Northern Overcrowding

[Gricer99]

Even if every 769 died for a whole week, just how many services across the network would be reduced to 2-car because of that?

Its not just the 769s that are failing with alarming regularity And being replaced with 2 car 150s. The main rush hour Blackpool to Manchester Airport which is normally a standing room only 6 car 331 has been only 3 car so far this week.
Rather than take this Covid Express I took the car.

 

[david1212]

Northern seem to be blaming the 769s. Not sure what will happen if the problems are not solved.

Even if every 769 died for a whole week, just how many services across the network would be reduced to 2-car because of that?

I have no idea what the planned availability for the current timetable is.

To my thinking out of a fleet of 8 units expecting 6 to be available 18 hours a day 7 days a week would be 75% availability. For refurbished and updated unit that ought to be reasonable. Making a 7th available say 2 hours in the morning and 3 hours late afternoon / evening 5 days a week so routine checks and maintence outside these times and all weekend still leaves one on maintenance for longer jobs presuming contingency cover is from another class.

If the above was planned and if cover is by reducing planned 4-car diagrams to 2-car it would effectively by 12 diagrams running short formation - the six split and the six that were diagrammed 4-car 769. This presumes no contingency stock available.

 

[AM9]

I have no idea what the planned availability for the current timetable is.

To my thinking out of a fleet of 8 units expecting 6 to be available 18 hours a day 7 days a week would be 75% availability. For refurbished and updated unit that ought to be reasonable. Making a 7th available say 2 hours in the morning and 3 hours late afternoon / evening 5 days a week so routine checks and maintence outside these times and all weekend still leaves one on maintenance for longer jobs presuming contingency cover is from another class.

If the above was planned and if cover is by reducing planned 4-car diagrams to 2-car it would effectively by 12 diagrams running short formation - the six split and the six that were diagrammed 4-car 769. This presumes no contingency stock available.

My question was one of pure curiosity, - not a suggestion. The 769s have been around for over a year and I was just wondering whether, either through expediency or by intention to increase their running experience, a decision was made to run them (say) on Chat Moss ioonstead of the WCML up to Preston/Lancaster. I believe that they prototype was tested out in electric mode to a speed of 92mph and therefore should be as capable as a standard 319 to run MAN-LIV to timetable give that the timetable is achieved well at the moment (random failures and wrong kind of leaves excepted ).

 

[Wtloild]

The main rush hour Blackpool to Manchester Airport which is normally a standing room only 6 car 331 has been only 3 car so far this week.

Even as a 6-car, it can't cope with anything out of the ordinary. Sunday services are a joke & Saturday services are usually badly overcrowded.
Going back to the footballing theme, it can't cope with Bolton's or Blackpool's paltry league 1 crowds.
Manchester markets? Nah.
any sort of concert on at MEN or Etihad & you're very lucky to be able to even board, let alon get a seat.

 

[AM9]

Even as a 6-car, it can't cope with anything out of the ordinary. Sunday services are a joke & Saturday services are usually badly overcrowded.
Going back to the footballing theme, it can't cope with Bolton's or Blackpool's paltry league 1 crowds.
Manchester markets? Nah.
any sort of concert on at MEN or Etihad & you're very lucky to be able to even board, let alon get a seat.

The problem is that with an operation like Northern which is heavily subsidised just to provide the basic services that it needs, "anything out of the ordinary" would require a considerable investment and maintenance of staff and equipment required only for the events. Elsewhere, these types of events are dealt with by better managing the resources available for the baseline load of the network. Northern needs to do that a lot better.
As for getting seats after a major event, the passengers' expectations need to be managed, - obody leaves Wembley or The O2 assuming that a seat is a given, at least for the first few stations.

 

[Gaz55]

The York to Blackpool North seems to very busy on weekends at the moment, I get on at Mytholmroyd, I usually end up having to stand near one of the doors. It doesn't help when the party and hen/stag do crowd have bags on seats and in the aisle. To me, the three car 195s don't have sufficient capacity for the route.

 

[evergreenadam]

The problem is that with an operation like Northern which is heavily subsidised just to provide the basic services that it needs, "anything out of the ordinary" would require a considerable investment and maintenance of staff and equipment required only for the events. Elsewhere, these types of events are dealt with by better managing the resources available for the baseline load of the network. Northern needs to do that a lot better.
As for getting seats after a major event, the passengers' expectations need to be managed, - obody leaves Wembley or The O2 assuming that a seat is a given, at least for the first few stations.

Such as getting better availability out of the rolling stock?

 

[AM9]

Such as getting better availability out of the rolling stock?

No, it's about shaping services to run with the same assets normally used to best handle out of the ordinary demand. The rest is managing passenger expectations.

 

[gazzaa2]

An illustrated case of the problems caused by the 2 car Northern services, particularly on Saturdays in areas like the north east: https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/ne...on-ridiculously-packed-northern-train-3485486

This was then raised in parliament the other day: https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/ne...-packed-train-is-raised-in-parliament-3489001

 

[D6130]

There were similar problems last Saturday on the Huddersfield-Sheffield line, when Huddersfield Town were playing away at Barnsley and all the trains were allegedly formed only of two car 150s. If I knew how to do a link, I would post the scathing article in the Huddersfield Examiner and strongly-worded letters to the editor.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There were similar problems last Saturday on the Huddersfield-Sheffield line, when Huddersfield Town were playing away at Barnsley and all the trains were allegedly formed only of two car 150s. If I knew how to do a link, I would post the scathing article in the Huddersfield Examiner and strongly-worded letters to the editor.

Is this the one?

Huddersfield Town fan slams Northern Rail for 'dangerously overcrowded' train

The man and his daughter decided to not return by train, claiming passengers were 'crammed on like sardines'

www.examinerlive.co.uk

Huddersfield Town fan slams Northern Rail for 'dangerously overcrowded' train.

The man and his daughter decided to not return by train, claiming passengers were 'crammed on like sardines'.

A Huddersfield Town fan has slammed Northern Rail for running a 'dangerously overcrowded' train that had only two carriages.

Believe that a follow up on the story quotes Northern as claiming that the line can only have two carriages due to the size of Barnsley station.

 

[D6130]

Is this the one?

Yes, thanks, that's the one.

Believe that a follow up on the story quotes Northern as claiming that the line can only have two carriages due to the size of Barnsley station.

Although I never signed Barnsley as a driver, having travelled through it as a passenger on many occasions, I find that hard to believe. Am currently contacting various friends who still work for Northern and will report back.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yes, thanks, that's the one.

Although I never signed Barnsley as a driver, having travelled through it as a passenger on many occasions, I find that hard to believe. Am currently contacting various friends who still work for Northern and will report back.

Yesterday's 22.50 Huddersfield to Sheffield was 4 cars although I don't know if they were all in use.
Three car pacers were regular performers on Leeds and Huddersfield to Sheffield via Barnsley trains.

 

[D6130]

Having had a look at the Sectional Appendix, the down platform at Barnsley is163 metres long and the up 102 metres....so plenty of room for a four car train. The thought occurred to me later that the length restrictions may be because of the short platform at the fairly new station at Berry Brow....and indeed the bay platform at Huddersfield - but, by then, I didn't have time to scroll back through the SA. I find it hard to believe that Northern's planners were completely unaware of a local derby match being played, but it may just have been a case of no spare units being available.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Having had a look at the Sectional Appendix, the down platform at Barnsley is163 metres long and the up 102 metres....so plenty of room for a four car train. The thought occurred to me later that the length restrictions may be because of the short platform at the fairly new station at Berry Brow....and indeed the bay platform at Huddersfield - but, by then, I didn't have time to scroll back through the SA. I find it hard to believe that Northern's planners were completely unaware of a local derby match being played, but it may just have been a case of no spare units being available.

The bay platform at Huddersfield is quite restrictive but it was lengthened (end of 2019) to accommodate 2 car cl150 plus cl153 - I think as part of the same project any other short platforms on that route were also extended to accommodate that formation - maybe as suggested no spare cl153, or even one planned but then not available on the day.
A further lengthening at Huddersfield is (or certainly was) planned as part of the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade to take 4 cars.

In another part of Northern land, yesterday I saw the 15.21 Liverpool to Manchester Airport pass through Deansgate absolutely rammed, 2 car class 195, (not helped by cancellation of the stopper immediately ahead of it although numbers for the stopper at LSP, Warrington West and Central and Birchwood would I'd guess be pretty few with the much faster train arriving in Manchester just minutes behind). The back working is 16.47 ex Airport, 17.08 from Picc and 17.11 from Oxford Road, prime evening peak train (OK less commuters but probably still a very popular train). When TPE had that path from Picc it was a very busy 6 car cl 185 admittedly with including passengers from the other side of the Pennines (and Staly).

In contrast I caught the 16.24 Buxton from Picc (well actually from Stockport as I saw it leave Picc but was able to overtake it on the 16.27 XC) and it was a not at all busy 4 car class 150 - probably around 20 max in any one coach.

 

[evergreenadam]

The bay platform at Huddersfield is quite restrictive but it was lengthened (end of 2019) to accommodate 2 car cl150 plus cl153 - I think as part of the same project any other short platforms on that route were also extended to accommodate that formation - maybe as suggested no spare cl153, or even one planned but then not available on the day.
A further lengthening at Huddersfield is (or certainly was) planned as part of the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade to take 4 cars.

In another part of Northern land, yesterday I saw the 15.21 Liverpool to Manchester Airport pass through Deansgate absolutely rammed, 2 car class 195, (not helped by cancellation of the stopper immediately ahead of it although numbers for the stopper at LSP, Warrington West and Central and Birchwood would I'd guess be pretty few with the much faster train arriving in Manchester just minutes behind). The back working is 16.47 ex Airport, 17.08 from Picc and 17.11 from Oxford Road, prime evening peak train (OK less commuters but probably still a very popular train). When TPE had that path from Picc it was a very busy 6 car cl 185 admittedly with including passengers from the other side of the Pennines (and Staly).

In contrast I caught the 16.24 Buxton from Picc (well actually from Stockport as I saw it leave Picc but was able to overtake it on the 16.27 XC) and it was a not at all busy 4 car class 150 - probably around 20 max in any one coach.

Complaints about overcrowding on Liverpool to Manchester Airport services appear on Northern’s Twitter feed quite a lot. 2 car services are just ridiculous for that route.

 

[IanXC]

It's Huddersfield where the problem is. Platform 2 being limited to 150+153 (or perhaps one day 3 car 150).

That 2250 Huddersfield to Sheffield is planned to use platform 4 which can't generally happen during the day as the Piccadilly stopper is sat in that platform at that time.

There was also a special operated on the return trip, as I saw it changing ends at Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[jkkne]

An illustrated case of the problems caused by the 2 car Northern services, particularly on Saturdays in areas like the north east: https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/ne...on-ridiculously-packed-northern-train-3485486

This was then raised in parliament the other day: https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/ne...-packed-train-is-raised-in-parliament-3489001

To think the North East gets anything as fancy as the unit in the article. The vestibule areas in the 156/8s are non existent and there’s no luggage storage at all, which doesn’t really aid the touristy Hadrians Wall stops.

The whole North East network is pretty much crush loaded on a weekend these days. The Pacers were much better to stand on. Things have definitely gotten worse since they were withdrawn

 

[Moonshot]

Very few conductors working overtime today.......a lot of services cancelled, which will put pressure on the ones that do run