Northern Rail Staff To Strike ?

[sheff'd victoria]

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=173524&int1stParentNodeID=89732

Rail union RMT said today that it will begin balloting all members on Northern Rail next week for strike action in a dispute over the casualisation of core rail work in a bid by the company to undermine job security, pay and working conditions.

Despite repeated protests from RMT, Northern Rail management continue to use agency and sub-contracted labour for core railway work. Agency staff and other companies are carrying out roles within Northern Rail which should be carried out by RMT members employed directly within the company. RMT has made it clear that the situation is completely unacceptable, and breaches agreements and working practices, but the company have pressed on regardless, forcing both the dispute and the strike ballot.

Despite a number of long and protracted meetings with RMT union representatives aimed at reaching a solution, the company has completely failed to resolve the core issues at the heart of the dispute:

•Casualisation and Breach of our Agreements
•The use of Trainpeople.co.uk and G4S Securtiy

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

There is a cynical drive to use casual, agency staff to undermine job security, pay and working conditions on Northern Rail and our members are furious that not only have the company refused to stop this practice but they are driving it forwards.

RMT has made it crystal clear that casualisation and a breach of our agreements are an outright attack on all of us and will not be accepted in any way, shape or form. This union will not allow Northern management to carry on with these practices which are divisive, exploitative and solely about maximising profits.

With talks going nowhere the only way our members can show their determination to stop agency and sub-contractors Trainpeople.co.uk and G4S Security from carrying out core railway work is by voting YES in the ballot for strike action.

RMT is demanding an immediate end to Northern Rail casualising the workforce. If there is work that needs doing, it should be done by permanently employed staff on decent pay and conditions and not by an exploited, short-term workforce paid a pittance and denied the most basic of workplace benefits. The ballot will open next week and will close on Monday 20th May 2013. RMT remains available for meaningful talks.

Ironically looking at the comments on twitter from Northern Rail passgengers on the news, they seem to be delighted they will have a train free day

 

[Simon11]

I wish RMT would provide information to their members to support their strike which is factual. I personally see this as a way to reduce the cost of running the northern franchise which costs 7.3p per passenger km, rather than increasing northern's bottom line.

I do however agree that agency staff are never going to be as good as existing staff who are trained and have experience in their role.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How long does the current G4S contract with Northern Rail have to run ? If the contract is between Northern Rail and G4S, how would the courts view a third-party (RMT) attempt to abrogate the terms of the existing contract, should this matter be brought before them.

 

[northwichcat]

How long does the current G4S contract with Northern Rail have to run ?

Revenue protection looks to be ending 1st September 2013 unless it's been extended. September 2013 would have the date the Northern franchise ended before the 2 franchise extensions were awarded.
http://www.tendersjournal.com/community/g4s-wins-northern-rail-contract/

They've also got a second contract for services including "cash in transit, cash processing, bulk cash delivery and cash collection from ticket vending and car-park machines."
http://www.g4s.com/en-GB/United Kingdom/Media Centre/News/2012/01/10/Northern Rail selects G4S/

Northern's response to the above is the agency staff are additional to the Northern employees not replacements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the contract is between Northern Rail and G4S, how would the courts view a third-party (RMT) attempt to abrogate the terms of the existing contract, should this matter be brought before them.

Unless mutual termination could be agreed then I imagine Northern could have to pay G4S for the entire contract value even if they stop using them before the end date, meaning they won't free up funds to employ people directly to do the same roles before the contract expiry date.

 

[Andrewlong]

If Northern Rail want to use 3rd parties and short term workers to meet their objectives they have every right to - this is the way of the world. Seems like a feeble excuse for a strike.

 

[12CSVT]

The use of G4S in the Manchester area has been happening for several years, so can hardly be described as short term.

Given that G4S aren't exactly the most passenger friendly organisation (as seen by countless threads in the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' forum), it is unlikely that they have much respect for their staff either.

 

[Howardh]

Personally speaking, I'd like everyone who deals with me on the railway, whether it be ticketing, collecting, serving coffee on the train etc actually be employed by the railway rather than an agent working for it.

Dunno why, maybe it's because if there's ever a dispute I'm dealing directly with the company rather than through a third party? Also if I get to the station and there is someone with a G4S badge on rather than Northern/British Rail; if I asked "is this ticket valid for that train?" I'm not so sure I'd get the right answer. probably would, maybe they are well trained for their duties (they should be) but there's a nagging doubt.
Anyone else feel like this?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you want to see another transportation sector with outsourced staff, look at how many such staff are employed at airports in Britain.

 

[notadriver]

If Northern Rail want to use 3rd parties and short term workers to meet their objectives they have every right to - this is the way of the world. Seems like a feeble excuse for a strike.

So in theory you wouldn't mind someone with a few weeks training driving your train ?!!

 

[Goatboy]

So in theory you wouldn't mind someone with a few weeks training driving your train ?!!

This isn't happening though and never would, so its irrelevent.

And I wouldn't mind a fully qualified, experienced train driver who happens to work for an agency driving the train I was on, no.

In the same way that I don't worry when BA decides it needs to hire in pilots/equipment from a third party to operate a flight.

Hiring temporary staff or using agencies is common throughout industry. And it doesn't always have to mean 'inexperienced' either. There are plenty of greatly experienced staff who chose to work for agencies rather than be employed directly.

 

[northwichcat]

Dunno why, maybe it's because if there's ever a dispute I'm dealing directly with the company rather than through a third party? Also if I get to the station and there is someone with a G4S badge on rather than Northern/British Rail; if I asked "is this ticket valid for that train?" I'm not so sure I'd get the right answer. probably would, maybe they are well trained for their duties (they should be) but there's a nagging doubt.
Anyone else feel like this?

Whether it's a Northern Rail employee or someone working for another company on behalf of Northern if they give you incorrect information Northern are responsible.

Replacing G4S staff with Northern staff will not mean things never go wrong. Six examples without even thinking about it
1. A Northern ticket office employee saying to someone that YP railcards weren't available to 16 or 17 year olds and you had to be 18 to get one.
2. A few weeks back on here some posted about a Northern employee (not a G4S employee) accusing someone of having an invalid ticket because they had made a legitimate break in their journey.
3. Once when I asked for a ticket for a journey where a SDR was available but a CDR was not at a Northern ticket office at around 10am the ticket clerk declared the ticket machine as broken because it wouldn't give a CDR fare.
4. One Northern guard refused to give a zero excess to a passenger saying she should buy an additional ticket and then argued with the passenger for a few minutes resulting in lots of passengers not getting their tickets checked.
5. Another incident posted on here about an LM ticket clerk saying off-peak returns (old savers) can't be used before 09:30.
6. Two occasions where a Northern ticket clerk issued the wrong type of railcard discount.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the same way that I don't worry when BA decides it needs to hire in pilots/equipment from a third party to operate a flight.

Hiring temporary staff or using agencies is common throughout industry. And it doesn't always have to mean 'inexperienced' either. There are plenty of greatly experienced staff who chose to work for agencies rather than be employed directly.

When Jet2 were a fairly new brand they frequently got charter airlines to operate their services and put one Jet2 'representative' on board.

Doing something like that allows airlines to more easily run additional services during the busiest times of the year.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Whether it's a Northern Rail employee or someone working for another company on behalf of Northern if they give you incorrect information Northern are responsible.

Replacing G4S staff with Northern staff will not mean things never go wrong. Six examples without even thinking about it
1. A Northern ticket office employee saying to someone that YP railcards weren't available to 16 or 17 year olds and you had to be 18 to get one.
2. A few weeks back on here some posted about a Northern employee (not a G4S employee) accusing someone of having an invalid ticket because they had made a legitimate break in their journey.
3. Once when I asked for a ticket for a journey where a SDR was available but a CDR was not at a Northern ticket office at around 10am the ticket clerk declared the ticket machine as broken because it wouldn't give a CDR fare.
4. One Northern guard refused to give a zero excess to a passenger saying she should buy an additional ticket and then argued with the passenger for a few minutes resulting in lots of passengers not getting their tickets checked.
5. Another incident posted on here about an LM ticket clerk saying off-peak returns (old savers) can't be used before 09:30.
6. Two occasions where a Northern ticket clerk issued the wrong type of railcard discount.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


When Jet2 were a fairly new brand they frequently got charter airlines to operate their services and put one Jet2 'representative' on board.

Doing something like that allows airlines to more easily run additional services during the busiest times of the year.

I'm not going into the rights/wrongs, ins/outs as the same old arguments always happen causing tension in the forum but I will say this, from an employees point of view who has worked for Northern and previous operators is that ever since Heidi Mottram left the company relations between staff and UPPER tier management has deteriorated so badly i have never seen anything like it. G4s were originally employed as SECURITY, slowly but surely that changed into revenue. Its not as if they are picky over who they employ. Just read the stories about G4s on here! If you think you see problems staff like myself can guarantee we see more everyday. Only the other week some agency staff attempted to Ticket Check on a Picc service leaving out of Sheffield. Luckily the Guard asked him to leave which he did. Its the continuous eroding of our responsibilities and the serious lack of Morale and on top of that the blatant disregard for its staff from UPPER tier management that is the root cause (from a Guards point of view, other grades have different issues). This is just my opinion from the experience I have got from working for them. I know people will disagree but thats the way it is. I hope it does not go down to a strike but if it does this will be an ALL GRADES strike. I hope it does not get to that stage but its not looking good and I am sorry if people are inconvenienced.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not going into the rights/wrongs, ins/outs as the same old arguments always happen causing tension in the forum

What I was getting at is there seems to be a misconception among some people that replacing G4S with Northern staff would mean all mistakes would stop happening which won't happen, especially if Northern introduce a load of people new to the rail industry or employ the people dismissed by G4S as a result of the contract termination.

Northern seem to be very concerned about how many of their crew members are interested in the new roles TPE are making available ahead of the May 2014 timetable change. If that is the case I can see their recruitment drive focusing on the more important matter of replacement crew members and not employing more internal revenue protection staff which the RMT seem to be wanting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ironically looking at the comments on twitter from Northern Rail passgengers on the news, they seem to be delighted they will have a train free day

It doesn't seem to be a proposed joint strike with ASLEF members so it won't be a Northern Rail train free day if a strike is announced even if it means very few services operate.

Also the union doesn't have to say a 24 hour strike starting at midnight on a certain date. They could, for instance, announce a series of 6 hour strikes starting at 8pm on multiple days.

Maybe the people they asked use services where alternative options are available or maybe they are confused about which services Northern operate? Two different people today have both asked Northern via their Twitter feed about their London trains - when the person manning the feed said they don't run London trains the response given by one of them was that they sell tickets for London trains on their website so they must run them.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Plenty of RMT Drivers about at most depots and they would be part of any strike. ASLE&F and TSSA are also "supporting" the strike action (if it does happen) (what that actually means though I have no idea)

 

[Captain Chaos]

Plenty of RMT Drivers about at most depots and they would be part of any strike. ASLE&F and TSSA are also "supporting" the strike action (if it does happen) (what that actually means though I have no idea)

Probably work to rule on the day?

 

[Andrewlong]

Crowe and the RMT don't like the situation because there are non Northern Staff working who wouldn't end up joining his trade union and this would lessen his power base. I too don't believe this statement that only employees have dedication and training.

As a member of the travelling public, I care little for the employment of the person in the uniform as long as the standard of service is top notch!

 

[northwichcat]

Probably work to rule on the day?

Might be a bit difficult for some if you're a guard and there's no driver to take out the train.

Maybe just spend a couple of hours walking up and down an out-of-use train shouting "Tickets and passes please"?

 

[tbtc]

I do however agree that agency staff are never going to be as good as existing staff who are trained and have experience in their role.

Given that G4S aren't exactly the most passenger friendly organisation (as seen by countless threads in the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' forum), it is unlikely that they have much respect for their staff either.

Personally speaking, I'd like everyone who deals with me on the railway, whether it be ticketing, collecting, serving coffee on the train etc actually be employed by the railway rather than an agent working for it.

Dunno why, maybe it's because if there's ever a dispute I'm dealing directly with the company rather than through a third party? Also if I get to the station and there is someone with a G4S badge on rather than Northern/British Rail; if I asked "is this ticket valid for that train?" I'm not so sure I'd get the right answer. probably would, maybe they are well trained for their duties (they should be) but there's a nagging doubt.
Anyone else feel like this?

Given the number of "dispute" threads about EMT and EMT staff that we've had on the forum recently, the argument that we need "proper" railway staff to do a "proper" job seems a bit weak - there are problems with poorly trained/ unfriendly/ inconsistent staff employed directly by a TOC just as there are with those employed by a contractor.

Basically this seems to boil down to "staff no longer fit enough to work as Guards etc should have a gateline job as a consolation" (rather than using agency staff to do this role.

No point in arguing with the usual suspect though...

 

[michael769]

Plenty of RMT Drivers about at most depots and they would be part of any strike. ASLE&F and TSSA are also "supporting" the strike action (if it does happen) (what that actually means though I have no idea)

Supporting usualy translates to requesting that their members avoid (even inadvertantly) covering for striking staff.

Instructing their members to work to rule would require that they ballot first

 

[Harlesden]

If Northern Rail want to use 3rd parties and short term workers to meet their objectives they have every right to - this is the way of the world. Seems like a feeble excuse for a strike.

So what do you imagine the purpose of a union is - in any industry - other than to safeguard as far as possible the jobs and working conditions of its members; and to protect its members from instances of an employer breaching a previously signed agreement (agreement = contact).
If the employer refuses to negotiate and refuses to honor the previously signed agreements, the only option remaining is a withdrawal of labour.
I am only a passenger, but even I understand the reason and the basis for the threatened industrial action among Northern Rail staff

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably work to rule on the day?

I am sure that all the dedicated rail staff who are forum members always work to the clearly defined rules as defined in their rule book at all times. You cannot expect the rule book to be viewed as something of an ad hoc publication to cover certain situations only.

From other threads on this forum that cover the application of the Railway Byelaws, these too are also clearly set out for the rail staff to enforce without any need for query.

 

[michael769]

Work to rule means working strictly to the terms of ones contract of employment, for example refusing to do overtime, arriving and leaving on the dot, and not doing all those little "goodwill" tasks that are not technically part of your job description, but that make businesses run much more smoothly.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Oh dear. I think I have been taken out of context. Or I have used the wrong phrase? I meant not working overtime to cover turns. That sort of thing. Sorry for any confusion!

 

[notadriver]

Oh dear. I think I have been taken out of context. Or I have used the wrong phrase? I meant not working overtime to cover turns. That sort of thing. Sorry for any confusion!

Its more likely to work on the railways. They tried it on the buses a while back but for some reason it never worked

 

[pinguini]

Oh dear. I think I have been taken out of context. Or I have used the wrong phrase? I meant not working overtime to cover turns. That sort of thing. Sorry for any confusion!

I thought it was just Paul trying to be witty

 

[MacRae13]

As a member of the travelling public, I care little for the employment of the person in the uniform as long as the standard of service is top notch!

Ach well, as long as you're alright..........

Its more likely to work on the railways. They tried it on the buses a while back but for some reason it never worked

Not an industry thing. Our work to rule on the buses had the desired effect.

I am sure that all the dedicated rail staff who are forum members always work to the clearly defined rules as defined in their rule book at all times. You cannot expect the rule book to be viewed as something of an ad hoc publication to cover certain situations only.

From other threads on this forum that cover the application of the Railway Byelaws, these too are also clearly set out for the rail staff to enforce without any need for query.

I'm just not getting your sense of humour here, right? You're just joking?

 

[GB]

As a member of the travelling public, I care little for the employment of the person in the uniform as long as the standard of service is top notch!

Nice:roll:

Did it ever actually occur to you that an employees conditions directly correlate to the standard of service they give?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought it was just Paul trying to be witty

Which of course I was and made my posting very much tongue in cheek, as I assumed all of you dedicated rail staff would have realised...

Sometimes, it is hard to resist "a play on words" which can leave some matters open to my somewhat "quirky" sense of humour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm just not getting your sense of humour here, right? You're just joking?

Oh dear, yet another "play on words" bites the dust...

 

[notadriver]

Not an industry thing. Our work to rule on the buses had the desired effect.

What effect did it have and what did you get in return out of curiosity?

 

[455driver]

Which of course I was

Unlike a lot of posters on here who would mean it!