Northern Rail 48 hour strike called

[tbtc]

40% is a minority in the technical sense only

361 out of 1,000 is a minority

 

[Anvil1984]

Don't have a problem with them getting bank holiday pay for the 27th and 28th but are they all going to take the 25th and 26th either as holiday or day off. I have to use holiday days up if Xmas is over a weekend.

Kinda of complicated answer to this one. If they are from the North West depots then Christmas Day has to be taken as annual leave (or unpaid leave if all annual leave has been taken), due to Boxing Day being on a Sunday then no leave has to be taken.

At the East Side depots, for Christmas Day the guards get paid the pay for their shift and booked off for the day or 8 hours pay if they weren't supposed to be in anyway. On Boxing Day (due to being on a Sunday) everyone is booked off without pay

 

[tbtc]

I'd also like to see strike ballots required to have a majority in favour of industrial action for them to be legitimate. Attempting to legitimise a minority result in strike ballots by inference as to which side of the fence those abstaining are on is disingenuous.

Agreed

 

[Greenback]

No suggestion on my part of any illegality. However if you choose to infer that from my post then so be it. To me, 40% is a minority in any sense (technical or otherwise) what with it being less than half. I mostly agree about the Government bit, although the analogy is a little flawed. A combination of the votes of the Conservatives and LibDems produces a percentage of around 59%. But it's highly unlikely that all of that 59% voted for a coalition. Even then you have to consider all those (some 35%) who abstained, i.e. didn't vote.

Exactly, so what you are saying is that 59% out of 65% actually voted either Lib or Con, which equates to about 40% out of the total electorate if my maths is correct. That's not very different to the Northern Rail conductors percentages as far as I can tell.

 

[tbtc]

I wouldn't expect the average sheep/commuter to understand

Aye, good luck trying to win public support by calling passengers "sheep"

I understand the situation perfectly well. At a time when other people are having to take pay cuts/ wage freezes/ losing contractual rights (e.g. council staff round here will lose some sick pay), just over a third of Guards are complaining about not getting something they aren't contractually entitled to
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How come I've been rejected from roles with Northern when your grammar is so poor?

Was one of the application questions "is a third a majority"?

 

[Mvann]

As it stands at the moment, if I work Monday to Friday this week, I get Saturday and Sunday as days off and Monday and Tuesday are bank holidays. If I don't do Monday to Friday this week, I have to use a holiday day up, which could be used as a lieu day if I have to work a bank holiday day. You have the same problem the following week as 1st jan is a Saturday, but the bank holiday is not till the following Monday.

 

[scotsman]

If you have that many issues with people going on strike, may I suggest you vote for the BNP in the next general election - since they are very likely to ban industrial action (along with everyone who ain't white along with every right we take for granted). But no worry, the main thing is these 'militant' Guards won't go on strike and you won't have to walk to work...

 

[kyrano]

how do i go about getting to preston from leeds i bought a advance single to motherwell , connecting into the 11.42 at preston from leeds im booked on the 09.51 to Blackpool change at preston any advice much appreciated.

 

[CarterUSM]

Anyway, I back the action, best of luck getting management round the table though, and hopefully it won't come to actually striking.

 

[kyrano]

how do i go about getting to preston from leeds i bought a advance single to motherwell , connecting into the 11.42 at preston from leeds im booked on the 09.51 to Blackpool change at preston any advice much appreciated.

 

[tbtc]

how do i go about getting to preston from leeds i bought a advance single to motherwell , connecting into the 11.42 at preston from leeds im booked on the 09.51 to Blackpool change at preston any advice much appreciated.

Thankfully Transpennine will still be running from Preston to Manchester Piccadilly (trains for Manchester Airport) and from Manchester Airport to Leeds (trains for Newcastle/ Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull), so you can still do the journey, just via a longer route which involves a change.

Sadly on a lot of Northern routes they are the only operator, so there won't be alternatives.

 

[Mvann]

So how many days are the guards working this week and how many next week?

 

[matt]

Topic re-opened

I have removed several posts. Whilst a debate about the rights and wrong of the strike is acceptable resorting to personal insults is not acceptable. Any further personal insults are likely to be removed and action taken as required. Thanks for you co-operation

 

[boing_uk]

So, what we have is a dispute by some staff who, for whatever reason have decided that their contracts need adjustment. Fine!

Northern should draw up entirely new contracts like much of the rest of the professional private sector; 37.5 hour week, no final salary pension, reduced overtime rates, none of the high street perks and discounts. And if you dont want the new contracts, then you dont sign them, take your four weeks termination notice and goodbye!

 

[CarterUSM]

So, what we have is a dispute by some staff who, for whatever reason have decided that their contracts need adjustment. Fine!

Northern should draw up entirely new contracts like much of the rest of the professional private sector; 37.5 hour week, no final salary pension, reduced overtime rates, none of the high street perks and discounts. And if you dont want the new contracts, then you dont sign them, take your four weeks termination notice and goodbye!

No offence Boing, but that will improve industrial relations how exactly?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So, what we have is a dispute by some staff who, for whatever reason have decided that their contracts need adjustment. Fine!

The Contracts are fine, its just Northern who don't like the contracts
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Anyway, I back the action, best of luck getting management round the table though, and hopefully it won't come to actually striking.

I hope they do come around the table and talk, no one wants to strike just the majority of us that actually VOTED feel its our last option

lets see what they come up with (if anything)

 

[boing_uk]

No offence Boing, but that will improve industrial relations how exactly?

It won't, however rail staff need to remember that they do in fact have quite a cushy number compared to the rest of us who work in the professional private sector.

The number of strikes that are called over petty things such as weekend working, bank holidays, ticket barriers, DOO (which you will never convince me isnt less safe than having a guard), disciplinary procedures and a whole host of other minor matters which crop up almost monthly in the media is, to me, indicative that the contracts that the staff and rail companies have signed up to are not watertight enough.

The rail companies have the right to issue new contracts and for those staff who dont agree to them then they have their four weeks notice handed to them.

The railways provide a vital economic and social service and it cannot be held to ransom at the whim of the unions over petty disputes over employee perks and cash.

 

[notadriver]

Based on what you've just said can i assume you feel train drivers should earn the same as bus drivers ?

 

[DarloRich]

There does seem to be a lot of conservative responses to this strike, generally along the lines of the guards should do what the company tell them and if they don’t like it they can get new job.

That is why we have unions, to stop that sort of approach, it is exploitative and wrong.

Having read the documentation on both sides, and having no real interest in this matter it seems clear that Northern are in the wrong.(this time) They didn’t word their agreement very well in my opinion. That is their fault ( or thier lawyers) HOWEVER, the timing of the strike seems to be scheduled to cause most disruption to the passenger, NOT the company. I Wsupport the porinciple, perhaps not the timing.

On a general point: You wont convince those who are anti union that a strike is ever right. I am a member of a trade union ( not a very millitant one it has to be said) and would not feel able to cross a picket line. You do not insult a man who has withdrawn his labour on a point of principle. You do not take his job becuase one day it might be you. Do people actually think that the "rank and file" want to strike? They dont, they just feel they have no option. (Union management, particlury of the RMT, is another matter) To strike is the last resort.

 

[northwichcat]

yep something we use very often...last time on strike approx 9 years ago (we do this so often you know)

The last strike was before Northern Rail took over. However, there have been threats of strikes for issues like possibly of driver only operation on tram-trains in Sheffield (even though the tram-trains haven't even been designed) and action if the conductors did not have control of the doors on 180s. These were 'sorted out' but the latter means that SDO cannot be used on the 180s.
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Northern guards are the lowest paid in the country

The North of England has lower average salaries than most of the rest of the country. Football match tickets at places like Wigan and Blackburn are available for around £15 and many local fans are priced out, yet £75 tickets for Tottenham sell like hot cakes. If you want a high salary move to London but you'll also see your living costs increase significantly.
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Northern should draw up entirely new contracts like much of the rest of the professional private sector; 37.5 hour week, no final salary pension, reduced overtime rates, none of the high street perks and discounts. And if you dont want the new contracts, then you dont sign them, take your four weeks termination notice and goodbye!

With the private sector it's increasingly the case that a 9-5 day will get you a below average salary. To even stand a chance of getting an average salary you need to start at 8.30 or finish at 5.30.

I'm not sure what the lunchtime/break situation is with train staff but in most companies it's 30 or 60 minutes unpaid and you might be asked to delay your lunch break or work through part or most of it at very short notice.

 

[notadriver]

Train guards perform a similar safety critical role no matter where they are on the country, therefore their pay, terms and conditions should be broadly similar.

Train guards and office workers can't be compared. A train guard is safety critical and his/her knowledge/actions during emergency situations is paramount. It doesn't really matter if an office worker falls asleep in front of their PC!

 

[northwichcat]

HOWEVER, the timing of the strike seems to be scheduled to cause most disruption to the passenger, NOT the company. I would support the principle, perhaps not the timing.

It depends how you look at it. Northern mainly operate short distance services and if you are planning to travel end to end on a Northern service it's likely that alternatives with other operators are available. Most people won't be working on those days so it's the shops with the post-Christmas sales that will most likely lose out.

However, for people who are trying to get home after Christmas it could cause huge problems. Take someone trying to travel to Knutsford in Cheshire, the closest places they'll be able to get by rail are Hartford, Macclesfield, Altrincham and Wilmslow with no onward bus connections so they'd have to rely on making an approx 10 mile journey by car or taxi.
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Train guards perform a similar safety critical role no matter where they are on the country, therefore their pay, terms and conditions should be broadly similar.

While that's a valid statement there probably isn't any company in any sector that will offer people based in places like Manchester, Wigan, Blackpool, Liverpool, Buxton etc. salaries that are competitive with their London based counterparts.

Train guards and office workers can't be compared. A train guard is safety critical and his/her knowledge/actions during emergency situations is paramount. It doesn't really matter if an office worker falls asleep in front of their PC!

That would get you instant dismissal though! Most offices do have people trained to be able to deal with first aid and fire situations.

 

[Saxonia]

You're claiming they are additional bank holidays which you want extra pay for. The official government information here clearly states that they are NOT additional bank holidays. You may recall conductors worked on the 27th last year with no extra pay despite it being a substitute day for a bank holiday. If Northern breached the contract then why did it take the staff and union almost 12 months to notice, especially considering the RMT are usually extremely quick to jump on anything like that?

Actually, I think you will find that the vast majority of guards at Northern did NOT work on Sunday 27th December, 2009. Northern were alerted to possible difficulties at least SIX months prior to the affected date, but, as we have come to expect from this bunch of cowboys over the last SIX years, they chose to do NOTHING.

 

[DarloRich]

That would get you instant dismissal though! Most offices do have people trained to be able to deal with first aid and fire situations.[/QUOTE]

BUT not trained in how deal with thier office crashing into another office at 75mph!!

 

[Saxonia]

Reported on another forum that the majority of conductors didn't vote. 601 did vote and 361 of them voted for industrial action.

Of the 976 members of RMT in the guards' grade, a ratio of 2-1 were in favour of strike action, of those who could be bothered to vote in the 1st place - of the remaining 375 members, I do wonder as to just how many of these go squealing to the RMT at the slightest possible thing, yet are perfectly happy to see agreed terms & conditions being torn to pieces by the abysmal management of this TOC ?? (A TOC, by the way, that deems it perfectly acceptable to send umpteen trains out in mid-winter with NO heating provided for passengers whatsoever - FACT).

 

[ukrob]

Are you now suggesting that no train is preferable to a train with no heating?

 

[Saxonia]

Liverpool abstained due to row between them and the RMT on a seperate issue

Majority who voted yes (hearsay etc etc was the Mcr depots)

Havent a clue about the Eastern as their t&C are different

BUT as the company have been sending out numerous texts to conductors trying to scare them it isnt surprising
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so how can the majority NOT vote when we have approx 1000 guards???

1000 - 601 = 399

Mm - actually, there were NO spoiled ballot papers. There was an overriding YES vote from former FNW territory - as we have now come to expect from former ATN territory, they voted NO...........
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There have been numerous claims made that guards throughout the franchise operating area did not receive their ballot papers in time for return by the closing date. Whilst this may well be true in a number of cases, there are those who have not kept up with change of address details to the union, there are those who simply sat on thei ballot papers until the last minute, & there are also a good many who simply seem to have no opinion on the matter whatsoever (a VERY worrying prospect).
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Are you now suggesting that no train is preferable to a train with no heating?

Just reporting the facts of the matter..........
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Don't have a problem with them getting bank holiday pay for the 27th and 28th but are they all going to take the 25th and 26th either as holiday or day off. I have to use holiday days up if Xmas is over a weekend.

We too have to use a lieu day for December 25th if rostered for duty, & also for December 26th, when that date does not fall on a Sunday.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There does seem to be a lot of conservative responses to this strike, generally along the lines of the guards should do what the company tell them and if they don’t like it they can get new job.

That is why we have unions, to stop that sort of approach, it is exploitative and wrong.

Having read the documentation on both sides, and having no real interest in this matter it seems clear that Northern are in the wrong.(this time) They didn’t word their agreement very well in my opinion. That is their fault ( or thier lawyers) HOWEVER, the timing of the strike seems to be scheduled to cause most disruption to the passenger, NOT the company. I Wsupport the porinciple, perhaps not the timing.

On a general point: You wont convince those who are anti union that a strike is ever right. I am a member of a trade union ( not a very millitant one it has to be said) and would not feel able to cross a picket line. You do not insult a man who has withdrawn his labour on a point of principle. You do not take his job becuase one day it might be you. Do people actually think that the "rank and file" want to strike? They dont, they just feel they have no option. (Union management, particlury of the RMT, is another matter) To strike is the last resort.

The rank & file booked to work on these 2 dates also stand to lose somewhere in the region of £300-£400. Really, guys - do you honestly think that these decisions are taken lightly, eh ?? We also have families to support, & bills to pay, just like anybody else - strike action is NOT taken on a damned whimsy, & this is the first such action in former FNW territory for many years. Let us all kindly take a deep breath, & place matters in perspective, eh.

 

[90019]

BUT not trained in how deal with thier office crashing into another office at 75mph!!

You never know, it might be the Crimson Permanent Assurance

 

[northwichcat]

The rank & file booked to work on these 2 dates also stand to lose somewhere in the region of £300-£400.

They're losing £300-£400 over 2 days hock: Even if that's assuming double pay before tax and NI contributions for bank holidays it means the conductors are on at least £39,000 per annum, assuming they work 5 days a week.

 

[CarterUSM]

It won't, however rail staff need to remember that they do in fact have quite a cushy number compared to the rest of us who work in the professional private sector.

You have a point, I do realise my terms and conditions are pretty good compared to other private sector roles, but that seems to show more of a malaise on the part of other trade unions/ employees. If they would've liked similar terms and conditions, they could have fought to get them.