saying attributed to the Queen Consort to Louis XVI of France, Marie-Antoinette...."Let them eat cake" when the populace were in need of certain things....

 

[sheff'd victoria]

. Now, where did I put my Whippet?

Its on the 0803 Northern Rail Service from Sheffield Midland to Cleethorpes

Reliability of the fleet has slowly got worse over the last few months mainly down to decisions made by Northern and they are only going to get worse as the number of station Fitters are cut.

Anyone know where all the fitters for Northern are located ?

Boy am I glad I live on Chilterns network ,on time ,clean,and we get new trains ,this a big differnce to you poor devils in the north.Perhaps if local authorities get control over what goes into the local services you will receive decent rolling stock.

Thats is rub it in why dont you

156s, although preferable to Pacers, really are not suitable stock for Northern's congested commuter services. The narrow doors, at the extreme ends of a 23m carriage, together with the cramped vestibules, cause extended station dwell times as passengers struggle to get on and off. The spacious 2+2 seating layout leaves an unnecessarily high proportion of passengers standing.

Ideally these units should be used on the longer distance services for which they were designed.

But what do you class as " Longer " distance ?

 

[DarloRich]

It would actually help if they went ahead and ordered the 700s, so the 319 cascade plan can actually happen.

700's? The new Thamelsink trains?

But how do you propose to increase capacity in the meantime?

THe 319's will be fine after an internal makeover and an overhaul.

 

[BR Blue]

Stock cascades are better suited to the franchise rather than new is my opinion.

I fully agree. The question is, when will these rolling stock cascades happen?

The northern franchise ends in early 2014. It will be interesting to see what happens beyond this.

 

[Wath Yard]

The cascades are likely to happen as planned. The additional Class 377 order for Southern is to release stock to cascade to the north west. If the Thameslink procurement is delayed further then the additional 116 (or 216 if the option is taken) carriages will also most likely be ordered to enable further cascades.

Northern's end date is irrelevant. They are not planning or executing the cascade and don't specify what stock they use, the DfT does and will contunue to unless the new franchise is devolved to the PTEs, in which case they will.

 

[tom1649]

Was it some of these which were re-painted back into their old green livery, as I used to see some units painted as such running from the low-numbered terminal platforms at Manchester Piccadilly around that time ?

Just one unit, 101685, was repainted into the old green livery in 1994. It was actually still a 3 car unit when it was repainted, but was reduced to 2 after a few years.

There were also some Strathclyde orange units running around Manchester after they were withdrawn by Scotrail in 2000, and an experimental blue liveried example (101692) was also transferred.

Finally there was also unit L840, another Longsight based unit which was in Network South East livery complete with declassified first class at one end.

The ride was often 'lively' but more comfortable than the Pacers which replaced them. Each unit had its own character too which I liked.

 

[Surreyman]

156s, although preferable to Pacers, really are not suitable stock for Northern's congested commuter services. The narrow doors, at the extreme ends of a 23m carriage, together with the cramped vestibules, cause extended station dwell times as passengers struggle to get on and off. The spacious 2+2 seating layout leaves an unnecessarily high proportion of passengers standing.

Ideally these units should be used on the longer distance services for which they were designed.

I thought the problem(if that is what it is?) was that Northern diagrams it fleet of DMUs in such a way, that long/middle/short distance routes are 'mixed in together', the usual complaint being along the lines of 'Pacers wouldn't be so bad, if only they were kept to short distance routes'
Guess you can't have it both ways!

 

[tbtc]

I thought the problem(if that is what it is?) was that Northern diagrams it fleet of DMUs in such a way, that long/middle/short distance routes are 'mixed in together', the usual complaint being along the lines of 'Pacers wouldn't be so bad, if only they were kept to short distance routes'
Guess you can't have it both ways!

That's a lot of the problem - the mixture of diagrams and the joining together of routes may be good for staffing rotas, but means that there's no "best" type of unit for some services.

For example the Scunthorpe - Lincoln - Adwick service. You could justify a 156 for the Sheffield - Lincoln part (where it's effectively the only train on the line, low population at the eastern end of the route so relatively infrequent stops, some longer distance passengers). BUT the Sheffield - Doncaster section sees the train providing a local stopping service (Mexborough etc) on a line where longer distance passengers have the choice of Voyager/ 185/ 170/ 158, so a Pacer makes sense. Nobody in their right mind is going to use this slow service all the way from Scunthorpe to Sheffield when there's a much faster TPE 170/ 185 every hour, so a longer distance train would be wasted.

Same goes for the Manchester - Bradford Selby - Bradford - Wakefield - Bradford - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester "Grand Tour" - a 153 is okay for the quiet Huddersfield - Wakefield part, a Pacer might be okay for the Leeds - Selby part (where there are faster TPE 170/ 185s for longer distance passengers) but on the Bradford - Manchester part this is the fast train taking people between cities and a 158 would be more appropriate.

So you end up with Pacers on the Manchester end of the circuit at the same time that emptyish 158s are trundling along to Wakefield... that's the kind of thing that Northern are starting to sort out (with the December 2012 timetable changes), but plenty of examples remain where a DMU on one route interworks with another one. But untying the knot of interworking would probably require more units...

 

[The Ham]

700's? The new Thamelsink trains?

But how do you propose to increase capacity in the meantime?

THe 319's will be fine after an internal makeover and an overhaul.

the 700's are the new Thameslink trains.

In the next few years TPE will be starting to get 10 class 350's for their services once the electrification of Liverpool/Blackpool to Manchester and on to York is completed enough for them to start running services, which should free up some DMU's for use elsewhere.

 

[IanXC]

In the next few years TPE will be starting to get 10 class 350's for their services once the electrification of Liverpool/Blackpool to Manchester and on to York is completed enough for them to start running services, which should free up some DMU's for use elsewhere.

The 350s are for Manchester-Scotland following with the completion of electrification via Wigan under the North West Electrification programme. As far as I know there has not been an announcement of any EMU stock for other Transpennine Routes.

 

[wilsontown]

I imagine TPE will want those displaced DMUs to strengthen their own services, which in the core section between Leeds and Manchester are often full and standing all day. That's not going to help Northern or their passengers too much.

 

[northwichcat]

I imagine TPE will want those displaced DMUs to strengthen their own services, which in the core section between Leeds and Manchester are often full and standing all day. That's not going to help Northern or their passengers too much.

TPE have published a proposed timetable to use those released 185s to replace the Newcastle-Manchester Airport with 2 hourly services: Newcastle-Liverpool via Chat Moss and York-Manchester Airport.

 

[junglejames]

But the way some people talk on here it's as though Northern not giving out TLC is someone else's problem. It's not - it's Northerns.

And as for the point at the top of the page; London gets all the investment, Scotland seems to get all the re-opened lines. The North? It gets reduced to sprucing up an already well served Manchester. We have a poverty of service up here, and our main TOC isn't helping.

But why are Northerns units not receiving the TLC they deserve? Could it by any chance be down to trying to provide more seats for all the extra passengers which they were told wouldnt appear? You seem to think Northern can all of a sudden run extra trains, with the same stock, and still do the same maintenance on them. I expect if Northern had to run every unit 24/7, leaving absolutely no time for maintenance, you'd still complain about lack of maintenance.

Anyway, how about an outsider, who enjoys his trips in Northern land, describes what he finds.

I find reasonable prices, with comfortable trains, if not a little dirty at times. Peak trains are often very busy, but no more so than down here in Kent. You do have those all singing all dancing 185s next door, but I actually prefer to stick to Northern services, as the trains are so much more comfortable, and not usually as crowded.
I find staff that are usually quite friendly and courteous, and an overall quite pleasant experience. If im after a pleasant few days just travelling around for the sake of it, I either head to Northern Land, or Scotland.
Yes trains could be slightly cleaner, but i understand that Northern have a difficult job.

Now onto this complaining about the South East receiving all the new trains. It sort of goes in cycles. When trains are getting old, then they are replaced. This happened up North with 175s and 333s appearing, and more recently the 185s, to allow 158s to be cascaded.
It just so happened that whilst up North you had been maintaining a youngish fleet, replacing trains as they got old, down here in Southern Land, our trains, as fantastic as they were, were going beyond old. They were hitting 50yrs old, and it wasnt just one or two trains. It was hundreds of them. So we needed to replace them. Exactly what you had been doing up North. There was no difference, except for the numbers of trains that needed replacing.

Now it could be said that Thameslink doesnt need a fleet of brand new trains, but it does need extra trains. So whats the best solution? Order a fleet of EMUs, and give half to Northern and half to Thameslink, leaving Thameslink with 3 types of EMU? Or give Thameslink the whole fleet, and cascade the 319s to Northern? Id say the 2nd option is the best. So what if the 319s are slightly older. They are very good units, and its not right to scrap them, just because they arent brand new.