Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[DarloRich]

If Centro offer additional financial support for strengthening Cross-City services then I can't see LM turning it down in favour of using more carriages on Euston services. LM were going to order 28 new carriages initially (just for Euston services) so maybe Centro did something to get that up to 40 and to include Cross-City services.

We shall see! I am sure if CENTRO have paid LM will have been very quick to take their arm off!

 

[sd0733]

I believe that the 350/3s rather than directly going onto the x city are to replace another 3 323 diagrams on Walsall-Wolverhampton and the displaced 323 then put on cross city work.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That and extra emus needed for additional redditch and bromsgrove services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

December 2013? What would Northern do with more EMUs then?
No newly electrified lines will be available for another year unless Manchester-Golborne-Wigan-Preston or Warrington BQ-Manchester is being contemplated.
I can see the point of a few extra if it avoids the current use of DMUs under the wires (eg on Manchester-Alderley Edge), but the main startup for services is not for at least another year.
Am I missing something? Are extra services on existing electric lines planned?
And the last thing Northern needs is a mish-mash of electric types like its DMU fleet.
I can understand Northern being given clearance to plan the operation of the 319 fleet next year, anything else feels like panic measures.
Is there a cunning plan?

 

[WatcherZero]

No you partially hit it on the head, Northern dont currently have enough 323's to fill the existing South Manchester electric services which is requiring the diversion of diesels which have been contracted through extra subsidy to strengthen overcrowded services but which obligations Northern is consistently unable to provide enough rolling stock to meet. Though it has improved recently, I think they are managing to strengthen 80% of the services they are contracted to strengthen, was previously around 60%. So even as little as 8 extra units would improve life greatly for Northern.

While I think the 323's are likely to all end up at Northern eventually through a swap with LM for something like the 321's the 350's should start arriving at LM in the middle of next year and thats just to meed demand so its unlikely until theres stuff which could be cascaded from LM until something is cascaded to them.

 

[D365]

If you want a theory on getting the 26 remaining 323s to the North, I reckon that the 21 GA 360/1s and the 5 Heathrow 360/2s (shortened by 1 carriage) should do the trick. Like-for-like replacement, with SDO/platform lengthening in Birmingham for the 11m longer units, should do the trick. 323s (and 319s) to Northern. At the bare minimum, the 13 GN and 7 Midland 321s (latter replaced by 350/4) are modernised to GA spec and go into service.

Just a repeatedly-uttered theory of mine which is somewhat of a diversion from the primary topic. Don't really see how economical it is to get 6-8 uneconomical (capacity-wise) 317/7s into service for a few years, considering that at most, there will likely only be the 12 GN units along; if the GA lot is modernised rather than replaced by further 379s. Makes sense to send the lot there and perhaps replace the 315s with these and 321s.

 

[WatcherZero]

If theres half a dozen extra units they could also help buffer 319 refurbishments.

 

[rmt4ever]

The 317s are (I think) the only EMU sets presently off lease, so this would appear the option.

Ahh great more old crap for Northern. Wy scrap trains ? Just send em up north

 

[Blindtraveler]

i should have thought LM wouldnt shorten the heathrow 360s as the Liverpool Birmingham route platforms can take them anyway, at least on the fasts? I too had spotted this comment Re northern EMUs on twitter and wondered about LM being asked to part with 321s seeing as Northern already opperate some? Bit ironic if so as the old NSE Interior of LMs units make Northerns look new! Another LM home for the Heathrow units without shortening could surely be Trent Valley work as most platforms can take 5 cars?

 

[TheWalrus]

So it'd only be 9 317s they would take on which isn't much but I suppose it'd be an improvement for Northern!

 

[Kneedown]

Ahh great more old crap for Northern. Wy scrap trains ? Just send em up north

And when they get REALLY knackered in the North, they'll be cascaded to the East Midlands!

 

[jopsuk]

The 317s are (I think) the only EMU sets presently off lease, so this would appear the option.

There's only 8 available- one is an interior and technology demonstrator. Regardless, the /7s have completely the wrong interior for Northern- including 2+1 first class. Even the standard class has a low-density seating arrangement, with little standing room.

 

[northwichcat]

And when they get REALLY knackered in the North, they'll be cascaded to the East Midlands!

The 156s EMT got from Northern were in much better condition than the 150s Northern got from LM to replace them. It was Northern who got the very short straw following on from the class 172 deliveries with LM and LO getting the long straw, EMT getting the medium straw and FGW getting the short straw.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Regardless, the /7s have completely the wrong interior for Northern- including 2+1 first class. Even the standard class has a low-density seating arrangement, with little standing room.

Why? Have you been on the 156s (with 2+2 seating and tables) currently operating the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service? Those services currently need extra luggage space more than they need extra seats.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Cover diesel under wire diagrams, strengthen electric services and maybe operate peak time stopping services to Wigan NW or Preston

Ambitious? Optimistic? Dam right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ahh great more old crap for Northern. Wy scrap trains ? Just send em up north

Better than what we have now so don't complain!

 

[IanXC]

Regardless, the /7s have completely the wrong interior for Northern- including 2+1 first class. Even the standard class has a low-density seating arrangement, with little standing room.

I'm not sure Northern are really in any position to be picky about the interiors of possible cascades! I think its more a case of a train is a train!

 

[anti-pacer]

Personally though, I think it would make better sense to add to the LM/TPE 350 order so that Northern for a change has brand new trains.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

We'd need to move the government out of London before use mere mortals "oop north" could be considered for anything new!

That said, I do agree 100% with you!

 

[tom1649]

Ahh great more old crap for Northern. Wy scrap trains ? Just send em up north

There really is no pleasing some people. The 317s are good quality units. The only thing against them is their age, which people are happy to discriminate against even if the units are still perfectly good at their job. For goodness sake they even have proper bogies and seats which will give you a comfortable ride! I'd love to know why you think they are 'crap'. Have you ever travelled on one?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

We'd need to move the government out of London before use mere mortals "oop north" could be considered for anything new!

That said, I do agree 100% with you!

Class 333, 185, Voyagers.

 

[anti-pacer]

Cover diesel under wire diagrams, strengthen electric services and maybe operate peak time stopping services to Wigan NW or Preston

Ambitious? Optimistic? Dam right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Better than what we have now so don't complain!

Sorry, but this is the kind of attitude that means we get riddled with cr*p stock, because we'll be grateful for it.

Southerners would be up in arms if they got 'hand me downs' instead of their new toys! Why should we up here settle for less?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Class 333, 185, Voyagers.

So nothing recent then? Not enough to replace 142's, 144's, 150's, which wouldn't be "acceptable" in the South East.

Also, Voyagers cover a lot of the country, not just the North.

 

[northwichcat]

Just checked on seated capacity of the 317/7s. Apparently it's 198 seats in total so a 33% increase in capacity over a class 156. It's also around the same number of seats as a pair of ex-ATN 142s or a 150+153 combination.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So nothing recent then? Not enough to replace 142's, 144's, 150's, which wouldn't be "acceptable" in the South East.

Also, Voyagers cover a lot of the country, not just the North.

No we got extra 150s instead. Some even indirectly replaced Voyagers.

The Manchester-Preston service used to be (standard pattern over a 2 hour period):
2 x Manchester Airport to Blackpool (class 185)
1 x Manchester Airport to Windermere (class 185)
1 x Manchester Airport to Barrow (class 185)
2 x Buxton to Blackpool (class 150/156)
1 x Manchester to Scotland (class 220)

Now it is:
2 x Manchester Airport to Blackpool (class 185)
1 x Manchester Airport to Scotland (class 185)
1 x Manchester Airport to Barrow (class 185)
2 x Manchester to Blackpool (mainly 150s)
2 x Hazel Grove to Preston (mainly 150s)

So instead of a 4 car Voyager every 2 hours there's a 2 car Northern DMU every hour.

 

[rmt4ever]

There really is no pleasing some people. The 317s are good quality units. The only thing against them is their age, which people are happy to discriminate against even if the units are still perfectly good at their job. For goodness sake they even have proper bogies and seats which will give you a comfortable ride! I'd love to know why you think they are 'crap'. Have you ever travelled on one?

Yes on not-so Greater Anglia. It was old and crappy and dated. Much like those old 319s first crapital connect have.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry, but this is the kind of attitude that means we get riddled with cr*p stock, because we'll be grateful for it.

Southerners would be up in arms if they got 'hand me downs' instead of their new toys! Why should we up here settle for less?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So nothing recent then? Not enough to replace 142's, 144's, 150's, which wouldn't be "acceptable" in the South East.

Also, Voyagers cover a lot of the country, not just the North.

Voyagers cover a lot of the North of England, and they definitely don't go into the south east. 185s are recent in rolling stock terms.
350s have just been ordered for TPE, I believe we got 175s fairly recently too.
Sprinters were new for us by the way while down south had old slam door stock... it goes in cycles.

How expensive do you want your fares is the question to ask?

 

[tom1649]

Yes on not-so Greater Anglia. It was old and crappy and dated. Much like those old 319s first crapital connect have.

Oh so everything has to be shiny and new to get your approval does it? I suppose you'd like a completely new fleet every ten years. Perhaps you'd like your fares to increase to pay for this 'new fleet'. Maybe your house is over 20 years old. Does that mean it's old, crappy and dated and therefore needs knocking down as well?

 

[northwichcat]

Voyagers cover a lot of the North of England, and they definitely don't go into the south east.

Reading and Guildford are in the South East. Places like East Croydon and Gatwick Airport also saw Voyagers in the past.

Voyagers don't serve some of the largest cities in the North of England - Liverpool, Salford and Hull don't see any Voyagers.

I'm not sure if you've ignored the fact that London Euston gets regular Voyager services because technically London is a separate region to the South East or because you forgot about the Virgin Voyager services.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Reading and Guildford are in the South East. Places like East Croydon and Gatwick Airport also saw Voyagers in the past.

Voyagers don't serve some of the largest cities in the North of England - Liverpool, Salford and Hull don't see any Voyagers.

The point i am making is the North of England has seen new stock. Not absolutely nothing but cast offs as anti-pacer says regularly on every thread.

Hull now has 180s, Liverpool now has 350s and Pendilinos, before 2020 will have new Merseyrail stock.

Salford, well 185s and soon to be electrified.

So its not all baron as some suggest.

 

[northwichcat]

The point i am making is the North of England has seen new stock. Not absolutely nothing but cast offs as anti-pacer says regularly on every thread.

Anti-Pacer does have a point though. Apart from a small number of 333s operating in the Leeds area the only 'new' local stock the North of England has had since British Rail was abolished is cascaded trains from other parts of the country.

Remember Yorkshire alone has more people living in it than the whole of Scotland, yet Scotland has received more brand new carriages than the North of England since the turn of the millennium (based on the Northern, TPE and Merseyrail franchises combined compared to the Scotrail franchise, the new XC and Virgin trains serve both the North of England and Scotland.)

 

[YorkshireBear]

He does yes have a point. But it seems to be getting mentioned quite frequently at the moment and I wanted to point out that it wasn't we only ever get scraps. Just frustrates me because most say it on here but would never contact their MP....

 

[anti-pacer]

He does yes have a point. But it seems to be getting mentioned quite frequently at the moment and I wanted to point out that it wasn't we only ever get scraps. Just frustrates me because most say it on here but would never contact their MP....

Believe me Yorkshire Bear, I've contacted everyone from Northern Rail, my local MP, right through to the DfT!

It's all about what's best for the taxpayer apparently, like foreign aid probably!

Actually.... best leave that one there or I'll be off thread and on my soapbox!

 

[tbtc]

Don't really see how economical it is to get 6-8 uneconomical (capacity-wise) 317/7s into service for a few years

If Northern are to get any ex-GA EMUs then the 321s would make more sense, since there are some 321s and 322s already in Leeds, so (whilst the "east" and "west" side and separate and the line between them isn't electrified) there's scope to balance the numbers a little - e.g. I think there's more slack in the 322 numbers than in the 323s.

Plus, Northern don't need EMUs with corridor connections (apart from the doubled up 323s to Old Trafford a few times a year), and GA do, so the 321s would be more suited at Northern.

The point i am making is the North of England has seen new stock. Not absolutely nothing but cast offs as anti-pacer says regularly on every thread.

Hull now has 180s, Liverpool now has 350s and Pendilinos, before 2020 will have new Merseyrail stock.

Salford, well 185s and soon to be electrified.

So its not all baron as some suggest.

Agreed - the "grim up north" stuff gets boring (and plays into the stereotypes that those further south have!).

We have 170, 175, 180, 185, 220, 221, 222, 350, 390... and a lot of electrification to come.

Anti-Pacer does have a point though. Apart from a small number of 333s operating in the Leeds area the only 'new' local stock the North of England has had since British Rail was abolished is cascaded trains from other parts of the country

The same could be said of local services in Wales or the south west of England (presumably the ATW 175s don't meet your definition of "local stock for local people" as they run long distance routes similar to what 185s etc do in northern England?).

Remember Yorkshire alone has more people living in it than the whole of Scotland, yet Scotland has received more brand new carriages than the North of England since the turn of the millennium (based on the Northern, TPE and Merseyrail franchises combined compared to the Scotrail franchise, the new XC and Virgin trains serve both the North of England and Scotland.)

Given that the Voyagers run on the Manchester - Stoke leg every half hour and are also every half hour on the Sheffield - Newcastle leg, I think that they count more than just the hourly XC Voyager service from Berwick to Edinburgh (every two hours from Edinburgh to Glasgow, a couple a day to Aberdeen) and hourly VT "ex Birmingham" service from Carlisle to Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Also, you're forgetting about the other TOCs who run in "the north" - the LM 350s, the GA/HT 180s, even the EMT 222s at a pinch (and a lot more 390s than Scotland gets in a typical day).

 

[northwichcat]

Also, you're forgetting about the other TOCs who run in "the north" - the LM 350s, the GA/HT 180s, even the EMT 222s at a pinch (and a lot more 390s than Scotland gets in a typical day).

Maybe a clearer comparison.

Scotrail have 330 trains (ignoring the sleeper sets) and over 1/3 were manufactured after British Rail was abolished. Only the ex-BR 156s travel in to England in passenger service.

Northern, TPE and Merseyrail have 442 trains and just over 17% were manufactured after BR was abolished. The newest trains out of the 3 fleets (the 185s) are the only trains to travel in to Scotland in passenger service.

A comparison between Northern and Scotrail only would give around the same number of trains. However, I can see people saying that would be unfair given TPE have most of the new stock in the North.

You could say some of the newer stock in other franchises briefly going in to the North of England towards the end of a service is cancelled out by the 185s going outside the North of England to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cleethorpes.

Plus, Northern don't need EMUs with corridor connections (apart from the doubled up 323s to Old Trafford a few times a year), and GA do, so the 321s would be more suited at Northern.

They may change when Bolton and Blackpool go electric.