Northern Rail faredodging letter recieved

[scipiiouse]

Evening all, my first post here so I may mess up but er... yeah.

Basically, about six weeks ago I traveled from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Piccadilly (the journey costs £1.80), but I paid at Mauldeth Road and used my 16-25 Railcard (Which drops the journey price by 50p). However, I was in a rush when I left and picked up my expired Railcard (I got a new one in the post two months previous but forgot to bin the old one).

Upon arriving at the station, there were two queues; one for those who already have a ticket, and one for those who need to buy one. Already having a ticket, I went in the queue and had mine checked by an inspector. He asked me to produce my Railcard, which I did. He noted that it was expired and I explained my mistake to the man and produced £2, offering to go into the queue and pay full price for a new ticket. Grasped by some insane impulse to enforce his powers to the point of maliciousness, the man refused and confiscated the ticket, the Railcard and took my details. At this point I left the station and walked off, worried.

Six weeks pass and I forget about it, until this morning. I got a letter through the post which suggest I Dodged the Fare intentionally despite offering to pay for the ticket and producing the money to do so.

I wrote my explanation down on the reverse as asked in a polite manner and wrote that I wished to resolve the situation in a speedy and civil manner. I also scanned my railcard and included that, showing that I had a valid railcard at the time of travel, despite being unable to produce it on the day. I've posted that off now.

I guess my fear is that they're going to get really draconian on this matter. I've heard stories of people getting criminal records for dodging fares, but the thing is, they allow everyone to buy tickets when they get off the train. Surely there should be less of an issue with people having a discount ticket than none at all? I buy a ticket every day (I go into university via train).

What's likely to happen? Will I be able to settle this matter outside of any legal issues? I've got a couple hundred lying around from my summer job, so I could probably go up to £300 on a settlement, though I'm hoping for maybe a payment of the price of a ticket and the admin fees, so about £20 or ever.

Cheers for reading this.

 

[bb21]

Grasped by some insane impulse to enforce his powers to the point of maliciousness, the man refused and confiscated the ticket, the Railcard and took my details.

Unfortunately he is within his rights to take your expired Railcard and submit it for investigation. This is a very harsh comment as the guy is just doing his job.

I've posted that off now.

If you have not sent it off, someone might be willing to proof-read it for you so that you do not incriminate yourself further, although it is too late for that I guess.

I guess my fear is that they're going to get really draconian on this matter. I've heard stories of people getting criminal records for dodging fines, but the thing is, they allow everyone to buy tickets when they get off the train. Surely there should be less of an issue with people having a discount ticket than none at all? I buy a ticket every day (I go into university via train).

Plenty of people defraud the railway by buying a discounted ticket they are not entitled to. I am not saying that you are one of them, however it is very difficult from the company's perspective to differentiate between those who made an honest mistake and those who intentionally defraud them.

What's likely to happen? Will I be able to settle this matter outside of any legal issues?

I guess we will have to wait and see what their response is to your letter. There is a possibility of settling the matter out of court especially if this is your first time.

Taking into account the fact that you already have a valid Railcard when the offence was committed, I would hazard a guess that you will very unlikely land yourself with a criminal record as your intention to defraud the railway can be very difficult to prove, although all the usual disclaimers apply and IANAL. That is provided that you did not say anything silly when you were questioned or in your letter.

Do you remember anything from the original conversation apart from confirming your details?

 

[scipiiouse]

Cheers for the speedy response, I'll keep folks informed.

I said nothing incriminating at any point to my recollection, I explained my quandary in the same manner as I have on here, though I was panicking at the time so my have mixed details slightly.

I'm not sure how they'd prove intent, I have no previous offenses of any kind other than a parking fine which I paid within a day of receiving, not sure if that would work for or against me. For some reason I never throw out rail tickets so I have many Mauldeth to Piccadilly return tickets from the 10th September through to the 1st November, as well as all of the card transactions on my bank account, which I guess would help show I didn't intend to dodge the fares.

 

[snail]

The intent is producing the expired railcard. Showing a collection of discounted tickets could make the situation worse as it could be interpreted as admitting to doing this more than once.

Do you have a receipt for your current railcard showing the date of issue? That is more likely to help them believe your story about picking up the wrong one.

 

[telstarbox]

Would the current railcard's expiry date not be sufficient?

 

[185]

I would certainly suggest submitting a photocopy (or scanned picture file) of the valid YP railcard which covered that date, and an apology and see what they say.

Playing devil's advocate though, from a company point of view, they could consider the chance of somebody else travelling at the same time (as you) using the in-date railcard, which sadly has, and still does occasionally happen.

 

[Lampshade]

Hang on, you were sold the ticket without issue at Mauldeth Road?

IIRC Mauldeth Road doesn't have a TVM.

 

[island]

I would certainly suggest submitting a photocopy (or scanned picture file) of the valid YP railcard which covered that date, and an apology and see what they say.

Playing devil's advocate though, from a company point of view, they could consider the chance of somebody else travelling at the same time (as you) using the in-date railcard, which sadly has, and still does occasionally happen.

Not on a Y-P, which has a photo(card), surely?

To the OP, does the letter mention a particular offence or is it more along the lines of asking for your side of the story? Unfortunately you have committed a criminal offence by travelling without a valid ticket, so you will need to come to terms with that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hang on, you were sold the ticket without issue at Mauldeth Road?

IIRC Mauldeth Road doesn't have a TVM.

NRES suggests Mauldeth Road has a ticket office and TVMs.

 

[scipiiouse]

To the OP, does the letter mention a particular offence or is it more along the lines of asking for your side of the story? Unfortunately you have committed a criminal offence by travelling without a valid ticket, so you will need to come to terms with that.

The letter just mentions faredodging, not mentioning what I've exactly done. They don't even know the route I took, only the date I travelled, so I'm guessing it's some sort of umbrella letter they send out to everyone.

NRES suggests Mauldeth Road has a ticket office and TVMs.

Yeah, it does. Not too sure when they put it in, I've only been there two months.

My main hope at the moment is they don't go too draconian on this issue. I've provided them proof that I have a valid YP Railcard (I scanned my photocard, the photographs match up, and I guess if they ask I could send them a copy of the letter I was given with the new railcard).

Still, they say it could be up to £1,000.
Or 3 Months in prison.
And a criminal record.
For getting a 50p discount.

I thought crimes were meant to be punished on their severity, but my friend did 50 through a 30 MpH zoned village at 5 o'clock in the winter, and got a £60 fine (plus he did a speed awareness course). No threat of court action, no criminal record, no prison. Mathmatically speaking, what I've done is, according to Northern Rail, sixteen times worse than that.

I just hope I can settle this without taking it to court, I hope to become a teacher after my degree and Northern Rail have the potential to destroy my future as well as putting me in debt.

 

[island]

You cannot as I understand it go to prison for a first offence of this nature, if it's any consolation.

Northern is known to discontinue prosecutions on receipt of an appropriate payment towards the fare avoided and administrative fees.

 

[scipiiouse]

Ahh, splendid. The guy who collared me for the ticket said I'd be looking at about a £20 fine plus the fare which is fair enough. I just freaked out when I got the letter which said "£1,000 Fine" and "Three months in prison", combined with a number of horror stories off the internet about Northern Rail.

Another thought: A large number of people who travel from Mauldeth Road don't buy tickets. They pay for them at Piccadilly Station. It seems that Northern Rail endorse this practice as it's their staff selling them. Surely that would mean that a large number of people were traveling without a valid ticket, and the fact I had the money at hand to buy a new ticket suggests I wasn't attempting to dodge the fare, or something.

 

[185]

Another thought: A large number of people who travel from Mauldeth Road don't buy tickets. They pay for them at Piccadilly Station. It seems that Northern Rail endorse this practice as it's their staff selling them. Surely that would mean that a large number of people were traveling without a valid ticket, and the fact I had the money at hand to buy a new ticket suggests I wasn't attempting to dodge the fare, or something.

...and it's this, that I have serious issue about. I have always been under the impression that those who have at least paid something are much less of a concern than those who've paid nothing.

I'll never forget being in a messroom and hearing, "look at all these out of date railcards I've pulled" (it was like a pack of cards) to which I replied "look at all these fake season tickets I've pulled".

One expired railcard often by only a few weeks, isn't really on a par with someone caught at Leeds who's made their own £4,200 First Class season ticket to Hull on their HP desktop printer.

 

[bb21]

Still, they say it could be up to £1,000.
Or 3 Months in prison.
And a criminal record.
For getting a 50p discount.

I thought crimes were meant to be punished on their severity, but my friend did 50 through a 30 MpH zoned village at 5 o'clock in the winter, and got a £60 fine (plus he did a speed awareness course). No threat of court action, no criminal record, no prison. Mathmatically speaking, what I've done is, according to Northern Rail, sixteen times worse than that.

You are not comparing like with like.

These are maximum penalties. In reality for a first offence the penalty is much less.

 

[dggar]

........my friend did 50 through a 30 MpH zoned village at 5 o'clock in the winter, and got a £60 fine (plus he did a speed awareness course)........ .

Slightly off topic, sorry

I thought the accepted crteria for a speed awareness course was 10% over the limit +2mph ie 35mph in a 30mph area.

I'm supprised a course would be available for 50mph in a 30mph zone.

 

[northwichcat]

Slightly off topic, sorry

I thought the accepted crteria for a speed awareness course was 10% over the limit +2mph ie 35mph in a 30mph area.

I'm supprised a course would be available for 50mph in a 30mph zone.

A fine is mentioned on top of the speed awareness course and there's no mention of whether penalty points were or weren't issued. So it sounds like the course reduced the punishment instead of being instead of a punishment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, it does. Not too sure when they put it in, I've only been there two months.

So did you buy the ticket from the TVM?

 

[scipiiouse]

A fine is mentioned on top of the speed awareness course and there's no mention of whether penalty points were or weren't issued. So it sounds like the course reduced the punishment instead of being instead of a punishment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So did you buy the ticket from the TVM?

I assume that's the ticket machine? Yeah, I picked one up about 10 minutes before the journey, paid with my card.

 

[northwichcat]

I assume that's the ticket machine? Yeah, I picked one up about 10 minutes before the journey, paid with my card.

TVM stands for Ticket Vending Machine.

If you buy a ticket at the ticket office they are supposed to check your railcard is valid before they issue a ticket. Although, you can buy a railcard discounted ticket from a TVM without anyone checking your railcard.

 

[dggar]

A fine is mentioned on top of the speed awareness course .

I thought if you "qualified" for a speed awareness course(ie havn't had a speeding infringement for at least 3 years) you can be granted either the course or a fine( with points).

You don't have the course and a fine.
(the cost of taking the course being about the same or slightly higher than a fine)

 

[northwichcat]

I thought if you "qualified" for a speed awareness course(ie havn't had a speeding infringement for at least 3 years) you can be granted either the course or a fine( with points).

You don't have the course and a fine.
(the cost of taking the course being about the same or slightly higher than a fine)

This might be the answer:

Attendance on the course attracts a fee payable by the offender, as well as the time and effort involved.

http://www.driver-improvement.co.uk/index.php/home/speed-awareness-scheme

Meaning the cost mentioned is the course fee and not a fine.

Anyway, that's not really relevant to this thread unless there is a ticket buying course for people caught travelling with a valid ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Anyway, that's not really relevant to this thread unless there is a ticket buying course for people caught travelling with a valid ticket.

That's a good idea. I've always said that passengers should do a course of Railway 101

 

[34D]

That's a good idea. I've always said that passengers should do a course of Railway 101

That would be the fares workshops which are offered from time to time.

 

[Squaddie]

That would be the fares workshops which are offered from time to time.

The very fact that fares workshops are required indicates that there is something very wrong with the rail industry. The only questions you should have to be asked are "Where to?" and "First class or second class?". (And, perhaps, a working TVM on every station and a fixed £100 penalty for anyone travelling without a ticket, for whatever reason. There - I've fixed the UK's miserable rail system in a few sentences. )

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The very fact that fares workshops are required indicates that there is something very wrong with the rail industry. The only questions you should have to be asked are "Where to?" and "First class or second class?". (And, perhaps, a working TVM on every station and a fixed £100 penalty for anyone travelling without a ticket, for whatever reason. There - I've fixed the UK's miserable rail system in a few sentences. )

You've also emptied half the trains as many people can no longer afford to travel.:roll:

 

[Flamingo]

The very fact that fares workshops are required indicates that there is something very wrong with the rail industry. The only questions you should have to be asked are "Where to?" and "First class or second class?". (And, perhaps, a working TVM on every station and a fixed £100 penalty for anyone travelling without a ticket, for whatever reason. There - I've fixed the UK's miserable rail system in a few sentences. )

Sounds good to me. No split ticketing, no railcards, no Advances, no peak/off peak, and the ability to just pull £100 out of everybodys bank account without any problems.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would be the fares workshops which are offered from time to time.

No, I mean teaching all passengers how to read a timetable and destination screen, listen to announcements, what size bag they can pack and where it needs to be stored, where they need to go to buy a ticket, why a random number on a post-it will not substitute for a ticket, why it is not the railways fault they turned up too late to buy a ticket, and a special module (for extra credits) in recognising diffrent types of staff, so they know who to ask what question to.

 

[scipiiouse]

Cheers for the response guys, my nerves are about settled.

But yeah, the rail industry has been gripped by a madness these days that almost suggests they don't want anyone on the trains in the first place. You get polite people on the trains a lot of the time, but the owners of some rail companies seem cruel and cynical.

I generally opt to drive places if I'm travelling with a group now; if you can't get a group saver, three people can get from my home to Manchester and back for £45, but the train tickets are around £30 a person. Along with that, things you get punished for whilst driving seem much more like... Justice I guess- it is much easier to see speeding fines as a punishment than it is to see getting off the train a platform early and being fined £150. Train companies have turned the honest mistake into an exploitable resource.

 

[yorkie]

That would be the fares workshops which are offered from time to time.

None currently being offered. Depending on what gets decided at the end of next month there may be some more next year. No decision has yet been made.

 

[scipiiouse]

So uh... no response from Northern Rail yet. Not too sure what their plan of action will be.

A thought though; according to Northern Rail's own terms;

If you don't have the railcard with you, under the terms and conditions of the railcard the discounted ticket is invalid and you will have to buy a new ticket for your whole journey.

Surely having an invalid railcard is the same as having none, and yet I wasn't given the option to get a new ticket even though it's standard practice on that route for Northern Rail employees to sell tickets for the journey at the destination station.

 

[bb21]

Surely having an invalid railcard is the same as having none, and yet I wasn't given the option to get a new ticket even though it's standard practice on that route for Northern Rail employees to sell tickets for the journey at the destination station.

Northern do not have to offer the option of purchasing a new ticket, if they have reasons to suspect fraudulent use of your Railcard and/or have sufficient evidence for prosecution.

 

[Sidious]

Slightly off topic, sorry

I thought the accepted crteria for a speed awareness course was 10% over the limit +2mph ie 35mph in a 30mph area.

Very off topic - sorry.

10%+2 is normally the lower band for enforcement action.
A SAC is only available for 10%+2 to 10%+9 inclusive.

50 in a 30 should be a report for summons, as it falls outside the scope of the fixed penalty system. It doesn't stop an officer using discretion as in this case.