Northern rail Newcastle-Glasgow

[ATW Alex 101]

Just something that has been wondering me for years. The services from Newcastle to Glasgow are shown on project mapping as Soctrail but everywhere else as northern so I'd imagine its some sort of codeshare like FCC and SE.

My question is, are the trains Northern liveried 156 or a Scotrail/spt 156? I have searched the internet with no avail

 

[ainsworth74]

My question is, are the trains Northern liveried 156 or a Scotrail/spt 156? I have searched the internet with no avail

Scotrail provide the units so they're in Scotrail colours (though I imagine Northern units might occasionally appear).

 

[transmanche]

My question is, are the trains Northern liveried 156 or a Scotrail/spt 156? I have searched the internet with no avail

ScotRail liveried - here are a couple of ScotRail 156s at Newcastle.

 

[sprinterguy]

Scotrail provide the units so they're in Scotrail colours (though I imagine Northern units might occasionally appear).

I've never seen a Northern 156 deputise for an unavailable Scotrail unit on these services, although it would seem likely that it has happened at some point, particularly over the Newcastle to Carlisle stretch even if not continuing into Scotland.
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My question is, are the trains Northern liveried 156 or a Scotrail/spt 156? I have searched the internet with no avail

Traditionally, the Glasgow (And Girvan/Stranrear, as they once were) to Newcastle services have primarily used SPT liveried 156s - First in the original orange and black colour scheme and more recently in the later carmine and cream livery, with the occasional Scotrail liveried interloper. Now of course all the former SPT liveried 156s have been repainted into the Scottish saltire livery, so it is these units that can most frequently be found on the Glasgow to Newcastle services, although "barbie" liveried examples are no strangers to the route, either..

 

[davido39]

I was on a Scotland's Railway branded 156 on Thursday from Glasgow to Newcastle, must be one of the longest routes a Scotrail train travels, oops just remembered the Caledonian Sleeper belongs to Scotrail. To be honest I'd rather travel on a Scotrail 156 than a Northern one, having traveled on them both I'd say the Scotrail Units are by far more smoother.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I was on a Scotland's Railway branded 156 on Thursday from Glasgow to Newcastle, must be one of the longest routes a Scotrail train travels, oops just remembered the Caledonian Sleeper belongs to Scotrail.

At "only" ~ 3h50m it's certainly not their longest. Glasgow Queen Street to Mallaig is ~ 5h20m on a 156. Inverness to Wick is as long as 4h30 depending on the departure.

 

[yorkie]

I have searched the internet with no avail

That surprises me. What did you search for?

A search for Glasgow Newcastle Scotrail Northern on Google brings up this forum as the second result, this crops up frequently so there are a variety of threads on the subject.

The most recent thread is here but there are many more threads.

The answer to your question was provided in March:

So is it usually a Scotrail 156 rather then a Northern one?

Yes in my experience its almost always a Scotrail train.

 

[transmanche]

That surprises me. What did you search for?

A search for Glasgow Newcastle Scotrail Northern on Google brings up this forum as the second result, this crops up frequently so there are a variety of threads on the subject.

And I just typed 'ScotRail 156 Newcastle' into Google's image search, to find the pics I linked above.

 

[marks87]

On occasion, I've seen a Northern unit being attached to a ScotRail one at Carlisle, bound for Newcastle.

 

[davido39]

At "only" ~ 3h50m it's certainly not their longest. Glasgow Queen Street to Mallaig is ~ 5h20m on a 156. Inverness to Wick is as long as 4h30 depending on the departure.

Sorry I meant out of Scotland. I think if you put average speed into the equation then yes Glasgow Oban/Mallaig would win hands down, if the Glasgow Oban/Mallaig had improved speed limits when it exits the North Clyde at Craigandorran then I think we'd be looking at a whole different ball game. I'ts only because the West Highland line has some very slow speed restrictions that the Journey - although very breathtaking - takes so long.

 

[ffm]

I completely agree about the travel environment in a Scotrail v a Northern 156. If I have an option I use the Glasgow/Newcastle train for my journey to Carlisle/Newcastle. Original (low back) seats, but always immaculately clean and this far more pleasant. Northern trains are, except a few 156s that seem to have had deep cleans and the truly dreadful bus seated ex-FGW 142s, the dirtiest trains I have the displeasure of using. I did travel London Liverpool St to Southend in a filthy 315 (one) and had thought how unlucky the Anglian passengers were to be getting Abellio - until that journey. I quickly realised that they would note no difference. Northern and one had similarly filthy trains, inside and out, so the same company in both areas would not mean a drop in standards!

I wish someone would start pointing out how awful Northern is, as a company that is, great staff. Old trains (please, oh please scrap the Pacers, I pay the same, or more, than the SE commuters, but they get refurbished 313s, 455s, recent and excellent 377s and 440/450s we suffer still) and filthy trains. The stock in Yorkshire and the North West seems cleaner, but still the Pacer is around there too. Why can't Heaton clean a train?? If you are reading this try speaking to Scotrail, they seem to know what water, detergent and some care can do.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Thanks for the replies.

Anything is better than some of the Northern 156's I've been on

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wish someone would start pointing out how awful Northern is, as a company that is, great staff. Old trains (please, oh please scrap the Pacers, I pay the same, or more, than the SE commuters, but they get refurbished 313s, 455s, recent and excellent 377s and 440/450s we suffer still) and filthy trains. The stock in Yorkshire and the North West seems cleaner, but still the Pacer is around there too. Why can't Heaton clean a train?? If you are reading this try speaking to Scotrail, they seem to know what water, detergent and some care can do.

Had you had seen the number of threads in 2011 on this forum that featured "Pacers" and "Northern and the no-growth franchise" (often inter-coupled), your knowledge on this matter would be at Masters Degree level by now.

 

[sprinterguy]

I completely agree about the travel environment in a Scotrail v a Northern 156. If I have an option I use the Glasgow/Newcastle train for my journey to Carlisle/Newcastle. Original (low back) seats, but always immaculately clean and this far more pleasant. Northern trains are, except a few 156s that seem to have had deep cleans and the truly dreadful bus seated ex-FGW 142s, the dirtiest trains I have the displeasure of using. I did travel London Liverpool St to Southend in a filthy 315 (one) and had thought how unlucky the Anglian passengers were to be getting Abellio - until that journey. I quickly realised that they would note no difference. Northern and one had similarly filthy trains, inside and out, so the same company in both areas would not mean a drop in standards!

I wish someone would start pointing out how awful Northern is, as a company that is, great staff. Old trains (please, oh please scrap the Pacers, I pay the same, or more, than the SE commuters, but they get refurbished 313s, 455s, recent and excellent 377s and 440/450s we suffer still) and filthy trains. The stock in Yorkshire and the North West seems cleaner, but still the Pacer is around there too. Why can't Heaton clean a train?? If you are reading this try speaking to Scotrail, they seem to know what water, detergent and some care can do.

I've felt for many years now that Heaton depot do a better job of maintaining their local train fleet than do Neville Hill or Newton Heath. One of the principal benefits of being able to concentrate labour over a smaller rolling stock allocation of only two types working a fairly simple, largely self-contained set of routes.

In terms of interior design and passenger comfort, I think that the high back seating fitted to the ex-Northern Spirit 156s is the best interior to grace a 156, with the original low-back Ashbourne seating, as fitted to the Scotrail units, coming second. It is a shame though to see how scruffy the interiors of many of Northern's 156s have become when compared to the cleanliness of the Scotrail units.

 

[SGS]

On Northern's 156s, what is that blue/green cloth thing that runs along the underside of the luggage racks!? They're revolting - I imagine that if I touched it, goo would ooze out of it.

Someone should really go over Northern's surfaces with a damp cloth. I don't know what Kim and Aggie would make of the 156s.

 

[ffm]

I've felt for many years now that Heaton depot do a better job of maintaining their local train fleet than do Neville Hill or Newton Heath. One of the principal benefits of being able to concentrate labour over a smaller rolling stock allocation of only two types working a fairly simple, largely self-contained set of routes.

In terms of interior design and passenger comfort, I think that the high back seating fitted to the ex-Northern Spirit 156s is the best interior to grace a 156, with the original low-back Ashbourne seating, as fitted to the Scotrail units, coming second. It is a shame though to see how scruffy the interiors of many of Northern's 156s have become when compared to the cleanliness of the Scotrail units.

Rather a contradiction there! Scruffy interiors yet better job of maintenance? I have seen Northern unit sin other areas appearingt o be much cleaner. When passing through York the units always look clean, which can rarely be said of Heaton's. You are quite right about the high back seating versus the original though. I have been on a few (very few...) deep cleaned North East based Northern 156s recently, where it was a pleasure. Shame they are so very rare. A Settle-Carlisle liveried one found itself on Newcastle-Carlisle the other week, presumably Neville Hill's, which was nice and clean.

I agree about that turquoise felt on the bottom of the luggage racks, generally disgusting.

 

[Anvil1984]

Rather a contradiction there! Scruffy interiors yet better job of maintenance? I have seen Northern unit sin other areas appearingt o be much cleaner. When passing through York the units always look clean, which can rarely be said of Heaton's. You are quite right about the high back seating versus the original though. I have been on a few (very few...) deep cleaned North East based Northern 156s recently, where it was a pleasure. Shame they are so very rare. A Settle-Carlisle liveried one found itself on Newcastle-Carlisle the other week, presumably Neville Hill's, which was nice and clean.

I agree about that turquoise felt on the bottom of the luggage racks, generally disgusting.

Neville Hill has not had 156s in years, they are split between the new depot at Allerton (after reallocation from Newton Heath) and Heaton

 

[Stephen55a1960]

Just something that has been wondering me for years. The services from Newcastle to Glasgow are shown on project mapping as Soctrail but everywhere else as northern so I'd imagine its some sort of codeshare like FCC and SE.

My question is, are the trains Northern liveried 156 or a Scotrail/spt 156? I have searched the internet with no avail

Scotrail liveried Class 156's on my last trip on that route (Christmas 2011).
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I was on a Scotland's Railway branded 156 on Thursday from Glasgow to Newcastle, must be one of the longest routes a Scotrail train travels, oops just remembered the Caledonian Sleeper belongs to Scotrail. To be honest I'd rather travel on a Scotrail 156 than a Northern one, having traveled on them both I'd say the Scotrail Units are by far more smoother.

Slightly off topic; but I'm surprised it doesn't have a trolley service, for that route?

 

[SC318250]

I've never seen a Northern 156 deputise for an unavailable Scotrail unit on these services, although it would seem likely that it has happened at some point, particularly over the Newcastle to Carlisle stretch even if not continuing into Scotland.

I has happened a number of times that a Northern 156 has turned up in Glasgow Central on a Scotrail service

Should the Scotrail 156 fail at Newcastle then Northern usually send one of theirs on the Newcastle to Glasgow Central service, and once the Scotrail one is fixed it will operate in the Newcastle area, until the Northern one returns back to Newcastle, which is usually the next service.

Other times it has happened is if there is a problem en route from Newcastle to Carlisle and the Scotrail train is delayed, then if there is a Northern 156 at Carlisle, then the service to Glasgow Central will be started on time at Carlisle rather than waiting for the delayed service to arrive.

As to why Scotrail 156s are usually pretty clean is that First Group get heavily fined if surveys come back saying trains are dirty.

 

[davido39]

I was wondering why most Scotrail trains are clean. If it was left to First, just think how bad the trains would be. If they cannot look after their bus fleet around Greater Glasgow and outlying area's, I can't imagine First taking any notice of their Scottish rail franchise!

I do think the maintenance of the trains up here in Scotlandshire is much better than Northern although some 156's are now struggling the climb between Barrhead and Lugton, been on a few that really struggle but then again been on a few 156's that have taken the incline with ease!

 

[sprinterguy]

Rather a contradiction there! Scruffy interiors yet better job of maintenance? I have seen Northern unit sin other areas appearingt o be much cleaner. When passing through York the units always look clean, which can rarely be said of Heaton's.

A lot of Northern units appear to be quite scruffy, the 150s on the West side of the Pennines in particular, so Heatons' 156s compare reasonably well against the rest of the Northern fleet. Plus I was also speaking with a historical context, taking into account the last 15 - 20 years or so. Heaton based Pacers generally seemed better cared for than the Neville Hill based ones back in Regional Railways/Northern Spirit days.

A Settle-Carlisle liveried one found itself on Newcastle-Carlisle the other week, presumably Neville Hill's, which was nice and clean.

That's 156484, a Heaton unit. As Anvil1984 says, the 156s are now allocated to either Heaton or Allerton (Previously Newton Heath).

 

[davido39]

Regarding the length of the Glasgow Newcastle service would it not be better served by a class 158 unit or even dare I say a class 170? The latter being wholly unlikely!

 

[ainsworth74]

Regarding the length of the Glasgow Newcastle service would it not be better served by a class 158 unit or even dare I say a class 170? The latter being wholly unlikely!

Northern's Heaton based crews do not sign those pieces of rolling stock. Therefore you'd have to a) get Scotrail crews to sign all the way to Newcastle, b) get Northern to sign 158/170s (and they won't pay for it so Scotrail will have to pick up the tab for that), or c) terminate the service at Carlisle.

 

[Anvil1984]

This came up less just over a month ago

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71628&page=2

In a nutshell 158s are only cleared for ECS moves on the route north of Carlisle, Newcastle Northern and Dumfries Scotrail don't sign them (Carlisle Northern does however)

 

[davido39]

That explains it, thanks for the replies so we will see 156's for the foreseeable future then.

 

[Geeves]

Slightly related...

Heres a shot originally posted by 'Sean' over on the Northern rail forum

http://www.atomic-album.co.uk/showPic.php/226634/DSCN2008.JPG

142089 hitching a ride on the back of the Scotrail 156 as far as Carlisle.

Theoretically a 158 could at least work the Newcastle to Carlisle section. A York man would have to bring it to Newcastle and Carlisle man could take it across the tops?

 

[northernrailer]

I have seen a Strathclyde (Orange and Black) class 156 arrive Carlisle from Newcastle with a class 153 on the back of it. The class 153 detatched at Carlisle and sat spare.

 

[sprinterguy]

Slightly related...

Heres a shot originally posted by 'Sean' over on the Northern rail forum

http://www.atomic-album.co.uk/showPic.php/226634/DSCN2008.JPG

142089 hitching a ride on the back of the Scotrail 156 as far as Carlisle.

Well there's an eye opener (Ditto for northernrailer's observations), for me at any rate. I've seen the Scotrail 156s coupled up to North East units on ECS moves at Newcastle and Carlisle (The Heaton - Newcastle ECS for the early morning Glasgow service used to be with a 3-car TPE 158), but never with a local NE unit attached while in passenger service.

 

[Mikey1984]

I was wondering why most Scotrail trains are clean. If it was left to First, just think how bad the trains would be. If they cannot look after their bus fleet around Greater Glasgow and outlying area's, I can't imagine First taking any notice of their Scottish rail franchise!

I do think the maintenance of the trains up here in Scotlandshire is much better than Northern although some 156's are now struggling the climb between Barrhead and Lugton, been on a few that really struggle but then again been on a few 156's that have taken the incline with ease!

Out of interest does anyone know what gradient that climb is, as it seems quite steep

 

[tbtc]

The stock in Yorkshire and the North West seems cleaner, but still the Pacer is around there too. Why can't Heaton clean a train??

The Pacers in South Yorkshire are looked after at Heaton (which means a pretty long ECS!)