Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[northwichcat]

From Northern Rail's Twitter feed

currently in discussion with the DfT on the implications of providing electric trains to operate by Dec 2013

If that is accurate and they will have the extra EMUs in operation by this December I assume the only options are:
1. Taking on stored 317/7s available immediately.
2. Subleasing 323s from LM (323s are the only EMUs that Manchester based crews sign so can be introduced with no prior crew training.)

 

[anthony263]

I cannot see London Midland leasing any 323's to Northern considering how crowded most of their services are.

Anyway My money is on the class 317's after all it was suggested by a few on this forum back last year

 

[Class377/5]

From Northern Rail's Twitter feed

If that is accurate and they will have the extra EMUs in operation by this December I assume the only options are:
1. Taking on stored 317/7s available immediately.
2. Subleasing 323s from LM (323s are the only EMUs that Manchester based crews sign so can be introduced with no prior crew training.)

Its been know for awhile that Northern are discussing EMUs. Currently expected to be the 319s.

Remember the stock for the NW electrification hasn't actually been agreed yet despite the business case resting on the 319s.

Over the weekend the MD of Northern stated publicly on twitter it was being discussed and he did state that's its ongoing and no details over what stock.

I wouldn't place too much on the 317s or 323.

The 377/7 release 377/2 to release 319s with the 377/8 to release even more 319s. Northern will want a single fleet rather than having to retrain drivers on the 319s a few months later.

 

[David Goddard]

The 317s are (I think) the only EMU sets presently off lease, so this would appear the option.

 

[ainsworth74]

2. Subleasing 323s from LM (323s are the only EMUs that Manchester based crews sign so can be introduced with no prior crew training.)

Though what would LM use to replace the 323s they lost?

 

[SprinterMan]

From Northern Rail's Twitter feed



If that is accurate and they will have the extra EMUs in operation by this December I assume the only options are:
1. Taking on stored 317/7s available immediately.
2. Subleasing 323s from LM (323s are the only EMUs that Manchester based crews sign so can be introduced with no prior crew training.)

Without a doubt it will be the 317/7s. LM do not have enough spare 323s to lease, and there are between 6 and 8 317/7s available for use immediately depending on whatever Ilford are up to, which were sent off lease by another Abellio TOC no less. Also, the standard class interior of a 317/7 is basically the same as a 156, so the only issue would be the coach of 1st class, which I imagine NT would just declassify like they did with the 180s. Good luck to Northern, and here's hoping that the 317/7s find a good home.

Adam

 

[anthony263]

The problem being that no class 319's will be available from Thameslink at the moment and I highly doubt any will be available at least for the next 2 years or so.

It was expected that the Thameslink fleet would have started taking shape by now and that some class 319's would start becoming available however the whole delays have caused a bit of a mess.

Besides better to get some emu's in quickly which are available rather than having overhead wires up and but dmu's used because no emu's are available.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem being that no class 319's will be available from Thameslink at the moment and I highly doubt any will be available at least for the next 2 years or so.

Once Southern get extra 377s they are set to sublease them (their press release on the additional 377s indicates this.) A suggestion is they will subleased to replace the 319s, which will be cascaded on. However, that wouldn't likely result in extra trains being available for Northern to use for crew training ahead of the December timetable change.

The 317/7s would be ideal for Northern's short term plans. Initially they could use one or two to run peak time services completely under the wires operated by DMUs. Then as more crews are trained on them they could operate Liverpool-Manchester Airport services from the day the wires are ready, given I think the diagrams are self-contained and the 317/7s have a layout ideal for Airport services. Later on they can also be used to provide cover for the 319s when they eventually get refurbished.

 

[RobShipway]

Once Southern get extra 377s they are set to sublease them (their press release on the additional 377s indicates this.) A suggestion is they will subleased to replace the 319s, which will be cascaded on. However, that wouldn't likely result in extra trains being available for Northern to use for crew training ahead of the December timetable change.

The 317/7s would be ideal for Northern's short term plans. Initially they could use one or two to run peak time services completely under the wires operated by DMUs. Then as more crews are trained on them they could operate Liverpool-Manchester Airport services from the day the wires are ready, given I think the diagrams are self-contained and the 317/7s have a layout ideal for Airport services. Later on they can also be used to provide cover for the 319s when they eventually get refurbished.

I would imagine the 317/7's would be used while the 319's are refurbished and that the 319's would actually be refurbished prior to going to Northern. I can see maybe somewhere like Wolverton doing the refurbishment work.

 

[northwichcat]

Though what would LM use to replace the 323s they lost?

Maybe subleased 321s from Anglia who could then put the 317/7s back in to use?

 

[SprinterMan]

Maybe subleased 321s from Anglia who could then put the 317/7s back in to use?

Greater Anglia would never do this, the lease on a 321 is a lot cheaper than on a 317/7.

Adam

 

[northwichcat]

I would imagine the 317/7's would be used while the 319's are refurbished and that the 319's would actually be refurbished prior to going to Northern. I can see maybe somewhere like Wolverton doing the refurbishment work.

Unless the new Southern 377s get subleased to Northern I think it's likely at least some 319s will operate under Northern without first being refurbished as the 317/7s won't stretch to cover the Manchester Airport-Liverpool services and the stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Greater Anglia would never do this, the lease on a 321 is a lot cheaper than on a 317/7.

Look at what happened with Northern. They took on hugely expensive to operate class 180s when FGW were subleasing their 142s. Then when the 6 x LO 150s which Northern had been allocated were released they went to FGW to operate alongside the subleased 142s! And this is the same Northern who wouldn't use the 5 Pacers withdrawn when the Oldham Loop was closed to strengthen peak time Calder Vale services due to it costing too much, despite many former Oldham Loop passengers travelling on Calder Vale services to avoid the replacement bus services while the Metrolink conversion was ongoing.

The bottom line is what ever DfT says goes.

 

[tbtc]

Though what would LM use to replace the 323s they lost?

Genuine question - when do LM get extra 350s (10x350/3s)?

There's been so much talk about the 350s that TPE are getting, but I've not noticed much talk/excitement/ news about the LM ones.

It could even be as trivial as LM getting ten 350/3s and therefore subleasing a couple of 323s to Northern for a couple of years.

 

[RobShipway]

Unless the new Southern 377s get subleased to Northern I think it's likely at least some 319s will operate under Northern without first being refurbished as the 317/7s won't stretch to cover the Manchester Airport-Liverpool services and the stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool.

I think the 319's should at least be cleaned up before they are given to Northern as they have been treated like trash by FCC when I have been on them.

Personally though, I think it would make better sense to add to the LM/TPE 350 order so that Northern for a change has brand new trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Genuine question - when do LM get extra 350s (10x350/3s)?

There's been so much talk about the 350s that TPE are getting, but I've not noticed much talk/excitement/ news about the LM ones.

It could even be as trivial as LM getting ten 350/3s and therefore subleasing a couple of 323s to Northern for a couple of years.

I understand the 350/3s will be delivered after the 350/4s with only some of the 350/4s expected to be in service by the December timetable change.

Most Manchester Airport to Scotland services will run via Wigan from December, with the morning peak southbound services and evening peak northbound services remaining via Bolton until the May 14 timetable change. The intention being 350/4s taking over Manchester Airport to Scotland gradually between December and May and by May 14 enough 185s will be released to introduce an extra North TPE service every hour.

 

[anthony263]

Unless the new Southern 377s get subleased to Northern I think it's likely at least some 319s will operate under Northern without first being refurbished as the 317/7s won't stretch to cover the Manchester Airport-Liverpool services and the stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool.

I think the 319's should at least be cleaned up before they are given to Northern as they have been treated like trash by FCC when I have been on them.

Personally though, I think it would make better sense to add to the LM/TPE 350 order so that Northern for a change has brand new trains.

If the leasing costs were not so much perhaps they may have done just that however it appears not. That said look at the Thames Valley which were supposed to be getting some class 319's as well yet now it seems it will be newer emu's capable of 110mph.

Still be grateful you guys are getting the class 319's you could be getting the 315's like were are having for the Cardiff Valleys

 

[northwichcat]

Personally though, I think it would make better sense to add to the LM/TPE 350 order so that Northern for a change has brand new trains.

Would that create legal complications though? LM awarded the tender to Siemens and if 3/4 of the units went elsewhere then I could see Bombardier (and Bob Crow on behalf of the RMT) complaining about an unfair tendering process.

 

[Class377/5]

I would imagine the 317/7's would be used while the 319's are refurbished and that the 319's would actually be refurbished prior to going to Northern. I can see maybe somewhere like Wolverton doing the refurbishment work.

Depending on how quickly the agreement for the stock is arranged there maybe time for one or two units to be done as the stock that will start the cascade will arrive in the first few months of 2014. The 319/3 were refurbished in 2008-2010 so along with the 319/4 are in the best shape.

I've heard 319/3 mentioned as going to Northern first. But they don't have first class, where as the 319/4s do.

 

[northwichcat]

Still be grateful you guys are getting the class 319's you could be getting the 315's like were are having for the Cardiff Valleys

Remember a lot of the Northern passengers viewing this thread won't travel on the 'new' EMUs, only the DMUs cascaded as a result.

Despite being a regular Northern passenger I have never travelled on a 158 operated by Northern -ever. Yet a few years back there were a lot of complaints from the South West about Northern getting their 158s and FGW getting cast offs instead. I even used a Calder Vale service the other day (which is a line I don't normally travel on and a line where Northern 158s are used) and got a 150/1 in one direction and a 142 in the other.

 

[Whistler40145]

This seems to be Northern's only offer at present and taking on the 317/7s, unless sufficient 319s can be cascaded?

Which has more seats, 317/7 or 319?

Also, does a 317/7 have more or less seating than a 323?

 

[87015]

Also, does a 317/7 have more or less seating than a 323?

I'm guessing that by rights the likely services will be measured, officially, on capacity rather than seats as they will stop far more often than every 20 mins so it is not a matter of seats that will be viewed as all important.

 

[northwichcat]

Which has more seats, 317/7 or 319?

Also, does a 317/7 have more or less seating than a 323?

The 317/7s were fitted with a low density interior with 2+2 seating, tables and ample luggage racks to be suitable for Airport services. Therefore, they have less seats than the 319s and 323s which both have high density 2+2 seating. The 323s have 23.4m long carriages and are one of the few types of train which has >20m carriages and 3+2 seating, so they aren't really a whole carriage less than the 317s and 319s.

 

[DarloRich]

Genuine question - when do LM get extra 350s (10x350/3s)?

There's been so much talk about the 350s that TPE are getting, but I've not noticed much talk/excitement/ news about the LM ones.

It could even be as trivial as LM getting ten 350/3s and therefore subleasing a couple of 323s to Northern for a couple of years.

Aren't they going on Euston commuter services?

It must be 317's as they are to hand now. I assume other classes will follow in cascades as new trains come on stream.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm guessing that by rights the likely services will be measured, officially, on capacity rather than seats as they will stop far more often than every 20 mins so it is not a matter of seats that will be viewed as all important.

The (usually 35% of the seated capacity) standing for up to 20 minutes only applies at weekday peak times. If a Saturday afternoon train has 150 seats and 152 passengers then it's overcrowded, even if no-one has to stand for more than 5 minutes.

 

[RobShipway]

This seems to be Northern's only offer at present and taking on the 317/7s, unless sufficient 319s can be cascaded?

Which has more seats, 317/7 or 319?

Also, does a 317/7 have more or less seating than a 323?

The Class 323 has 284 seats and I believe that both the 317/7 & 319 have more seats than that even if they were in three car formation the same as the 323's.

One other point is that the 323's are only geared up to 90mph, whereas the 317/7's and 319's are geared up to a maximum speed of 100mph which on some routes would be needed if they need to clear the path of the track for oncoming quicker trains.

My thought here being if the 317/7s and 319s are going to be on similar routes to the TPE 350s which will be rated for 110mph maximum speed then you would need a train like the 317/7 or 319 to be able to get out of the path quickly.

 

[northwichcat]

My thought here being if the 317/7s and 319s are going to be on similar routes to the TPE 350s which will be rated for 110mph maximum speed then you would need a train like the 317/7 or 319 to be able to get out of the path quickly.

I don't know if Northern using 100mph stock on their Crewe and Stoke services might free up a path on the congested WCML.

Liverpool-Blackpool will probably be the new electric route with the most fast sections.

I don't think Liverpool-Manchester via Earlestown will go over 90mph even after the line speed improvements.

 

[tbtc]

Aren't they going on Euston commuter services?

It must be 317's as they are to hand now. I assume other classes will follow in cascades as new trains come on stream.

Yes, they are - I was just scratching around trying to find a way of freeing up a handful of extra Northern-compatible EMUs

 

[northwichcat]

Aren't they going on Euston commuter services?

Not all of them are. Some are supposed to be providing extra capacity on the Birmingham local services. However, possibly 350/2s will get cascaded on to those leaving a few 350/3s for something like Liverpool-Birmingham.

Edit: On checking LM say it's 7 for Euston services and 3 for the Cross-City line in Birmingham and also confirm a mid-2014 delivery date for 350/3s: http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...ins-bring-extra-capacity-and-faster-journeys/

 

[DarloRich]

Not all of them are. Some are supposed to be providing extra capacity on the Birmingham local services. However, possibly 350/2s will get cascaded on to those leaving a few 350/3s for something like Liverpool-Birmingham.

Edit: On checking LM say it's 7 for Euston services and 3 for the Cross-City line in Birmingham and also confirm a mid-2014 delivery date for 350/3s: http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...ins-bring-extra-capacity-and-faster-journeys/

i wouldn't be surprised if they all end up on Euston services

 

[northwichcat]

i wouldn't be surprised if they all end up on Euston services

If Centro offer additional financial support for strengthening Cross-City services then I can't see LM turning it down in favour of using more carriages on Euston services. LM were going to order 28 new carriages initially (just for Euston services) so maybe Centro did something to get that up to 40 and to include Cross-City services.