Northern Rail 48 hour strike called

[Legzr1]

You have a point, I do realise my terms and conditions are pretty good compared to other private sector roles, but that seems to show more of a malaise on the part of other trade unions/ employees. If they would've liked similar terms and conditions, they could have fought to get them.

A good point that is often overlooked.

I said it earlier in a post that's now been deleted (perhaps I need to have a post count in the 1000's before my views are left unmolested :roll - rather than berate those fortunate enough to have the strength of character to take a stand,why not take a stand yourselves?
You want a 35 hour week?Fight for it.
You want a decent standard of living with a good work/life balance?Fight for it.

Pretty simple really

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern Guards are on 12.32 an hour i will lose approx 180 and I still agree with the fact that on this occasion we have to/ need to strike, for the 1st couple of years Northern were g8 however they have been treating guards with contempt for a long while now, this has simmered for a few yrs now its boiled over, morale has never been so low, even our local managers have noticed but the upper management are more interested in thier own pockets and shareholders than they are about the people who actually keep thier company running day to day (guards being a reasonably large part of that)

 

[Saxonia]

They're losing £300-£400 over 2 days hock: Even if that's assuming double pay before tax and NI contributions for bank holidays it means the conductors are on at least £39,000 per annum, assuming they work 5 days a week.

Mm - let's see now, & let's all try to keep up here, eh.
Two x 10 hour shifts (invariably with absolute bare minimum break time on jobs that are invariably guaranteed to run late) at £12.38 per hour = £247.60. With commission at 5%, coupled to a keen conductor whose supplies of change (given how many damned £20 notes we get for miniscule fares) & (dis) advantix machine & even dodgier dione can keep up with the flow of ticketless passengers, many are the conductors, especially on routes where there are many unstaffed stations or booking offices with fastis problems that can break the £500-£1000 per day on takings quite easily. If we take the middle figure from these two, giving an average take of £750 per day over the 2 days (on what would be VERY busy days) = £37.50 per day commission, giving £75.00 commission to add to £247.60, giving a grand total of £322.60 before tax, insurance.
And there we are - yes, surprise, surprise - we too went to school once over you know, & a good number of us have also benefitted from a good education.

 

[scotsman]

The point seems to be from much of the right (not in the correct sense before one of the pedants jumps in ) that because everyone else apparently has a raw deal, then these Guards shouldn't get paid money they're entitled to. Charming.

 

[FGWman]

Is Sunday paid as overtime at Nothern or is it part of the working week. Will guards with a booked sunday on Boxing day get paid for it?

I ask because if they will not be paid then the company will be saving all the money they would usually pay out on Sunday. This money could be given out as an enhanced payment for the Guards working Mon and Tue and the net overall cost for Nothern would be Zero.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Is Sunday paid as overtime at Nothern or is it part of the working week. Will guards with a booked sunday on Boxing day get paid for it?

I ask because if they will not be paid then the company will be saving all the money they would usually pay out on Sunday. This money could be given out as an enhanced payment for the Guards working Mon and Tue and the net overall cost for Nothern would be Zero.

no guards will be paid for that sunday, when we work a sunday (westside) is time and a quarter

 

[northwichcat]

Mm - let's see now, & let's all try to keep up here, eh.
Two x 10 hour shifts (invariably with absolute bare minimum break time on jobs that are invariably guaranteed to run late) at £12.38 per hour = £247.60.

I didn't know conductors did around 10 hours of work per working day. I've heard Northern conductors say they're finished for the day at around 12pm-12.30pm with start times of around 4am.

giving an average take of £750 per day over the 2 days (on what would be VERY busy days) = £37.50 per day commission.

If the conductor gets the Manchester-Chester via Altrincham line they can sell a few hundreds pounds worth of tickets in a single outward/return journey, so they can get £50 worth of commission in three hours and more if there are special events on. I realise other lines aren't like that due to PTE fares being lower than in Cheshire and PTE stations having better ticket buying facilities. However, I would imagine lines like the Buxton and Hope Valley lines can get high rates of commission as well.

 

[Greenback]

I haven't seen the staffing agreements for Northern, but based on those for ATW that I have seen 10 hrs would probably be the maximum allowed under the staffing agreement, but you cna bet that the vast majority rostered to work on the public holidays would be on that sort of a long day. There are usually restrictions on shift lengths for those who have to book on before 0500, or finish after midnight, which would account for the shorter very early turns.

What cannot be disputed is that the staff involved will lose money should they go on strike. Therefore I agree that those who do so do not usually take strike action lightly. A stirke ballot is no guarantee that a strike willt ake place, there is still time for the action to be called off.

 

[Clip]

What cannot be disputed is that the staff involved will lose money should they go on strike. Therefore I agree that those who do so do not usually take strike action lightly. A stirke ballot is no guarantee that a strike willt ake place, there is still time for the action to be called off.

So they know that they are going to lose money by going on strike.. So why bother going on strike then. Thats what i dont get. Its the only year this is going to happen for a few years now and as has been said these are not stat bank holidays so i struggle to see the problem.

 

[DarloRich]

The point seems to be from much of the right (not in the correct sense before one of the pedants jumps in ) that because everyone else apparently has a raw deal, then these Guards shouldn't get paid money they're entitled to. Charming.

Agreed - that is exactly the point that many make

 

[Greenback]

It is about principle, as has been said. If it was simply about money then fewer people would be keen to strike. It also seems to be about agreements, and interpretation of those agreements. As with many things, both sides are probably capable of putting forward a strong argument in support of their own point of view, and each is probably convinced that their view is the only correct one.

I'd hazard a guess that it is the indeterminate nature of the additional days that is the cause of the trouble, The latest ATW station staff harmonisation agreement does, I understand, include the phrase 'Christmas Day, Boxing Day and any substitute days', which seems clear enough wording to me that this is meant to include the bank holidays added when Christmas is on a weekend. Yet who knows what trouble that may cause once it is ratified!

 

[DarloRich]

So they know that they are going to lose money by going on strike.. So why bother going on strike then. Thats what i dont get. Its the only year this is going to happen for a few years now and as has been said these are not stat bank holidays so i struggle to see the problem.

becasue it is the principle. Let this one go and what next. How many other things have been let go? Where do you draw the line?

 

[theblackwatch]

The union traded 6 bank holidays

these extra HAVE NOT been agreed to

all we want is a fair wage for these 2 EXTRA bank holidays

Ian Bevan & Co. are distorting the truth quite wildly, at one stage they claimed Northern negotiated about the 6 days back in 03, one little prob Northern took over in 05

we are not greedy, we just want a fair wage which is akin to working a bank holiday

and I am sorry about the disruption but Northern have gone 1 step too far

Morale is at an all time low and people just want to see some light at the end of the tunnel, at the moment all we see is darkness

so please guys/gals support us in this action, I personally know it will be a pain in the rear for travellers that day but this HAS to happen (unless Northern realise we are not just CHEAP personnel, but highly qualified professionals who in the majority of cases do our job extremely well with the ancient stock we have to work with)

If they have not been agreed previously, was this not a major failing by the union negotiators when the current agreement was tied up? Did they not consider what would take place when December 25th/26th fell on a weekend and include this as part of the agreement before it was agreed?

 

[Greenback]

Why is a failing on the union side? It may have been left out by management quite deliberately. It may have been felt by both sides that it would be better being negotiatied seperately. We simply don't know what may have been discussed years ago or why.

 

[theblackwatch]

If it was left out deliberately, then the union should have picked up on it and had something included. Were members informed this hadn't been agreed on when the current agreement was voted in? I realise they may have decided to negotiate it separately, I don't know the answers - that's why I asked! I would hope somebody involved will remember what was mentioned about dates like this in the original agreement and know.

 

[Greenback]

Does it really matter? The whole essence of negotiating is to try and get the best deal you can. Invariably this involves some sort of compromise from both sides. The end result is that either this particular situation wasn;t covered by the best efforts of both sides, or was covered but with (possibly deliberately) unclear or ambiguous wording.

 

[theblackwatch]

Does it really matter? The whole essence of negotiating is to try and get the best deal you can. Invariably this involves some sort of compromise from both sides. The end result is that either this particular situation wasn;t covered by the best efforts of both sides, or was covered but with (possibly deliberately) unclear or ambiguous wording.

I think Bob Crow made sure it was clear when he said:
There is NO agreement in place on Northern Rail for the additional public holidays on the 27th and 28th December that everyone else will be benefitting from this year.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, but I don't see how you can blame the union for that. I don't see how the management are to blame for it either. That there is no agreement covering these days is surely down to both parties to the original talks?

 

[TomJ93]

I was speaking to a driver of the LU on Saturday. He has been asked to work on Boxing Day (as in the Sunday) and if that isn't bad enough they're being asked to work a full service!

So if you get Christmas Day and Boxing Day (as in the actual dates not the bank holidays) and not the following two official holidays I find that more than fair.

My mother is working christmas day for the second year running, and then the "official" holiday of boxing day.

 

[Greenback]

Fairness often depends on the payment you receive, whether you get time off in lieu, how much choice you get in the matter and how the employer generally treats their staff over the rest of the year. It's verys implistic to say that it;s fair to get two days off out of four 'holidays' without cosidering other factors.

 

[Clip]

becasue it is the principle. Let this one go and what next. How many other things have been let go? Where do you draw the line?

Indeed its very hard to draw the line somewhere. But then again the unions have been pushing that line further and further themselves have they not and calling a strike on probably the worst days to call them to try and get the management to cave in.

And i would be seriously worried about my reps if as pointed out that they did not notice from the calender when they last negotiated that this would be a problem.

I can fully understand they want remunerating for this and I do fell, if its true, that they wont be getting paid and others will. But again that comes back to the reps and how they with every other TOC & NR have got these bank holidays in but they have not. Do they not all talk to each other about these issues when they all meet up? Common sense tells me the info would have got through.

 

[Greenback]

There is never a good time for a strike. But, from the union point of view, it is good tactics to choose a day that will be the most disruptive for management. Whether that's the case with this action, I don't know though.

Follwoing on from this line of thought, do Northern care at all whether the striek goes ahead or not? Will they actually lose money by not running trains?

 

[Clip]

There is never a good time for a strike. But, from the union point of view, it is good tactics to choose a day that will be the most disruptive for management. Whether that's the case with this action, I don't know though.

Follwoing on from this line of thought, do Northern care at all whether the striek goes ahead or not? Will they actually lose money by not running trains?

I guess they would woulndt they ? People heading into the city centres for the sales - whilst some will have seasons there will be a lot on the day ticket sales lost id imagine.

And they are still going to have to pay those who were not balloted nor involved in it too..

 

[Greenback]

Yes, but I wonder if the amount saved in fuel costs and not having to pay the strikers is that much less than the revenue they can expect from tickets on the day. Also, would Northern still get their usual ORCATS revenue allocation from tickets? They would still get the commission for all EC tickets sold at their ticket offices wouldn't they?

Management may have decided it's better if the strike went ahead, especailly considering the amount of time and money needed to avoid it.

 

[GB]

Surely in a situation such as this it should have been "work to rule" or termination of the rest day working agreement BEFORE calling strike action?

I respect anyones right to strike and have supported previous arguments, particularly regarding Sunday working, but on this occassion I dont think I can give my support.

 

[CarterUSM]

Surely in a situation such as this it should have been "work to rule" or termination of the rest day working agreement BEFORE calling strike action?

I respect anyones right to strike and have supported previous arguments, particularly regarding Sunday working, but on this occassion I dont think I can give my support.

I was thinking that would've been a wise move, but perhaps there is a reason for not doing so.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I do hope some sort of agreement is reached, if it isn't I can see it escalating and escalating when to be frank, abit of give and take from Northern AND the RMT would actually calm things down and improve morale no end, but Northern seemed to turn against the guards a few years ago, when compared to ASLEF the RMT has asked for very little, now I don't begrudge the Drivers anything I am good m8s with alot of them but even they admit the pay gap between Drivers and Guards is staggering compared to when the CRI/DRI agreements came into effect (Approx 15k now)

and a RDW ban woudnt really effect anything ASLEF have had one for what must be a couple of years now all Northern do is make up Diagrams called "Altered Workings" 90% of jobs are covered straight away the other 10% they just shift around

A commision ban wouldnt work because all Northern would do is get the Minimum wage G4 staff (some are actually very good at their jobs, some are well......) to cover unmanned stations more regularly than they do now.

Thats why I believe Striking at present is the only way

I don't WANT to strike but Feel I HAVE to

I do respect other peoples opinions even during heated debates, and I appreciate the pita this strike will be for passengers BUT
sometimes its the only way

 

[tbtc]

If they have not been agreed previously, was this not a major failing by the union negotiators when the current agreement was tied up? Did they not consider what would take place when December 25th/26th fell on a weekend and include this as part of the agreement before it was agreed?

That's exactly my problem with it.

I can understand that the contracts won't have provision for things like the Royal Wedding next year (I'm not sure whether I will get a day off work, for example, as it's not the kind of thing you expect when negotiating a contract).

However, there are clearly going to be years when Christmas is at the weekend - roughly a third of years.

Guards can claim that other employment conditions don't affect them (e.g. millions of people are faced with compulsory redundancies, pay freezes, pay cuts, working harder to cover the fact companies aren't hiring new employees, people forced out of Final Salary pensions). For example, in South Yorkshire we will have *hundreds* of Police redundancies, council staff face a 5% pay cut, thousands of other people live under threat of redundancy and I'm certainly not getting a pay rise of Christmas bonus!)...

...however employment law does apply to Guards. And a contract which says you have no right to extra pay on 27 December means exactly that. I don't know why Guards are so keen to defend their Union when the Union seem to have been so negligent at arranging the contract.

As for the "success" of the Union at improving conditions, you have to accept that privatisation has been brilliant for Unions. They are a lot more powerful now than they used to be - short term TOCs are so desperate to maintain profits that they are desperate to keep trains running, so have bent over backwards to make pay rises significantly "above average". If I threatened to go on strike, my company would replace me, many people have found their jobs moved abroad etc. You can't do that with Guards, and Unions know this. Perversely, Bob Crow has benefitted from privatisation significantly more than most...

 

[Tom B]

I was speaking to a driver of the LU on Saturday. He has been asked to work on Boxing Day (as in the Sunday) and if that isn't bad enough they're being asked to work a full service!

Dreadful. If I was on £42k, I'd have no problems working Boxing Day!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Dreadful. If I was on £42k, I'd have no problems working Boxing Day!

I would love to be on 42k a year However I must factor in cost of living etc.42k seems to be pretty similar cost of living wise to the 35k a yr driver up here are on