Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[tbtc]

You know they were the only PTE to agree to using Pacer trains initially (the 141s). GMPTE, later on, tried to refuse the 142s in favour of the superior class 210s but the Thatcher government didn't like the thought of new decent trains serving places like Wigan and refused and GMPTE, like Merseytravel, got a mix of 142s and 150s

Living in South Yorkshire, I've heard my share of anti-Thatcher theories, but do you have anything to back this up?

If she didn't want new trains serving Wigan then under which Government were the Class 90s introduced? And the 91s to non-Tory places like Doncaster? I wouldn't be surprised if Wigan got more new trains under Mrs T than under Labour.

Maybe West Yorkshire were just more realistic in terms of what new DMUs they could get (rather than daydreaming about building a tunnel under a city centre and funding Class 210s)?

Why are we in the North of England (which is 3 regions - population 14-15m) constantly being compared to the South West (population 5.2m) or Wales (population 3.6m) in terms of railways?

We have more big cities up here than anywhere else in the UK, with a decent commuter flow into Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool especially.

Wales is only "built up" in its south east corner, and the only sizeable city in the South West is Bristol.

The fact is that LOCAL services in the North are, generally, operated by shoddy, unsuitable stock.

Compare the stock operating into Manchester on local lines to Birmingham's equivalents. Two very similar sized conurbations with a big difference in rolling stock quality (323's aside).

Local services in "the north" are generally operated by the same stock that local services in south Wales/ south west England are operated by (same as the East Anglian branchlines and East Midland branches).

Doesn't matter whether you are in Manchester or Cardiff, Leeds or Bristol, Norwich or Newcastle, there's a familiar mix of 1980s BR DMUs. As I've tried to explain, there's no "anti Northern" conspiracy going on; there's a lack of modern local DMUs in most of England and Wales.

Birmingham only got the 172s a few months ago - they had dozens of 150s until then (as did the GOBLIN route).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Going back to the 317/7(?)s, These are the units that were refurbished for Stansted Express services, right?

Am I right in thinking that one of the reasons for these being off-lease is that after this refurbishment the owning ROSCO bumped up the leasing charges? On this basis, will Northern/TfGM be able to afford these sets? Of course if they're intended for the Liverpool-Manchester Airport services they would be ideal for it their present form, albeit with 1st class that would either be removed or declassified (imagine the fights for these sections at 1730 at P14 at Picc!).

 

[Whistler40145]

As the Chat Moss line will be 90mph, why not roster Class 323s on Liverpool to Manchester Victoria/Airport services & use 317/7s on Crewe to Manchester services?

 

[jon0844]

Am I right in thinking that one of the reasons for these being off-lease is that after this refurbishment the owning ROSCO bumped up the leasing charges?

I believe so (as in one of the reasons).

However, the ROSCO might not have wanted to lower the charges to the existing TOC - but now they're sitting around, may have no choice.

I am sure TOCs and ROSCOs play the same sorts of games as we're seeing Tottenham and Real Madrid over Bale. Of course, Bale is faster than a 317.

 

[jopsuk]

Going back to the 317/7(?)s, These are the units that were refurbished for Stansted Express services, right?

Yes, one of two batches. The /7s have 2+2 seating in standard class, with full size tables (I, though I'm about 180cm/5'11", found them a bit high, and awkward to get in/out of the window seats) and 2+1 seating in 1st class (which takes up more than half a carriage in a four carriage set). They also have a really really ugly front end design. I actually prefer the seating in the /6s- these have 2+2 in Standard, but wih mini-tables in the bays (often sadly missing) and a half-carriage 2+2 1st class (with full tables) at one end

The other's that were "converted" for Stansted Express use, the /8s, are still in use. These simply took /5s- 3+2 in standard, 2+2 with arm rests but no tables, middle section of the non-driving trailer, for 1st class- took out a few seats and added some luggage racks.

Am I right in thinking that one of the reasons for these being off-lease is that after this refurbishment the owning ROSCO bumped up the leasing charges?

I haven't seen anything official along those lines. Following the introduction of the 379s the /7s had been getting used as crowd busters on the GEML, all the way to Norwich. When GA came in, they looked at loadings of trains, also noticed a couple of units sitting out of service that could be returned to use, and so shortened some services they reckoned didn't need the capacity, were able to avoid using 317s on the GE and had enough 317s and 379s for the formations they decided were enough on the WA route without using the /7s.

 

[northwichcat]

Living in South Yorkshire, I've heard my share of anti-Thatcher theories, but do you have anything to back this up?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=54938

If she didn't want new trains serving Wigan then under which Government were the Class 90s introduced? And the 91s to non-Tory places like Doncaster? I wouldn't be surprised if Wigan got more new trains under Mrs T than under Labour.

I wasn't being entirely serious with my response. The Intercity locos you mention were put on services to and from the Capital. Services between the North and London have always been higher priority than local services within the North. Remember that politicians actually use the Intercity between the North and London.

Local services in "the north" are generally operated by the same stock that local services in south Wales/ south west England are operated by (same as the East Anglian branchlines and East Midland branches).

Ignoring Cardiff it's only really Northern cities that see Pacer trains on busy commuter services. Electrification plans will easily allow all Pacers in South Wales and the South West to disappear from those areas. With the North there is a lot less certainty with what will happen.
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Did Mrs T really say she didn't want new trains serving particular areas?

I said her government not her personally and yes her government did prevent the state own British Rail ordering a proper batch of class 210s to order cheaper alternatives like the 150s and Pacers instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As the Chat Moss line will be 90mph, why not roster Class 323s on Liverpool to Manchester Victoria/Airport services & use 317/7s on Crewe to Manchester services?

That would mean around 80 seats less on Crewe-Manchester services and the passenger comfort on the Northern fast Liverpool-Manchester services will be far inferior to the EMT and TPE services via Warrington. The Liverpool-Manchester Airport services do attract a lot of people in suits and people with luggage - far too much luggage for a 2 car 156.

Isn't the actual permitted top speed of the 323s actually 92mph?

 

[bangor-toad]

Straying, and staying, off topic...

The Class 210s were not mass-produced for anyone, as they were considered an expensive option.

This is very true. The Class 210s were fantastically complex machines that were never going to provide the solutions needed.

They were designed to have the ability to work on diesel, 3rd rail or OHL. As far as I'm aware the two prototypes were only ever tested using the diesel engine and there were never any electrical pickup systems built in. Leaving aside any current comparisons with the bi-mode IEP in the early 80's this would have been a very complex job to do and it would have been a costly job to design in.

Fundamentally though there was a space problem. About 1/2 a carriage of a 3 or 4 car unit was the diesel engine and there was no passenger walkway past it. The competing designs of 15x family had underfloor engines and there was/could be a walkway between units allowing far more passengers per set.

The 14x family was the other competitor and they were cheaper...

Given the economic (and political) views of the times, the only really viable option was going to be the cheaper one. Lot's of 14x and 15x units were built and delivered.


And to conclude with some lunchtime controversy; Perhaps it was the right decision as some 30 years later these units are still working and many of the 15x family have many more years to go. Would have the more complex 210's have lasted this long or would have there been fare rises 10 years ago to pay for replacements?
We'll never know...

Cheers,
Jason

 

[Buttsy]

Fundamentally though there was a space problem. About 1/2 a carriage of a 3 or 4 car unit was the diesel engine and there was no passenger walkway past it.

The attached picture belies the fact that a walkway was envisaged past the engine, though this would have been uncomfortable to go by...Or was it just that a 445/317 shell used for economy reasons in the prototypes...???

 

[bangor-toad]

The attached picture belies the fact that a walkway was envisaged past the engine, though this would have been uncomfortable to go by...Or was it just that a 445/317 shell used for economy reasons in the prototypes...???

Hi there,
The DMBSO for some reason had the centre corridor doors in the cab as shown in the photo.

I've got a schematic of the layout of the 210 carriages in an old book and it shows the engine bay and the luggage compartment as going all the way across the width of the carriage.
Perhaps the corridor was to go in future models beyond the prototypes? For the two prototypes I think the end cab door was only for staff use.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[tbtc]

her government did prevent the state own British Rail ordering a proper batch of class 210s to order cheaper alternatives like the 150s and Pacers instead

Not giving BR a bland cheque to buy a large number of experimental units (at a time when finances were tight) is different from what you previously said though

 

[northwichcat]

And to conclude with some lunchtime controversy; Perhaps it was the right decision as some 30 years later these units are still working and many of the 15x family have many more years to go. Would have the more complex 210's have lasted this long or would have there been fare rises 10 years ago to pay for replacements?
We'll never know...

Exactly you can't say.

Things may well have been different as if GMPTE had received 210s to replace all the 1st gen EMUs in the Manchester area then Metrolink phase 1 may have been different and started with disused or diesel lines opposed to two electrified lines. That's if Metrolink had ever happened. Metrolink itself was a cheap alternatives to the previously considered options of a tunnel between Piccadilly and Victoria and the Ordsall Chord. And now it's been decided that the Ordsall Chord is needed despite Metrolink phase 1 being operational.

 

[jizzer]

Isn't the actual permitted top speed of the 323s actually 92mph?

323 are limited to 90 mph, though have seen some do 96, but it may be a dodgy speedo

 

[Class377/5]

Should be hearing more on this matter soon as the deal seems to be in the final stages with units moving to Northern have already been decided upon.

 

[WatcherZero]

Straying, and staying, off topic...

This is very true. The Class 210s were fantastically complex machines that were never going to provide the solutions needed.

Heavy buggers too by the looks of them, the engine car unsurprisingly weighed almost the same as a light locomotive of the same output.

 

[anthony263]

Some staff over on Wnxx who are in the know has reported that it has been decided which of the class 319's will be 1st to go to Northern. This is ll depending on the delivery of the class 377/'s with the 1st batch due to leave Thameslink towards teh end of next year.

I suppose Northern using the class 317/7's will allow the 1st batch of class 319's to be refurbished before they enter service with Northern

 

[Whistler40145]

This could be quite an unique situation, with 317/7s being used as a stopgap until sufficient 319s are available following refurbishment.

I expect drivers would first train on 317/7s in the North West, but how would training on 319s take place?

 

[WatcherZero]

Same way as TPE drivers training on the 350 probably, they would just borrow a single unit for a few months.

 

[Blindtraveler]

the situation is also unique in as much as for once Northern will get newly refurbed stock to a high standard. I am no myself having a dig at them but this should surely be something for those who spend there time slagging said TOC off to be happy about? The only recent thing to come near this was the CL322S which went through a major refit during there last stay at Scotrail.↲

 

[northwichcat]

the situation is also unique in as much as for once Northern will get newly refurbed stock to a high standard. I am no myself having a dig at them but this should surely be something for those who spend there time slagging said TOC off to be happy about? The only recent thing to come near this was the CL322S which went through a major refit during there last stay at Scotrail.↲

The former First North Western 150s had a major refurbishment 4-5 years before Northern Rail took over including new seats (similar to the c2c class 357s) and an accessible toilet. When Northern Rail took over they sent the former Arriva Trains Northern to the North West, complete with Regional Railways livery and original interiors (including BR passengers notices) and you could see the huge difference between the two types of 150s.

The major refurbishment plans for the 319s were a Lord Adonis plan under the previous government and the current government haven't said anything about it. Porterbook have done a brochure showing refurbishment options but other than the accessibility changes, there is no guarantee that the refurbishment will go ahead.

 

[Class377/5]

Some staff over on Wnxx who are in the know has reported that it has been decided which of the class 319's will be 1st to go to Northern. This is ll depending on the delivery of the class 377/'s with the 1st batch due to leave Thameslink towards teh end of next year.

I suppose Northern using the class 317/7's will allow the 1st batch of class 319's to be refurbished before they enter service with Northern

I think your getting your timeline confused. The 377/7 arrive at the end of this year with only 8 units it wont be an extended delivery period with Bombardier busy. These will release 377/2 for FCC so they can release 319s.

The second batch is tied into alterations with FCC/Southern/Southeastern that are planned for late 2014.

 

[Bevan Price]

And talking of cascades, it was very much a BR thing to cascade stock around. The Class 150/1s were displaced from a number of semi-express services by Class 156s, which were in turn displaced by Class 158s once they came on stream. .

Technically, I suppose you could describe it as a cascade, but the 150s were only used on Trans Pennine services as an interim measure, pending delivery of Class 158. Then some 2 car 158s destined for Scotland were used temporarily on Trans Pennine services until the 3 car 158s were built.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the 317s freed up will be the obvious units. Then 319s can come in as they are freed up. Having the 317s first will allow for more 319s to be away for refurbishment. The more EMUs available for cascading the better as it infers more electrification which in turn means DMUs going spare which either means more capacity or perhaps a few pacers being removed from service.

Lets face it a second hand EMU has to be better than a shorter DMU which might be no younger - especially as the DMU might well be a pacer !.

Ahh great more old crap for Northern. Wy scrap trains ? Just send em up north

Your getting NEW wires which means faster acceleration so just be patient, new trains will come later. OR would you rather stick with the DMUs. The 319s are quite good btw, I would rather lose the 455s and 313s(which are dual voltage). The 319s have plenty of life in them its only that there are not enough for the Thameslink expansion. I think also that better acceleration is needed to gain the capacity improvements required - iirc. So totally replacing the 319s gave some other part of the country the CHANCE to get electrification.
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Proof if ever it was needed that whichever set of idiots get in power, they ignore the North! :roll:

Well I live in the South and feel pretty ignored also !. Its part of London really but I would still like to be separate. Remember Greater London had its governing body removed as a result of the Thatcher years. Did Birmingham, Greater Manchester, Leeds etc have their governing body removed ?.

 

[WatcherZero]

Acceleration isnt anything to write home about, Porterbrook is talking about reforming them from 4 cars to 3, regearing them from 100mph to 75mph max and removing 3rd rail equipment to improve it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Acceleration isnt anything to write home about, Porterbrook is talking about reforming them from 4 cars to 3, regearing them from 100mph to 75mph max and removing 3rd rail equipment to improve it.

That would be a waste . The 319s accelerate quite nicely when on the AC. The DC is a bit less but no DC to be had up North . I must admit it seems a bit weird sending dual voltage (AC+DC) units to AC only routes but, of course, there are not any AC only units South of the Thames.

Regearing from 100mph to 75mph would of course improve acceleration and would be great if the routes they are going to are not above 75mph. Is it really the case that the new routes are all max 75mph so below 100mph ?.

In terms of acceleration the 313s seem to be dire but that could be to do with the Southern power supply along the coast - btw.

I can imagine re-gearing and improving the power to weight ratio by dropping a coach would be very useful on the Valley lines. I think I am right in saying that these routes are quite steep so the ability to climb gradients is probably more use than top speed.

Perhaps Wales should get the 319s shortened and re-geared and the 313s can go to Northern ? .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lets face it a second hand EMU has to be better than a shorter DMU which might be no younger - especially as the DMU might well be a pacer !.

I think that we have all been well trained in the acceptance of "Pacers" up here in "Northern-land" so as not to be shocked by the sudden replacement of our normal stock by "the trains from Hell"....

 

[northwichcat]

Is it really the case that the new routes are all max 75mph so below 100mph ?.

No. Liverpool-Blackpool could utilise 110mph capable stock (or even 125mph tilting stock*), as could Manchester-Blackpool but to a lesser extent.

Chat Moss is below 75mph currently but Network Rail are undertaking line speed improvement works. I'm not sure to what though.

The thing with top speeds and train lengths, the routes that are likely to need something longer than 4 cars in the foreseeable future but can't take 8 cars are the ones with the fastest speeds. So creating some 3 car 75mph units and leaving the 4 car ones as 100mph would seem pointless. However, creating 3 car 100mph units (with corridor connectors) and making the 4 car units have better acceleration and 75mph top speed has some logic to it.

* I see the probability of that happening as around 1%.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well I live in the South and feel pretty ignored also !. Its part of London really but I would still like to be separate. Remember Greater London had its governing body removed as a result of the Thatcher years. Did Birmingham, Greater Manchester, Leeds etc have their governing body removed ?.

Yes they were all axed by the Tories.
The metropolitan boroughs work together where appropriate (eg owning Manchester Airport).
The PTEs are still separate (equivalent to TfL in London).

 

[WatcherZero]

For non WCML utilising routes and if it had good acceleration a 90mph unit ala the class 158 would probably be the ideal compromise as that would be enough for max line speed virtually everywhere else.

Theres some merit in Jcollins suggestion though its the Blackpool services that would make use of 100mph which would want to ideally be four car.

Basically anything Transpennine or via Bolton you would want as 4/8 car units while Liverpool-Lancashire and the secondary routes out of Manchester such as to the Airport 3/6 car would be acceptable.

Platform length wise practically all stations in the region have been recently lengthened to 6 car length for 3x Pacer/Sprinter combinations and the major stations and WCML routes 8 car trains if not longer are easily accommodable. You might have to have the stoppers as 6 car length with expresses as 8 to accommodate some of the smaller stations on the Bolton line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Basically anything Transpennine or via Bolton you would want as 4/8 car units while Liverpool-Lancashire and the secondary routes out of Manchester such as to the Airport 3/6 car would be acceptable.

How many railway stations would require platform lengthening to accommodate either 6 or 8 car units ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Looking through from Man Pic to Preston for platforms shorter than 120m or 160m

Deansgate 150m/155m
Salford Crescent 153/158m
Kearsley 126/109m
Farnsworth 143/149m
Moses Gate 79/79m
Lostock 155/158m
Horwich 141/141m
Blackrod 114/114m
Adlington 127/124m
Chorley 142/138m
Buckshaw 150/150m

So not too much issue there.