Northern issue DO NOT TRAVEL message (23/08)

[Paul_10]

So we have gone from the extreme views of people being stranded is a bad thing adn they should sort themselves out

Toiletless trains blamed for forced door openings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80xzny1jr9o Apologies if this thread has already been created

www.railforums.co.uk

to this current thread where telling people not to travel so they dont get stranded is really bad?

Has any train been stranded for any huge amount of time?

The warning is OTT and certainly does not apply to the whole network. If the situation is as such that there is widespread flooding on the lines, trees down everywhere and mass delays/cancellations then by all mean issue such a warning.

As another poster says, expect possible(severe) delays on your journey today would probably be more appropriate.

 

[Northerngirl]

So we have gone from the extreme views of people being stranded is a bad thing adn they should sort themselves out

Toiletless trains blamed for forced door openings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80xzny1jr9o Apologies if this thread has already been created

www.railforums.co.uk

to this current thread where telling people not to travel so they dont get stranded is really bad?

Telling people there's a possibility that they will be stuck is different to a blanket no, and as long as people are told before they start their journey, then it's on them to decide

 

[bramling]

DO NOT TRAVEL
In my opinion it's very forcefull and strong, I'm sure they could get the point across without sounding angry at passengers

The problem is that a lot of people interpret this sort of thing as “Everyone else do not travel”.

Notwithstanding whether or not advising people not to travel is the right thing to do, if you are going to do that then it needs to be quite forceful, otherwise it’s not going to achieve anything.

I remember here a few years ago when there was (IIRC) a significant storm which occurred at a weekend. GTR ran an emergency timetable for the day, and advised people to make essential journeys only, and that there would be no guarantee of being able to get people back to their origins. Needless to say the morning trains were all stuffed with people making leisure trips from Cambridge, people actually making more important journeys from further in couldn’t even get on the trains, and needless to say by the evening a whole load of people were stranded all over the place.

 

[rower40]

Perhaps the advice should be "Please don't travel unless you have a chainsaw, appropriate PPE and training, and are prepared to use it if your train gets stuck...".

Then that explains the situation to those of us whose only use of tools at work is the unbent paper-clip pushed into the laptop's reset button.

 

[Bow Fell]

I think the only “overreaction” is by posters on here.

No one is physically stopping anyone from travelling.

Most of it really is common sense.

Need to get to work, important meeting, doctors/hospital appointment? Then absolutely you need to travel, but be prepared for disruption and depart earlier and expect to arrive later.

On the other hand, just going out for a day on the rails, travelling on trains? Meeting soneone for lunch, something that can be easily be rescheduled? Then, take that advice and maybe postpone until later or another day. If going out really is that essential, go for it. But again don’t be surprised if you get caught up in disruption.

To me, it really is that simple.

 

[Bayum]

So we have gone from the extreme views of people being stranded is a bad thing adn they should sort themselves out

Toiletless trains blamed for forced door openings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80xzny1jr9o Apologies if this thread has already been created

www.railforums.co.uk

to this current thread where telling people not to travel so they dont get stranded is really bad?

Quite.

 

[John R]

Waiting for the local train towards Stoke at Piccadilly this morning that didn’t appear and I was very unimpressed that it just disappeared off the board about 10 minutes after its scheduled departure time with not a mention on the screens or tannoy that it had been cancelled. It just disappeared, it was a non train, it ceased to exist…

 

[Bayum]

Put simply, I don’t think people see it as the bigger picture.

Stations and platforms can become very busy if trains are delayed or cancelled. If a train is delayed or ends up ‘stuck’ because of fallen debris this reduces the amount of people on the train and therefore needing evacuation etc. There’s a lot more to it than simply saying ‘the weather is bad, do not travel.’

DO NOT TRAVEL
In my opinion it's very forcefull and strong, I'm sure they could get the point across without sounding angry at passengers

How? What snappy phrase would you use that gets the point across clearly and concisely? Would you denounce a parent using the same phrase to a child so as to not touch something hot or dangerous?

 

[Re 4/4]

Also, if you have an advance ticket and they say "do not travel" I expect you would have a choice of a full refund or allow travel tomorrow on the same ticket?

Isn't "do not travel" actually customer-friendly in the sense of "if you choose not to travel, you get your money back"?

 

[daveo]

Perhaps the message has changed but all I can see on Journey Check at the moment is:



Which doesn't seem unreasonable advice?

I do think though that the industry as a whole, not just Northern, needs to get a bit better at this sort of thing. It does occasionally feel like we tip into "DO NOT TRAVEL" territory quite quickly when a more accurate message might well be: "There will be significant disruption today and your journey may be significantly delayed as a result. You may wish to defer your journey until either later today or until tomorrow, tickets valid today will be valid tomorrow to facilitate this".

And this delay will mean that we have to refund your full fare, whereas if you wait until tomorrow we keep the full amount.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

The departure board at Leeds doesn’t make for a pretty viewing.

The departure board (see photo in @londonmidland's post) says the 1153 (LNER) to Harrogate is cancelled, and adds "Passengers to board the next available LNER service". Why should passengers be told to wait at least two hours for the next LNER when there should be 4 Northern departures to Harrogate in the meantime? (Clearly not the 11:59.) Unless there's a good reason, it seems the one bit of apparently helpful extra info on the board is actually just trying to impose an unjustified additional restriction.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This has been entirely foreseeable! Train-crews have been complaining about the state of the lineside foliage and tree growth for years, and every year it gets worse. Some trees are growing a such an angle that they are only going to fall on to the tracks. It doesn't take much for a tree to fall and block the tracks these days because they have been left to grow so close to the line.
Hitting even a small tree at high speed is a scary experience for a driver.

Yes, it really needs tackling and getting on top of. I dread to think of a fatality (s) god forbid. The subsequent public enquiry - "well your honor we have been pointing this out for years"

Bird nesting season be damned. This needs to get sorted. (sorry for the rant)

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Extreme weather, my ****!

Here in the Barnsley area it's been a sunny, breezy late summers day. I've been out on a bike ride, dropped it off at the bike repair shop, then caught a bus home (no 'DO NOT TRAVEL!' warning on the buses strangely.). Now I'm off to Sheffield for a completely non-essential night out.

Yet this morning I was amazed to see that Northern's DO NOT TRAVEL!' extended to them cancelling all their fast trains from Leeds to Nottingham and Lincoln, even though EMR seemed to have run services on the same lines with minimal disruption.

The problem with Northern's extreme overreaction is of course the "cry wolf" effect. If, at some point in the future there is a period of genuinely extreme weather and Northern issue another DO NOT TRAVEL! warning, most people will assume they're exaggerating again and take no notice.

I wonder if Northern, or indeed the rail industry as a whole, reviews the advice they give passengers at times of disruption and in retrospect considers it disproportionate? Because whoever at Northern issued today's DO NOT TRAVEL! advice really does need to get a sense of perspective!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Extreme weather, my ****!

The problem with Northern's extreme overreaction is of course the "cry wolf" effect. If, at some point in the future there is a period of genuinely extreme weather and Northern issue another DO NOT TRAVEL! warning, most people will assume they're exaggerating again and take no notice.

That is an excellent point. I had not thought about that.

 

[ainsworth74]

And this delay will mean that we have to refund your full fare, whereas if you wait until tomorrow we keep the full amount.

If you've been delayed by 24 hours you're definetly due delay repay

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Workington - Carlisle line was flooded but looks like some services are now running but others are cancelled.

Assume this pic (Source: Network Rail tweet at 12.36)...

https://x.com/networkrail/status/1826946574120841621

...was apparently taken somewhere in Cumbria earlier today.

Anyone know where exactly?


(Pic of flooded railway tracks at a location somewhere in Cumbria.)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wow. Now that is serious flooding. How expensive would it be to overhaul the drainage system there I wonder?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Quite often the line near Aspatria resembles a canal.

 

[Ken H]

We had a 60km/h gust hit us near settle at 0600 this morning. Then the power went off till 11


Decimated Leeds - Carlisle trains.

 

[800001]

Assume this pic (Source: Network Rail tweet at 12.36)...

https://x.com/networkrail/status/1826946574120841621

...was apparently taken somewhere in Cumbria earlier today.

Anyone know where exactly?

View attachment 164191
(Pic of flooded railway tracks at a location somewhere in Cumbria.)

Wonder if that pump
Is already there or just been delivered?

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps the message has changed but all I can see on Journey Check at the moment is:



Which doesn't seem unreasonable advice?

I do think though that the industry as a whole, not just Northern, needs to get a bit better at this sort of thing. It does occasionally feel like we tip into "DO NOT TRAVEL" territory quite quickly when a more accurate message might well be: "There will be significant disruption today and your journey may be significantly delayed as a result. You may wish to defer your journey until either later today or until tomorrow, tickets valid today will be valid tomorrow to facilitate this".

You and I may agree, but there has been industry research that suggests people don't pay attention to such nuanced and reasonable notices!

The DO NOT TRAVEL wording is clear, but could perhaps be given more background on what people are to do instead (e.g. travel tomorrow, bus ticket acceptance).

As always it's an assessment on known facts at any given time in a rapidly changing environment.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Extreme weather, my ****!

Here in the Barnsley area it's been a sunny, breezy late summers day. I've been out on a bike ride, dropped it off at the bike repair shop, then caught a bus home (no 'DO NOT TRAVEL!' warning on the buses strangely.). Now I'm off to Sheffield for a completely non-essential night out.

Yet this morning I was amazed to see that Northern's DO NOT TRAVEL!' extended to them cancelling all their fast trains from Leeds to Nottingham and Lincoln, even though EMR seemed to have run services on the same lines with minimal disruption.

The problem with Northern's extreme overreaction is of course the "cry wolf" effect. If, at some point in the future there is a period of genuinely extreme weather and Northern issue another DO NOT TRAVEL! warning, most people will assume they're exaggerating again and take no notice.

I wonder if Northern, or indeed the rail industry as a whole, reviews the advice they give passengers at times of disruption and in retrospect considers it disproportionate? Because whoever at Northern issued today's DO NOT TRAVEL! advice really does need to get a sense of perspective!

Lucky for you. Been at work starting at our base in central Lancs today, and the roads have had branches strewn all over.
Although I think do not travel is a little extreme, no guaranteed return would be better.

 

[anothertyke]

The departure board (see photo in @londonmidland's post) says the 1153 (LNER) to Harrogate is cancelled, and adds "Passengers to board the next available LNER service". Why should passengers be told to wait at least two hours for the next LNER when there should be 4 Northern departures to Harrogate in the meantime? (Clearly not the 11:59.) Unless there's a good reason, it seems the one bit of apparently helpful extra info on the board is actually just trying to impose an unjustified additional restriction.

I was wondering about that. Possibly that is the LNER standard message when a train gets cancelled at Leeds. Quite appropriate for Kings Cross, not Harrogate!

 

[david737]

The departure board (see photo in @londonmidland's post) says the 1153 (LNER) to Harrogate is cancelled, and adds "Passengers to board the next available LNER service". Why should passengers be told to wait at least two hours for the next LNER when there should be 4 Northern departures to Harrogate in the meantime? (Clearly not the 11:59.) Unless there's a good reason, it seems the one bit of apparently helpful extra info on the board is actually just trying to impose an unjustified additional restriction.

I was wondering about that. Possibly that is the LNER standard message when a train gets cancelled at Leeds. Quite appropriate for Kings Cross, not Harrogate!

The best part about this is the next train was the LNER at 1353 which was the first train to arrive at Harrogate in over 4 hours as Northern had canned every thing for several hours (tree down somewhere near Pannal I believe).

 

[londonmidland]

The departure board (see photo in @londonmidland's post) says the 1153 (LNER) to Harrogate is cancelled, and adds "Passengers to board the next available LNER service". Why should passengers be told to wait at least two hours for the next LNER when there should be 4 Northern departures to Harrogate in the meantime? (Clearly not the 11:59.) Unless there's a good reason, it seems the one bit of apparently helpful extra info on the board is actually just trying to impose an unjustified additional restriction.

I noticed today that expired/old information can often get left on the screens without being updated, which is understandable when there are multiple service alterations happening every 30 seconds at a busy station like Leeds.

The platform for the London services were being advertised, however the message ‘Platform TBC. Please wait on the concourse until service is advertised’ had not been removed from underneath. The 13:15 to Kings Cross was a funny one. The screens weren’t matching the announcements, as it was first advertised on the boards as departing from platform 1C, then 10 and finally 11. The announcement got it correct the first time round, as it announced it was due to depart from platform 11. I’m not sure if the announcements and screens work off two different systems?

Northern services had multiple platform alterations, so it sounds like there were multiple trains which were being juggled around to find platform spaces during the disruption.

 

[AMD]

Overuse of the OMGZ DO NOT TRAVEL nonsense by some, especially Northern needs to be reigned in

You were obviously not at Manchester Victoria this morning.
I was, and dealing with a very disruptive situation along with many colleagues.

 

[Andyh82]

The Calder Valley line has been heavilly disrupted all day with many services showing as ‘Delayed’ for ages before either starting very late or being cancelled

Looking at Halifax on RealTimeTrains, there were two services to Manchester first thing, then nothing until two services at lunchtime, and then nothing until three trains between 16:00-17:00 and then nothing until after 18:30

 

[Bayum]

Extreme weather, my ****!

Here in the Barnsley area it's been a sunny, breezy late summers day. I've been out on a bike ride, dropped it off at the bike repair shop, then caught a bus home (no 'DO NOT TRAVEL!' warning on the buses strangely.). Now I'm off to Sheffield for a completely non-essential night out.

Yet this morning I was amazed to see that Northern's DO NOT TRAVEL!' extended to them cancelling all their fast trains from Leeds to Nottingham and Lincoln, even though EMR seemed to have run services on the same lines with minimal disruption.

It was pretty bad in Leeds.

 

[Horizon22]

Has any train been stranded for any huge amount of time?

The warning is OTT and certainly does not apply to the whole network. If the situation is as such that there is widespread flooding on the lines, trees down everywhere and mass delays/cancellations then by all mean issue such a warning.

As another poster says, expect possible(severe) delays on your journey today would probably be more appropriate.

We go through this every single time. The message just does not get across otherwise. It has to be dramatic and people with discretionary travel go "oh maybe not today then", lowering the potential passengers that have to be put on buses/other trains or, in extermis, taxis and hotels booked

People turn up, overload stations and trains due to the delays/cancellations and then there are strandings on busy trains and then start going "Why didn't [insert TOC & NR] suspend the service earlier when it was clear was bad weather?".

Such warnings are not given without a significant number of Network Rail and TOC conferences following bespoke weather reports for the affected route and senior operational leaders making such a decision to declare "Do Not Travel". Yes this type of messaging is now more common, but such is the impact of the Carmont fatality and an increasingly (not without reason) risk-averse nature to stranded trains and infrastructure and resource constraints during weather-related disruption.

Really is a "damned if you, damned if you don't" for these forums!

 

[yorksrob]

We go through this every single time. The message just does not get across otherwise. It has to be dramatic and people with discretionary travel go "oh maybe not today then", lowering the potential passengers that have to be put on buses/other trains or, in extermis, taxis and hotels booked

People turn up, overload stations and trains due to the delays/cancellations and then there are strandings on busy trains and then start going "Why didn't [insert TOC & NR] suspend the service earlier when it was clear was bad weather?".

Such warnings are not given without a significant number of Network Rail and TOC conferences following bespoke weather reports for the affected route and senior operational leaders making such a decision to declare "Do Not Travel". Yes this type of messaging is now more common, but such is the impact of the Carmont fatality and an increasingly (not without reason) risk-averse nature to stranded trains and infrastructure and resource constraints during weather-related disruption.

Really is a "damned if you, damned if you don't" for these forums!

To be fair, I'm not sure Carmont is compatible.

"Do not travel" is for the passengers but the industry decides what trains run !