Northern Rail Fine - Train passes through station but doesn't stop there

[dogma]

My 16 year old son is at college in Rochdale. He gets a Northern Rail train every morning from Walsden to Rochdale and back home again in the evening.

The train runs once an hour but there are trains that run more frequently (every 20 mins) between Rochdale and Todmorden (Todmorden is the next stop along from Walsden - about a mile further on from Walsden). These trains pass through Walsden station but don't stop there - over the last few years they've been reducing the number of trains that stop in Walsden.

There were Northern Rail revenue inspectors at Todmorden and he'd got off at Todmorden as he'd ending up getting on the train from Rochdale that doesn't stop in Walsden. They've fined him £3 + £50 as he didn't have a ticket that covered him for the entire journey - his ticket stated only Rochdale to Walsden.

We are in a tricky situation as the train service between Walsden and Rochdale (and back) is flaky at best. Often delayed, often cancelled and if there are problems with that once an hour train, he has to wait another hour for the next one (assuming that's not also got problems). There are also situations where it's not 100% clear he's on the correct train due to these delays and cancellations so its stressing him out. This conversation with a revenue inspector hasn't helped that as they weren't understanding at all.

I can see someone else has posted about a reduction of stops and issues with Walsden here:

Smaller stations getting forgotten in times of disruption: should larger/better served stations be skipped instead?

I have recently been disgusted by the treating of smaller stations in times of disruption. On the Calder Valley line, operated by Northern, one such station, Walsden, normally has one train per hour, served by the stopping service from Wigan to Leeds via Brighouse (although regularly on...

www.railforums.co.uk

We are considering appealing the fine.

When the number of trains that stopped in Walsden was reduced, Northern had indicated that tickets for Walsden would be covered to Todmorden (although annoyingly I'm struggling to find that documented anywhere now).

Has anyone appealed something similar and won?

Also, even if he started buying return tickets from Todmorden to Rochdale to prevent such issues again, I'm assuming if he got off in Walsden then technically he's still liable for a fine too as he got off one step early?

 

[ainsworth74]

The train runs once an hour but there are trains that run more frequently (every 20 mins) between Rochdale and Todmorden (Todmorden is the next stop along from Walsden - about a mile further on from Walsden). These trains pass through Walsden station but don't stop there - over the last few years they've been reducing the number of trains that stop in Walsden.

There were Northern Rail revenue inspectors at Todmorden and he'd got off at Todmorden as he'd ending up getting on the train from Rochdale that doesn't stop in Walsden. They've fined him £3 + £50 as he didn't have a ticket that covered him for the entire journey - his ticket stated only Rochdale to Walsden.

We are in a tricky situation as the train service between Walsden and Rochdale (and back) is flaky at best. Often delayed, often cancelled and if there are problems with that once an hour train, he has to wait another hour for the next one (assuming that's not also got problems). There are also situations where it's not 100% clear he's on the correct train due to these delays and cancellations so its stressing him out. This conversation with a revenue inspector hasn't helped that as they weren't understanding at all.

Why was he on a train to Todmorden rather than Walsden? I think that's the first question. Was his train cancelled (or had stops removed)? On it's face it looks like he was trying to short-fare by paying for a station before the one he actually meant to get off at (not that I think he was, just what it appears to be from the railway's point of view!). So why was he on the wrong train?

We are considering appealing the fine.

It's always worth appealing if for no other reason than an appeal can block a criminal prosecution.

Northern had indicated that tickets for Walsden would be covered to Todmorden (although annoyingly I'm struggling to find that documented anywhere now)

If you can find this (or if anyone else is aware of it) this could be extremely useful to have sight of and could form the basis of a strong appeal.

I'm assuming if he got off in Walsden then technically he's still liable for a fine too as he got off one step early?

As long as he wasn't travelling using a booked train only ticket (known as an Advance Purchase ticket) then he is almost certainly within his rights to get off a stop early. It looks like the only fares between Todmorden and Rochdale are flexible tickets (Anytime Day and Off-Peak Day singles/returns) and neither type of ticket on this journey appears to have any restriction on what is known as a break of journey. So he could get off in Walsden perfectly legitimately. Indeed he could get off in Walsden and then board a service later on from Walsden to Todmorden if he wanted to using the same ticket. Note that tickets are often sold with an itinerary (and e-tickets often put the itinerary on the ticket) but those are optional when using an Anytime or Off-Peak ticket and any train can be used as long as any time restrictions are obeyed (in this case the Off-Peak is only valid after 0930).

 

[thejuggler]

Getting off early on an anytime or off peak ticket isn't a problem.

 

[Haywain]

We are in a tricky situation as the train service between Walsden and Rochdale (and back) is flaky at best. Often delayed, often cancelled and if there are problems with that once an hour train, he has to wait another hour for the next one (assuming that's not also got problems). There are also situations where it's not 100% clear he's on the correct train due to these delays and cancellations so its stressing him out. This conversation with a revenue inspector hasn't helped that as they weren't understanding at all.

I can see someone else has posted about a reduction of stops and issues with Walsden here:

This is a side issue and will not affect whether the Penalty Fare Notice was correctly issued.

 

[Cuthbert]

Can you post the Penalty Fare up on the forums please?
Remove all personal info and Ref number.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting off early on an anytime or off peak ticket isn't a problem.

For completeness this applies to most but not all Off Peak tickets. In this case it's fine, but there are cases where it isn't. Check the restriction code to ensure there's no break of journey restriction (mostly only on the outward portion, hardly any have a restriction on the return, and arguably the ticket T&C don't allow a return restriction), there are cases where there is and where it's enforced, e.g. Preston with tickets to Lancaster as the latter have less stringent restrictions.

 

[dogma]

My 16 year old son is at college in Rochdale. He gets a Northern Rail train every morning from Walsden to Rochdale and back home again in the evening.

The train runs once an hour but there are trains that run more frequently (every 20 mins) between Rochdale and Todmorden (Todmorden is the next stop along from Walsden - about a mile further on from Walsden). These trains pass through Walsden station but don't stop there - over the last few years they've been reducing the number of trains that stop in Walsden.

There were Northern Rail revenue inspectors at Todmorden and he'd got off at Todmorden as he'd ending up getting on the train from Rochdale that doesn't stop in Walsden. They've fined him £3 + £50 as he didn't have a ticket that covered him for the entire journey - his ticket stated only Rochdale to Walsden.

We are in a tricky situation as the train service between Walsden and Rochdale (and back) is flaky at best. Often delayed, often cancelled and if there are problems with that once an hour train, he has to wait another hour for the next one (assuming that's not also got problems). There are also situations where it's not 100% clear he's on the correct train due to these delays and cancellations so its stressing him out. This conversation with a revenue inspector hasn't helped that as they weren't understanding at all.

I can see someone else has posted about a reduction of stops and issues with Walsden here:

Smaller stations getting forgotten in times of disruption: should larger/better served stations be skipped instead?

I have recently been disgusted by the treating of smaller stations in times of disruption. On the Calder Valley line, operated by Northern, one such station, Walsden, normally has one train per hour, served by the stopping service from Wigan to Leeds via Brighouse (although regularly on...

www.railforums.co.uk

We are considering appealing the fine.

When the number of trains that stopped in Walsden was reduced, Northern had indicated that tickets for Walsden would be covered to Todmorden (although annoyingly I'm struggling to find that documented anywhere now).

Has anyone appealed something similar and won?

Also, even if he started buying return tickets from Todmorden to Rochdale to prevent such issues again, I'm assuming if he got off in Walsden then technically he's still liable for a fine too as he got off one step early?

Can you post the Penalty Fare up on the forums please?
Remove all personal info and Ref number.

Here it is. He had a ticket that covered Rochdale to Walsden. Not Rochdale to Todmorden. He ended up on the train that didn't stop at Walsden (although the train does pass through the station).

 

[SuspectUsual]

There are also situations where it's not 100% clear he's on the correct train due to these delays and cancellations so its stressing him out

I'm a bit dubious about this, to be honest. I've commuted from Hebden Bridge / Todmorden / Littleborough into Manchester for the last 11 years and I've never found the displays to show information for the incorrect train. (Yes, there are times when they're not working at all)

 

[Gloster]

It looks to me as though he has travelled beyond the validity of the ticket: Todmorden is the station beyond Walsden, the station to which he had a ticket from Rochdale. Is this correct?

If so, was he attempting to leave the station at Todmorden? Or was he just trying to get a train back to Walkden from Todmorden? If the latter, was this due to accidently getting on the wrong train at Rochdale or because he thought it would be quicker than waiting at Rochdale for the next train that would stop at Walsden?

I think that the last sentence of #1 is the OP’s question about possible future action and should be kept separate.

I am not an expert.

 

[AlterEgo]

Here it is. He had a ticket that covered Rochdale to Walsden. Not Rochdale to Todmorden. He ended up on the train that didn't stop at Walsden (although the train does pass through the station).

We need to see the whole notice - the entire thing. There are many ways for a notice to be invalid. Of course you should still remove his name.

Just to check, he was:

- Going from Rochdale TO Todmorden
- Only had a ticket from Rochdale TO Walsden
- Was stopped AT Tormorden having gone beyond the validity of his ticket?

There is no published easement which allows double backing at Todmorden. Was he trying to exit there, or trying to get another train back to Walsden?

 

[tram21]

Unless there are any mitigating factors, like the train to Walsden being cancelled or there being a reason why he accidentally boarded the wrong train (due to the platform displays not working etc.), I can't see how this can appealed, as without a good reason why would he travel to Todmorden on this ticket when he bought to Walsden?

If it was cancelled and he needed to be picked up from Todmorden then I can see an appeal being considered.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To have got to Todmorden for around 1630 on 30JAN2025, as per the PF Notice, the OP's son most likely boarded the 1613 Northern departure from Rochdale (for Leeds), where the next stop is indeed Todmorden.

The immediately following 1617 Northern departure (for Blackburn) which calls at a number of intermediate stations including Walsden, was running and would have resulted in a 1633 arrival at Walsden.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 1613 from Rochdale to Leeds was 2 minutes late and departed at 1615: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W46141/2025-01-30#allox_id=0

The train for Walsden was the following 1617 from Rochdale to Blackburn, which also departed Rochdale 2 minutes late: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G32645/2025-01-30#allox_id=0

Save screenshots of these services (Real Time Trains only goes back seven days). Both trains left from the same platform at Rochdale.

So the question will be: where was he stopped? Was he trying to leave the station? Does he have a reason for that (I do also note the next train back to Walsden was at 1721 and you could easily walk it in about 15 minutes)?

I would say that, in this case, there is cause to appeal on the basis that he boarded the 1613 train at 1615 thinking it was the 1617 train. I don't think you will get far on the first appeal but maybe you might on the second or third.

If he is regularly travelling to college then a Todmorden to Rochdale season ticket may be a better bet.

 

[SuspectUsual]

RPOs at Tod tend to stand at the top of the stairs when checking eastbound trains, so a passenger would have to pass them whether they were leaving the station or crossing to the other platform

 

[dogma]

The 1613 from Rochdale to Leeds was 2 minutes late and departed at 1615: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W46141/2025-01-30#allox_id=0

The train for Walsden was the following 1617 from Rochdale to Blackburn, which also departed Rochdale 2 minutes late: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G32645/2025-01-30#allox_id=0

Save screenshots of these services (Real Time Trains only goes back seven days). Both trains left from the same platform at Rochdale.

So the question will be: where was he stopped? Was he trying to leave the station? Does he have a reason for that (I do also note the next train back to Walsden was at 1721 and you could easily walk it in about 15 minutes)?

I would say that, in this case, there is cause to appeal on the basis that he boarded the 1613 train at 1615 thinking it was the 1617 train. I don't think you will get far on the first appeal but maybe you might on the second or third.

If he is regularly travelling to college then a Todmorden to Rochdale season ticket may be a better bet.

Thank you for this helpful post (and everyone else that's posted).

He's 16 and finding his feet commuting to and from college. He didn't deliberately try to defraud Northern Rail. He's just trying to navigate a train service that is unreliable.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

BTW, is the amount of the unpaid fare supposedly due (= £3.20) correct, if on a service that hadn't actually called at Walsden?

 

[ainsworth74]

If he is regularly travelling to college then a Todmorden to Rochdale season ticket may be a better bet.

As he's 16 he should also get a 16-17 Saver which gives him 50% off fares including season tickets.

It might also be worth considering just getting a Todmorden - Rochdale season ticket as the price difference (with a 16-17 Saver) for a weekly season is £2.25 so if he goes to Todmorden even once a week will basically pay for itself.

 

[tram21]

Thank you for this helpful post (and everyone else that's posted).

He's 16 and finding his feet commuting to and from college. He didn't deliberately try to defraud Northern Rail. He's just trying to navigate a train service that is unreliable.

If he unintentionally boarded the wrong train which left 2 minutes earlier than the one he wanted, then I'd say that an appeal is certainly justified and may go through, but it will probably need 3 attempts (there are 3 stages to the appeals process, and the majority you need to wait until the 3rd stage for them to overturn the penalty fare).

When appealing, make it clear what his intentions were when leaving the train at Todmorden. If you show that you live in Walsden then it may help too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

He's 16 and finding his feet commuting to and from college. He didn't deliberately try to defraud Northern Rail. He's just trying to navigate a train service that is unreliable.

You’ll probably need to get to the third stage before anyone properly looks at it.

I’d say keep the appeal straightforward. Explain that he boarded the wrong train because it was two minutes late and he thought it was his train. Explain if he had any interactions on board the train (I see the train was short formed so I’d expect it was snug and the guard will have been hiding in the back cab, but that’s by the by). Explain where he was stopped (IME it’s on the exit to the platform not the exit to the station). Explain what his intention was, e.g. was he going home, is your home closer to Walsden station, etc.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

BTW, is the amount of the unpaid fare supposedly due (= £3.20) correct, if on a service that hadn't actually called at Walsden?

Anyone have any thoughts on this? £3.20 is the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare from Walsden to Todmorden. The train (if it was indeed the 1613 from Rochdale that the OP's son was on) didn't stop at Walsden. Shouldn't the unpaid fare therefore have been £5.80, i.e. from Rochdale to Todmorden?

 

[Haywain]

Anyone have any thoughts on this? £3.20 is the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare from Walsden to Todmorden. The train (if it was indeed the 1613 from Rochdale that the OP's son was on) didn't stop at Walsden. Shouldn't the unpaid fare therefore have been £5.80, i.e. from Rochdale to Todmorden?

That may be the case but "I've been undercharged" doesn't look strong grounds for an appeal (as we've seen on another recent case).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That may be the case but "I've been undercharged" doesn't look strong grounds for an appeal (as we've seen on another recent case).

Isn't it a valid technicality that the PF has perhaps been incorrectly issued?

 

[AlterEgo]

Isn't it a valid technicality that the PF has perhaps been incorrectly issued?

Yes, but we are seeing assessors taking the view that the error was in the passenger's favour, and is not therefore a valid ground of appeal. To cut a long story short, they're tired of bull**** technical appeals where the mistake didn't cause harm to the passenger.

 

[yorkie]

Anyone have any thoughts on this? £3.20 is the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare from Walsden to Todmorden. The train (if it was indeed the 1613 from Rochdale that the OP's son was on) didn't stop at Walsden. Shouldn't the unpaid fare therefore have been £5.80, i.e. from Rochdale to Todmorden?

No; a valid ticket was held from Rochdale to Littlebrough, so the "correct" amount would be £5.30, not £5.80. However...

That may be the case but "I've been undercharged" doesn't look strong grounds for an appeal (as we've seen on another recent case).

...I agree.

If he unintentionally boarded the wrong train which left 2 minutes earlier than the one he wanted, then I'd say that an appeal is certainly justified and may go through, but it will probably need 3 attempts (there are 3 stages to the appeals process, and the majority you need to wait until the 3rd stage for them to overturn the penalty fare).

When appealing, make it clear what his intentions were when leaving the train at Todmorden. If you show that you live in Walsden then it may help too.

Thank you for this helpful post (and everyone else that's posted).

He's 16 and finding his feet commuting to and from college. He didn't deliberately try to defraud Northern Rail. He's just trying to navigate a train service that is unreliable.

Unfortunately, a Penalty Fare is a charge that companies such as Northern charge under certain circumstances to passengers who have made an honest mistake.

If they believed dishonesty was involved, they would instead prosecute (though probably not in the case of an under 18!)

I won't get into the morals, or whether this should be the policy (that can be debated elsewhere), but that is the situation as it is.

However, I would absolutely still appeal this, even though there is no entitlement for the PF to be cancelled, as Northern may relent, given the circumstances.

 

[RPI]

Generally speaking, if an error in the fare is in favour of the passenger, then it won't wash, if the error does not favour the passenger then it generally is acceptable grounds.

 

[dogma]

If he unintentionally boarded the wrong train which left 2 minutes earlier than the one he wanted, then I'd say that an appeal is certainly justified and may go through, but it will probably need 3 attempts (there are 3 stages to the appeals process, and the majority you need to wait until the 3rd stage for them to overturn the penalty fare).

When appealing, make it clear what his intentions were when leaving the train at Todmorden. If you show that you live in Walsden then it may help too.

Thanks everyone. I've submitted the appeal now.
Can someone help me understand the 3 stages to the appeals process and the approximate timescales involved?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can someone help me understand the 3 stages to the appeals process and the approximate timescales involved?

First stage is essentially internal to the operator. Although supposedly independent they are not really; he who pays the piper calls the tune. Same with the second stage. It’s only the third stage which is truly independent.

In terms of timescale, at each stage the appeal body have 21 days to decide, the time starting upon their receipt of the appeal. Each stage has its own 21 day period; it isn’t cumulative.

If, at any appeal stage, the panel do not decide within 21 days then your son will cease to be liable for the penalty fare.

 

[ainsworth74]

If, at any appeal stage, the panel do not decide within 21 days then your son will cease to be liable for the penalty fare.

I could be wrong but I'm not sure that's correct. If the panel don't decide the first stage appeal within 21 days then a criminal prosecution is blocked (and if the appeal is decided before 21 days elapse prosecution is also blocked) but I'm not sure I've come across a suggestion that a failure to decide within 21 days removes liability for the penalty fare?

 

[John Palmer]

I could be wrong but I'm not sure that's correct. If the panel don't decide the first stage appeal within 21 days then a criminal prosecution is blocked (and if the appeal is decided before 21 days elapse prosecution is also blocked) but I'm not sure I've come across a suggestion that a failure to decide within 21 days removes liability for the penalty fare?

See, e.g., Regulation 16(11A) of the Railways Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018:

"(11A) If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—

...

(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of schedule 2, the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey."

The effect is to substitute for the full penalty fare the lesser "full single fare applicable" as the amount payable. There are corresponding provisions for second stage and final appeals under Regulations 17 and 18. The referenced provision in paragraph 6 of schedule 2 is as follows:

"Where an Appeal Panel receives an appeal under regulation 16 or 17, it must decide whether to allow or not allow the appeal before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appeal is received."

Note that paragraph 6 creates a time limit for a decision upon appeals under Regulations 16 or 17 only. Paragraph 15(d) in Schedule 2 requires a Regulation 18 (final) appeal to be decided "before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appeal is received", but Regulation 18(10)(b), which is the provision for a Regulation 18 appeal corresponding with the Regulation 16(11A) provision, also refers to the paragraph 6 of schedule 2 time limit. Since that paragraph only applies to appeals under Regulations 16 and 17, it would appear that there is no commutation of the amount payable if a Regulation 18 appeal is not decided within 21 days of receipt. By definition an appeal under Regulation 18 cannot be an appeal under Regulations 16 or 17!

 

[ainsworth74]

See, e.g., Regulation 16(11A) of the Railways Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018:

"(11A) If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—

...

(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of schedule 2, the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey."

The effect is to substitute for the full penalty fare the lesser "full single fare applicable" as the amount payable. There are corresponding provisions for second stage and final appeals under Regulations 17 and 18. The referenced provision in paragraph 6 of schedule 2 is as follows:

"Where an Appeal Panel receives an appeal under regulation 16 or 17, it must decide whether to allow or not allow the appeal before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appeal is received."

Note that paragraph 6 creates a time limit for a decision upon appeals under Regulations 16 or 17 only. Paragraph 15(d) in Schedule 2 requires a Regulation 18 (final) appeal to be decided "before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appeal is received", but Regulation 18(10)(b), which is the provision for a Regulation 18 appeal corresponding with the Regulation 16(11A) provision, also refers to the paragraph 6 of schedule 2 time limit. Since that paragraph only applies to appeals under Regulations 16 and 17, it would appear that there is no commutation of the amount payable if a Regulation 18 appeal is not decided within 21 days of receipt. By definition an appeal under Regulation 18 cannot be an appeal under Regulations 16 or 17!

Thank you, that is indeed something that I'd missed!