Northern Overcrowding

[Mcr Warrior]

The class 769's have been a disaster...

Are they the refurbished Class 319 units once used by Thameslink down South? What's been the main issues?

 

[david1212]

Are they the refurbished Class 319 units once used by Thameslink down South? What's been the main issues?

Class 769 are a class 319 with two diesel engines and generators / alternators to replicate the third rail supply.

A description is here

As to the issues dip into this thread which is over 200 pages ...

 

[AM9]

One cause goes back that when the franchise was re-tendered in 2004 it was on a no-growth basis so no new rolling stock was specified and that subsequently but before the stage IIIB diesel emissions deadline no new stock was voluntarily ordered. Further once new stock was ordered driven by the PRM deadline and route electrification there was not major fleet expansion.

The class 769's have been a disaster and their have been training delays from the Covid pandemic but regardless more stock should have been ordered so trains could be of adequate length / number of seats.

What type of "more stock" should have been ordered?

 

[Kite159]

What type of "more stock" should have been ordered?

Class 172s when Bombardier had the order book open

 

[bramling]

Class 172s when Bombardier had the order book open

With hindsight it’s a shame more 170s weren’t procured at the time they were in production. I think I’m right in saying they were long finished by time Northern came into being?

We’re possibly fortunate that Central Trains ordered so many. Derided CT were, they weren’t by any means all bad.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With hindsight it’s a shame more 170s weren’t procured at the time they were in production. I think I’m right in saying they were long finished by time Northern came into being?

We’re possibly fortunate that Central Trains ordered so many. Derided CT were, they weren’t by any means all bad.

Extra 172s would be more useful than 170s wouldn't they? Am I right in thinking they're more efficient at lower speeds, and quicker off the mark due to having a different transmission?

Had the SRA proposal for additional vehicles gone ahead, 172s (along with 4th cars for some of the 185s on TPE) would have been the likely outcome.

 

[AM9]

Class 172s when Bombardier had the order book open

@david1212 was referring to cclass 769's shortfalls when he suggested that ordering more stock was a solution. By the time that the 769s were being tested, new turbostars weren't an option. Furthermore, two years ago, the mistake of purchasing more pure DMUs that with their complete lack of convertability would be committing the railway to running mobile CO2 and NOx generators for the next 30+ years had become rather embarassing with the introduction of the 195s.
If those in the position of specifier and purchaser of stock to replace the ageing Pacers, Sprinters and soon Turbostars, had the environmental foresight to see that DMUs are near to obsolescent, a sensible DEMU/Bi-Mode design that would serve all UK non-EMU requirements would now be well into their delivery programme, and the 769 saga might not have happened. DEMUs are not space-age technology (the first thumpers were introduced 64 years ago), and there have been many other designs running successfully for decades elsewhere in Europe. Similarly, Bi-Modes, based on those other DEMUs have also been part of some vendors ranges (including CAF) at the time the 195s were ordered in early 2017.

 

[david1212]

@david1212 was referring to cclass 769's shortfalls when he suggested that ordering more stock was a solution. By the time that the 769s were being tested, new turbostars weren't an option. Furthermore, two years ago, the mistake of purchasing more pure DMUs that with their complete lack of convertability would be committing the railway to running mobile CO2 and NOx generators for the next 30+ years had become rather embarassing with the introduction of the 195s.
If those in the position of specifier and purchaser of stock to replace the ageing Pacers, Sprinters and soon Turbostars, had the environmental foresight to see that DMUs are near to obsolescent, a sensible DEMU/Bi-Mode design that would serve all UK non-EMU requirements would now be well into their delivery programme, and the 769 saga might not have happened. DEMUs are not space-age technology (the first thumpers were introduced 64 years ago), and there have been many other designs running successfully for decades elsewhere in Europe. Similarly, Bi-Modes, based on those other DEMUs have also been part of some vendors ranges (including CAF) at the time the 195s were ordered in early 2017.

Your point is valid as even if they worked a small fleet of 8 class 769's were too little too late. Most of the others who responded did however read my post as I intended given the previous paragraph referred to both the re-tendering in 2004 and while I didn't state a year before stage IIIB emissions regulations.

As posted mechanically the Cl 170 DMU is not suited to services with short distances between stops so of what was either in production or could have been produced to an existing design the Cl 172 to me would have been the obvious choice. In terms of fleet size sufficient for all off-peak services to be operated with adequate capacity without using the 14x pacers. Then at peak times the pacers would have come out in multiple to run the shortest routes with other stock used to increase capacity on the longer routes. Also however the exact fleet was allocated the pacers would allow strengthed services for sports fixtures and other events.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There's an ongoing pandemic that's been going on for nearly two years. Shortage of drivers (recruitment and training backlog), shortage of units due to maintenance backlogs (reduced fitters and other staff in depots), reduced planners (working from home isn't as easy as in the office). Planners also having to cater for the reduced maintenance of the infrastructure due to backlogs.
Plus a shortage of money

 

[AM9]

Your point is valid as even if they worked a small fleet of 8 class 769's were too little too late. Most of the others who responded did however read my post as I intended given the previous paragraph referred to both the re-tendering in 2004 and while I didn't state a year before stage IIIB emissions regulations.

I'm not sure what you mean in the above words, but my comment referred to the ordering of class 195 diesel-only trains in 2017, by which time the impact of diesel pollutants on the local and global environment were well known, even concerning stock that complied to Euro IIIB standards.

 

[david1212]

There's an ongoing pandemic that's been going on for nearly two years. Shortage of drivers (recruitment and training backlog), shortage of units due to maintenance backlogs (reduced fitters and other staff in depots), reduced planners (working from home isn't as easy as in the office). Planners also having to cater for the reduced maintenance of the infrastructure due to backlogs.
Plus a shortage of money

Indeed but the current situation would be much better if two years ago Northern had enough drivers to run the full timetable without overtime / rest day working and enough stock to run the timetable published then with adequate train lengths.

 

[AM9]

Indeed but the current situation would be much better if two years ago Northern had enough drivers to run the full timetable without overtime / rest day working and enough stock to run the timetable published then with adequate train lengths.

That I would agree with but Northern have form with staffing levels, as do many other TOCs. Thameslink, my local went through a famine to the detriment of services on TL, and we had enoungh 8 & 12-car trains but insufficent drivers with the correct signing authority.

 

[david1212]

I'm not sure what you mean in the above words, but my comment referred to the ordering of class 195 diesel-only trains in 2017, by which time the impact of diesel pollutants on the local and global environment were well known, even concerning stock that complied to Euro IIIB standards.

What I meant was that well before Euro IIIB standards came into force Northern needed a significantly larger fleet to run the full timetable with all trains having adequate capacity - I really can't word this another way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2021 ==

That I would agree with but Northern have form with staffing levels, as do many other TOCs. Thameslink, my local went through a famine to the detriment of services on TL, and we had enoungh 8 & 12-car trains but insufficent drivers with the correct signing authority.

Indeed Northern are not unique in this. Local to home in the West Midlands two years ago there were and still are too few drivers to run the Sunday service without rest day working but this thread is specifically about Northern.

 

[evergreenadam]

Northern Twitter feed had complaints about overcrowding on Manchester-Liverpool (hourly service), Sheffield-Nottingham (two car service) and Wakefield-Leeds services yesterday.

 

[GoneSouth]

3 for 2 I believe. For every 3 first gen vehicles pulled netted 2 sprinter vehicles added, iirc.

Does that include pacers … for every 3 trains scrapped we got 2 buses that were more uncomfortable than actual buses in return?

 

[Mat17]

Does that include pacers … for every 3 trains scrapped we got 2 buses that were more uncomfortable than actual buses in return?

Possibly. Although, don't quote me on that.

It's true the Pacers were a step down in quality from the first gen DMUs (except perhaps the Cravens, which were on a par).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Northern Twitter feed had complaints about overcrowding on Manchester-Liverpool (hourly service), Sheffield-Nottingham (two car service) and Wakefield-Leeds services yesterday.

BIB No doubt strongly influenced by current EMR and (to lesser extent) CrossCountry reductions on this corridor. Manchester-Liverpool also suffering with EMR and Transpennine issues. Not really a very clear picture at the moment, hence not really a basis for just going out and building more trains and lengthening platforms.

 

[Foxcover]

Northern Twitter feed had complaints about overcrowding on Manchester-Liverpool (hourly service), Sheffield-Nottingham (two car service) and Wakefield-Leeds services yesterday.

Manchester-Liverpool on a Sunday is currently an appalling service abandonment by the operators - if you’re at Piccadilly, which most people are, it‘s just an hourly unstrengthened 319 stopper, with a fast every 3 hours if you’re lucky.

I have given up on the Sunday railway in the northwest now; I’m currently in central Manchester - really busy place again with the Christmas markets - having driven daughter from the Wirral to where she needs to be (5 min from Piccadilly) and will drive her back later. Goodness knows how many people are doing the same and won’t return to the railway. Last Sunday it was the same situation; we drove home past Piccadilly platforms 13/14 and could see how ridiculously overcrowded it was just before the one Liverpool train was due.

 

[Prunes]

Indeed but the current situation would be much better if two years ago Northern had enough drivers to run the full timetable without overtime / rest day working and enough stock to run the timetable published then with adequate train lengths.

When I was doing a lot of work up in Manchester in early 2019, I had my train (run by Northern) cancelled twice in the same month due to a driver shortage. That's what you get for operating on the fringe!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that include pacers … for every 3 trains scrapped we got 2 buses that were more uncomfortable than actual buses in return?

They were the same as buses of their era. And in many ways better than first generation DMUs.

 

[david1212]

It started before privatisation. Sprinterisation replaced every 2 heritage DMU or LHCS vehicles with 1 Sprinter vehicle (or something along those lines).

....

The figures I used were hypothetical, but my point was that outside of the intercity and former NSE operations, the railway is expected to "do more with less" to paraphrase season 5 of The Wire.

3 for 2 I believe. For every 3 first gen vehicles pulled netted 2 sprinter vehicles added, iirc.

Does that include pacers … for every 3 trains scrapped we got 2 buses that were more uncomfortable than actual buses in return?

Possibly. Although, don't quote me on that.

It's true the Pacers were a step down in quality from the first gen DMUs (except perhaps the Cravens, which were on a par).

Regardless of the fine detail 40 years ago rail use was in decline and there was no environmental pressure to get people onto public transport. Even more than now infrastructure spending was mostly on the roads.

Whether Margaret Thatcher actually said something close to " Anyone over the age of 25 who can not drive and does not own a car is a failure " is uncertain but it certainly reflects the general attitude at the time.

For rail the options were either accept the Pacers in lower numbers than the stock they were replacing, and remember some first generation DMU sets were already running as shorter formations than when introduced, or the passenger service is withdrawn.

By 15 years ago passenger numbers were increasing and better quality stock in greater numbers than the 14x Pacers was needed together with enough staff to roster a seven day per week service but nothing was done.

 

[Moonshot]

Manchester-Liverpool on a Sunday is currently an appalling service abandonment by the operators - if you’re at Piccadilly, which most people are, it‘s just an hourly unstrengthened 319 stopper, with a fast every 3 hours if you’re lucky.

I have given up on the Sunday railway in the northwest now; I’m currently in central Manchester - really busy place again with the Christmas markets - having driven daughter from the Wirral to where she needs to be (5 min from Piccadilly) and will drive her back later. Goodness knows how many people are doing the same and won’t return to the railway. Last Sunday it was the same situation; we drove home past Piccadilly platforms 13/14 and could see how ridiculously overcrowded it was just before the one Liverpool train was due.

Northern cannot run more than a skeleton service on a Sunday due to staffing constraints.......Sundays are overtime for all staff this side of the Pennines. Whilst there are plans afoot to change that, its not going to happen for a while, and will be dependent on a staff ballot which is likely to be rejected.

 

[evergreenadam]

Regardless of the fine detail 40 years ago rail use was in decline and there was no environmental pressure to get people onto public transport. Even more than now infrastructure spending was mostly on the roads.

Whether Margaret Thatcher actually said something close to " Anyone over the age of 25 who can not drive and does not own a car is a failure " is uncertain but it certainly reflects the general attitude at the time.

For rail the options were either accept the Pacers in lower numbers than the stock they were replacing, and remember some first generation DMU sets were already running as shorter formations than when introduced, or the passenger service is withdrawn.

By 15 years ago passenger numbers were increasing and better quality stock in greater numbers than the 14x Pacers was needed together with enough staff to roster a seven day per week service but nothing was done.

The no growth Northern franchise was a massive mistake by New Labour who thought they could take the north for granted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

Complaints about overcrowding posted on Northern’s Twitter feed on Sunday in relation to Blackpool North to Manchester Oxford Road, Preston to Manchester Airport (two car service), Levenshulme-Manchester and Romiley-Manchester (two car service).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The no growth Northern franchise was a massive mistake by New Labour who thought they could take the north for granted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

Complaints about overcrowding posted on Northern’s Twitter feed on Sunday in relation to Blackpool North to Manchester Oxford Road, Preston to Manchester Airport (two car service), Levenshulme-Manchester and Romiley-Manchester (two car service).

With such low levels of service operating on Sundays having single 2 car units out is really inexcusable.

 

[The Lad]

Since many of the Pacers were made available to heritage operations for the cost of 'postage' does anyone have any idea how much the lease costs were at the end?

 

[gazzaa2]

2 car trains becoming the norm now on many northern routes with a 4 car the jackpot.

Is this just how it's going to be now, or is there more trains on the way? Get the pacers back if not to make up 4 car services.

 

[evergreenadam]

2 car trains becoming the norm now on many northern routes with a 4 car the jackpot.

Is this just how it's going to be now, or is there more trains on the way? Get the pacers back if not to make up 4 car services.

Northern seem to be blaming the 769s. Not sure what will happen if the problems are not solved.

 

[AM9]

Northern seem to be blaming the 769s. Not sure what will happen if the problems are not solved.

Even if every 769 died for a whole week, just how many services across the network would be reduced to 2-car because of that?

 

[evergreenadam]

Even if every 769 died for a whole week, just how many services across the network would be reduced to 2-car because of that?

That would indeed be interesting to know. Seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors going on.

 

[Wtloild]

Isn't that just 21st century businesses in general? - never anything in reserve, no contingencies.