Northern New Fleet and Cascade allocations (speculation).

[py_megapixel]

I’d reckon the Hope Valley could do with some BEMUs.

The problem is the current Northern services on the Hope Valley all run via Romiley and Marple so the only electrified line is between Ashburys and Manchester Piccadilly. In the best case, assuming pan up/down on the move at Ashburys, we are looking at about 25 mins charging for each 80-ish mile round-trip. In the worst case where the pantograph only goes up in the Piccadilly trainshed it could be much less.

I'm sure it'll happen eventually - it's certainly achievable with improving technology and possibly some rearrangement of the timetable - but I think there are far lower-hanging fruit first, Buxton and Windermere being two examples that spring to mind

331s don’t serve the Glossop and Hadfield Line, that’s only class 323s

They're not the usual traction but I believe they've made it up there from time to time without issue.

 

[rapmastaj]

Leeds to Chester could be another contender for MMUs

 

[Charlie978]

Leeds to Chester could be another contender for MMUs

I’d have thought the Leeds - Wigan would be higher up as it will use wires through to Mirfield. Infact it will probably need to be an MMU post TRU if it is going to keep its stops east of Ravensthorpe.

 

[amahy]

Leeds to Chester could be another contender for MMUs

I’d have thought the Leeds - Wigan would be higher up as it will use wires through to Mirfield. Infact it will probably need to be an MMU post TRU if it is going to keep its stops east of Ravensthorpe.

Pretty sure Leeds to Chester will be the priority, as Manchester Victoria to Warrington BQ (21 miles) is a longer mileage than Leeds to Mirfield + Manchester Vic to Salford Crescent (14 miles).

 

[Halish Railway]

I’d have thought the Leeds - Wigan would be higher up as it will use wires through to Mirfield. Infact it will probably need to be an MMU post TRU if it is going to keep its stops east of Ravensthorpe.

It’s pretty likely that it’ll run non-stop from Dewsbury to Leeds seeing as the Huddersfield to Leeds service will increase to 2tph. Not having any intermediate stops will provide a lot more flexibility in pathing the service along the busy 2 track section which shouldn’t be too much of a task with a Class 195.

 

[rattyben]

Worth noting that the Durham Coast route on its own doesn't require nearly so many actual unit diagrams, of course - So far as I can establish from Realtime Trains, there are essentially 8 x 2-car all day diagrams for that line, though in reality there is some unit rotation over the course of the day.

Heaton's allocation, at my count, is a total of 34 class 156s, of which 23 are currently required in service on North East diagrams (including the 3 presently in use on the truncated Carlisle - Whitehaven Cumbrian Coast service), and 17 class 158s, of which 9 are required in service.

Essentially, 58 class 195s would more than cover the unit requirement in the North East while allowing for a useful capacity uplift to 3-car and additional 4-car formations.

Thanks.

Some of those 2 car 156s are severely overcrowded so hopefully they factor that in with whatever happens.

With the 2 car 195s getting coupled up to 4 does this not present issue with fare evasion? I’ve noticed on overcrowded services tickets are never checked and many stations still have no barriers.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

The problem is the current Northern services on the Hope Valley all run via Romiley and Marple so the only electrified line is between Ashburys and Manchester Piccadilly. In the best case, assuming pan up/down on the move at Ashburys, we are looking at about 25 mins charging for each 80-ish mile round-trip. In the worst case where the pantograph only goes up in the Piccadilly trainshed it could be much less.

I'm sure it'll happen eventually - it's certainly achievable with improving technology and possibly some rearrangement of the timetable - but I think there are far lower-hanging fruit first, Buxton and Windermere being two examples that spring to mind


They're not the usual traction but I believe they've made it up there from time to time without issue.

Could the battery’s on the BEMUs charge while standby a Piccadilly, as some are there for around 20 minutes before departure. But then the problem will be how much charge is left at Sheffield.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2025 ==

Thanks.

Some of those 2 car 156s are severely overcrowded so hopefully they factor that in with whatever happens.

With the 2 car 195s getting coupled up to 4 does this not present issue with fare evasion? I’ve noticed on overcrowded services tickets are never checked and many stations still have no barriers.

Hopefully this won’t be the case soon, a four car MMU could be allocated

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2025 ==

I figured this needed its own thread.


Why would the North East need the MMU's quite early on?
There's hardly much distance under wires covered as part of most diagrams up there, just the Newcastle - Morpeth part of the Morpeth - Carlisle and the few per day direct Darlington - Newcastle via Durham.


Buxton has been shown on Stakeholder Presentations for the first 8 4 car Battery units, which I think is perfect for them, plenty of time under the wires between Hazel Grove and Manchester (especially on the diagrams that do a mini-trip to Hazel Grove before going to Buxton). It looks like there are about 5 Buxton diagrams (hard to figure out with the peak time strengthening, which wouldn't be needed with fixed length 4 cars).

I think Windermere (and by extension Barrow[1]) are pretty clear contenders for Multi-Mode units, Windermere - Manchester Airport is 92 miles, only 10 of which don't have wires[2], and Barrow is 69 of 98 miles Electrified), which would free up 195s to cascade 158s (e.g. Wigan - Leeds) onto 150/156 diagrams to go to scrap.

The Southport services are prime for multi-mode trains, it already has them (they just need to not break down every day), I could easily see a 1 for 1 replacement of 769 by MMU (if they last into the 2030s)

In addition I think Sheffield-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate, with wires until Fitzwilliam / South Kirkby Junction (20 miles of 39 electrified) is in for a shot, but I think that depends on platform capacity issues at Leeds being dealt with so longer trains can be used.

[1] Future of this service probably depends on how the Whitehaven tunnel gets dealt with, that already has its own speculative thread.
[2] They shuttle back and forth to Oxenholme for 2 hours before going back, but they've got diesel engines if the battery drops too low and can top it up at Oxenholme if 60 miles without a charge is too far.

Anyone else got any ideas for good contenders for early replacement with multi-mode trains?

When ordering the 195s, I’m not sure why they didn’t consider bi mode trains for services like this

 

[JamesT]

When ordering the 195s, I’m not sure why they didn’t consider bi mode trains for services like this

The 195s were part of the 2015 franchise bid, where the requirement was replacing the Pacers. A bi-mode would probably have blown the budget. There was also the introduction of the 769s after the delay to electrification.
Ten years on and with much more experience in the industry of running bi-modes then you’d consider them now. But it’s not unreasonable that they didn’t make the cut last time.

 

[Snex]

Worth noting that the Durham Coast route on its own doesn't require nearly so many actual unit diagrams, of course - So far as I can establish from Realtime Trains, there are essentially 8 x 2-car all day diagrams for that line, though in reality there is some unit rotation over the course of the day.

Heaton's allocation, at my count, is a total of 34 class 156s, of which 23 are currently required in service on North East diagrams (including the 3 presently in use on the truncated Carlisle - Whitehaven Cumbrian Coast service), and 17 class 158s, of which 9 are required in service.

Essentially, 58 class 195s would more than cover the unit requirement in the North East while allowing for a useful capacity uplift to 3-car and additional 4-car formations.

Surely other services need DMU's more than the North East such as Hull/Bridlington to York and the Cumbrian Coast services which have next to zero wiring either.

In the North East surely these services could make an argument:
Newcastle - Morpeth
Newcastle - Hexham
Newcastle - Ashington

They're all quite short services and the case of Morpeth and Ashington are under the wires for a quite a bit aswell and all seem to be the sort of services prime for BEMU if the tech improved. Believe all 3 are self contained now.

Then everything else with the Class 195's.

 

[geoffk]

If the Wigan area services are reconfigured to operate Wigan NW - Bolton - Stalybridge and Southport - Atherton - Victoria/Oxford Road, won't that eliminate the 769s? If more emus are needed, then there are a few 323s in store until new trains become available and these could also operate the Newcastle - Morpeth/Chathill service, since these no longer serve Metro Centre.

 

[Anvil1984]

these could also operate the Newcastle - Morpeth/Chathill service, since these no longer serve Metro Centre.

Reminder 323s can’t do the Morpeth services, the turnback sidings aren’t electrified and the loops north of the station either don’t have the signalling / or crossover at the south end (depending on which loop) to permit terminating in those

 

[geoffk]

Reminder 323s can’t do the Morpeth services, the turnback sidings aren’t electrified and the loops north of the station either don’t have the signalling / or crossover at the south end (depending on which loop) to permit terminating in those

Thanks. A shame the turnback siding wasn't thought about when the wiring went up. The same for Chathill/Crag Mill loop?

 

[Anvil1984]

Thanks. A shame the turnback siding wasn't thought about when the wiring went up. The same for Chathill/Crag Mill loop?

Belford / Crag Mill Loops are wired but I doubt there’s paths for additionals up there at present even with faster units

 

[CharlieRWalker]

Worth noting that whilst everyone on here assumes the 195s will come to the North East this entails a massive training need for train crews. (2 to 3 weeks per driver). Northern are unlikely to want to run that course side by side with the new trains courses as theyll be swamped.

Note that the bid northern placed stated must fit in the same gauge clearance as 15x. Also worth noting that Durham Coast, Ashington and Tyne Valley desperately need additional capacity that the MMUs will bring and the better acceleration that comes with the new units will massively improve performance reliability. Passenger Growth in the north east is current massive and all the investments in the North East are to further improve the network.

Its worth noting that 158s are also intended to be replaced by the MMUs, as well as 170s and many others, just that 150/5/6 are the priorities.

Just because the MMU can run on the wires, doesn't mean they have to be under the wires during the day. They can easily service none electrified routes with the diesel generators. Additionally, with the North East currently having the worst fare evasion issues with the lack or ticket barriers anywhere other than Darlington, Hartlepool and Newcastle its unlikely they'll move 195s to the N.E. as this wouldn't assist in resolving those issues. Especially as they would have to work in multiple to provide the necessary capacity.

Finally, Heaton is already being gradually being upgraded to be able to accept the new units which suggests they will be receiving them. My suspicion will be the MMUs will be allocated to the N.E. fairly early on with the average depot fleet age being over 40 years old by the time of delivery and 158s relocated south in the short term to displace 150s and 155s.
I suspect Newton Heath will also receive them early doors to replace their 150 and 156s.

 

[Anvil1984]

Worth noting that whilst everyone on here assumes the 195s will come to the North East this entails a massive training need for train crews. (2 to 3 weeks per driver). Northern are unlikely to want to run that course side by side with the new trains courses as theyll be swamped.

Note that the bid northern placed stated must fit in the same gauge clearance as 15x. Also worth noting that Durham Coast, Ashington and Tyne Valley desperately need additional capacity that the MMUs will bring and the better acceleration that comes with the new units will massively improve performance reliability. Passenger Growth in the north east is current massive and all the investments in the North East are to further improve the network.

Its worth noting that 158s are also intended to be replaced by the MMUs, as well as 170s and many others, just that 150/5/6 are the priorities.

Just because the MMU can run on the wires, doesn't mean they have to be under the wires during the day. They can easily service none electrified routes with the diesel generators. Additionally, with the North East currently having the worst fare evasion issues with the lack or ticket barriers anywhere other than Darlington, Hartlepool and Newcastle its unlikely they'll move 195s to the N.E. as this wouldn't assist in resolving those issues. Especially as they would have to work in multiple to provide the necessary capacity.

Finally, Heaton is already being gradually being upgraded to be able to accept the new units which suggests they will be receiving them. My suspicion will be the MMUs will be allocated to the N.E. fairly early on with the average depot fleet age being over 40 years old by the time of delivery and 158s relocated south in the short term to displace 150s and 155s.
I suspect Newton Heath will also receive them early doors to replace their 150 and 156s.

Whilst I agree with most of what you say it’s almost worth remembering that Heaton don’t just do units for the North East but those that work along Cumbrian Coast amongst other lines.

I do think Heaton will get a small allocation of 195s for Carlisle - Whitehaven - Barrow with Newcastle and Carlisle crews learning them for a couple of Tyne Valley diagrams to swap them over

 

[Charlie978]

Whilst I agree with most of what you say it’s almost worth remembering that Heaton don’t just do units for the North East but those that work along Cumbrian Coast amongst other lines.

I do think Heaton will get a small allocation of 195s for Carlisle - Whitehaven - Barrow with Newcastle and Carlisle crews learning them for a couple of Tyne Valley diagrams to swap them over

I thought the 195s were too wide to run up past Maryport?

If the new MMUs are specified to the same dimensions as the 15xs (would have to be 156 to run on the Cumbrian coast) then I see no reason why Heaton couldn’t go over to being fully new units.

 

[skyhigh]

Worth noting that whilst everyone on here assumes the 195s will come to the North East this entails a massive training need for train crews.

The phase 1 planned DMU cascade is essentially:

Newton Heath
150s withdrawn & replaced with the new MMUs
156s withdrawn & replaced with the new MMUs
195s transferred to other depots & replaced with the new MMUs.

Neville Hill
150s withdrawn & replaced with cascaded 195s
Some 158s transferred to Heaton & replaced with cascaded 195s.

Hull
155s withdrawn & replaced with 195s.

Heaton
156s withdrawn & replaced with 158s & some new MMUs.

It's not currently planned for 195s to go to Heaton.

 

[Halish Railway]

I would assume that Heaton’s allocation is dependent on whether the proposal to introduce a service from Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Durham goes ahead. Should that happen it would be worth using MMUs for that route and Newcastle to Morpeth.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The phase 1 planned DMU cascade is essentially:

Newton Heath
150s withdrawn & replaced with the new MMUs
156s withdrawn & replaced with the new MMUs
195s transferred to other depots & replaced with the new MMUs.

Neville Hill
150s withdrawn & replaced with cascaded 195s
Some 158s transferred to Heaton & replaced with cascaded 195s.

Hull
155s withdrawn & replaced with 195s.

Heaton
156s withdrawn & replaced with 158s & some new MMUs.

It's not currently planned for 195s to go to Heaton.

Ooh thanks for the info.
Looks like there'll be plenty of action going on at Newton Heath - very good for me since I get a lot of trains based out of there.

Presumably that means either the MMUs or 158s will have to get cleared for the Cumbrian Coast.



I think as things stand:
Hull (15) - 155 (7), 170 (16)
Heaton (51) - 156 (35), 158 (16)
Newton Heath (131) - 150 (41), 156 (32), 195 (58)
Neville Hill (97) - 150/0 (8), 150/1 and /2 (25), 158 2 car (29), 158 3 car (8), 331/0 (13), 333 (16)
Allerton (72) - 323 (34), 331/0 (18), 331/1 (12), 769 (8)

I'm not exactly sure how many 156/158s are Heaton Based vs Newton Heath/Neville Hill, but the others are accurate as to the best of my knowledge.
I think the 158s swap around sometimes, I've not travelled in the North East pretty much at all but I've ticked all but 1 off as ridden.

Thanks to @sprinterguy for 156/158 numbers

 

[Snex]

I would assume that Heaton’s allocation is dependent on whether the proposal to introduce a service from Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Durham goes ahead. Should that happen it would be worth using MMUs for that route and Newcastle to Morpeth.

I'd assume Ashington to Newcastle will get them aswell. The faster acceleration on the ECML would be helpful, especially since they crawl onto it from Benton Junction. It's also the pet project lately and is desperate for extra capacity.

 

[Anvil1984]

I'd assume Ashington to Newcastle will get them aswell. The faster acceleration on the ECML would be helpful, especially since they crawl onto it from Benton Junction.

The added acceleration would be useful for the intermediate stops but Benton Junction to Manors would be negligible as the line speed is 25 until the full train has got over the points onto the ECML and half of the time you still have to crawl as you’re on a single yellow due to a slightly late express on the mainline

If Northern get them then yes I would expect them to go on Ashington too alongside the majority of Heaton work

 

[dodecahedron67]

I seem to remember there's a problem with 195s in the North East due to gaps between train and platform too at various locations. Might be nothing, but ISTR it being mentioned when I was up at Heaton once

 

[Bletchleyite]

The phase 1 planned DMU cascade is essentially:

Newton Heath
150s withdrawn & replaced with the new MMUs
156s withdrawn & replaced with the new MMUs
195s transferred to other depots & replaced with the new MMUs.

That's quite interesting - so all North West services presently DMU will be new MMUs, including stuff like the "Lancashire triangle"? That's quite surprising, I had always thought 2 car 195s were built for this sort of line and this was why there were 2s rather than them being 3s and 4s.

 

[Anvil1984]

I seem to remember there's a problem with 195s in the North East due to gaps between train and platform too at various locations. Might be nothing, but ISTR it being mentioned when I was up at Heaton once

People assume because of the curvature of Hartlepool that all non end door units are and will forever be banned when there are far curvier stations that see them. That comes up a lot

 

[Bletchleyite]

People assume because of the curvature of Hartlepool that all non end door units are and will forever be banned when there are far curvier stations that see them. That comes up a lot

End doored units are not an option if level boarding is specified anyway. And I believe it is?

In any case gap bridges solve that issue a different way.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That's quite interesting - so all North West services presently DMU will be new MMUs, including stuff like the "Lancashire triangle"? That's quite surprising, I had always thought 2 car 195s were built for this sort of line and this was why there were 2s rather than them being 3s and 4s.

Could be possible to outstation a couple 195/0s around Preston (maybe at Blackburn?) and rotate them to/from Neville Hill via Blackpool - York services (although those will probably see some MMUs)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could be possible to outstation a couple 195/0s around Preston (maybe at Blackburn?) and rotate them to/from Neville Hill via Blackpool - York services (although those will probably see some MMUs)?

Where does Barrow sit in all this? Is it an outstation of Newton Heath? 3 car MMUs round the Cumbrian Coast seems a bit overkill, though it might I suppose depend on whether Bransty Tunnel eventually gets fixed or not. If it doesn't, then the logical pattern would be to continue Newcastle-Carlisle on to Whitehaven using Heaton units and to run Corkickle through to Manchester Airport using MMUs rather than having a Barrow split. But if we do go back to a Barrow split and through services, 2-car 195s would seem sensible, subject to a small amount of clearance work at the top end?

 

[sprinterguy]

Ooh thanks for the info.
Looks like there'll be plenty of action going on at Newton Heath - very good for me since I get a lot of trains based out of there.

Presumably that means either the MMUs or 158s will have to get cleared for the Cumbrian Coast.



I think as things stand:
Hull (15) - 155 (7), 170 (16)
Heaton (?) - 156 (?), 158 (?)
Newton Heath (99+?) - 150 (41), 156 (?), 195 (58)
Neville Hill (54+?) - 150/0 (8), 150/1 and /2 (25), 158 2 car (?), 158 3 car (8), 331/0 (13)
Allerton (72) - 323 (34), 331/0 (18), 331/1 (12), 769 (8)

I'm not exactly sure how many 156/158s are Heaton Based vs Newton Heath/Neville Hill, but the others are accurate as to the best of my knowledge.
I think the 158s swap around sometimes, I've not travelled in the North East pretty much at all but I've ticked all but 1 off as ridden.

35 class 156s and 16 class 158s at Heaton, 29 2-car class 158s at Neville Hill and 32 class 156s allocated to Newton Heath.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Where does Barrow sit in all this? Is it an outstation of Newton Heath? 3 car MMUs round the Cumbrian Coast seems a bit overkill, though it might I suppose depend on whether Bransty Tunnel eventually gets fixed or not. If it doesn't, then the logical pattern would be to continue Newcastle-Carlisle on to Whitehaven using Heaton units and to run Corkickle through to Manchester Airport using MMUs rather than having a Barrow split. But if we do go back to a Barrow split and through services, 2-car 195s would seem sensible, subject to a small amount of clearance work at the top end?

With the current tunnel closure, Barrow is associated to Newton Heath, but before it serviced trains based at Heaton too.
In theory with 195s based at Neville Hill it probably wouldn't be too difficult to run them across to Lancaster or Carlisle to run the coast from either end.

 

[Halish Railway]

People assume because of the curvature of Hartlepool that all non end door units are and will forever be banned when there are far curvier stations that see them. That comes up a lot

The curvature of platform 2 at Hartlepool must be less than that of platform 5 at Shipley as they are still able to fit in another track on the inside of the curve without creating gauging issues. Platform 5 at Shipley is served by the sister Class 331s without issue.

I would imagine that the 195s have been chosen to operate on busier unnelectrified railway lines where their excellent acceleration and deceleration is of good use, particularly the routes around Sheffield which are resourced from Neville Hill. By comparison most Heaton worked routes do not interact with other express passenger services.