Northern First Class

[yorksrob]

TBH I think the additional 142's would be a lot more welcome if they were arriving in addition to the 180's rather than instead of them.

 

[WestCoast]

TBH I think the 142's would be a lot more welcome if they were arriving in addition to the 180's rather than instead of them.

Yes, that is another point, commuters on the busy Preston - Manchester (the TPEs on the route are already full and standing at peak times) have got used to the 180s.

As Yew says, even a decent refurbishment of the 150s and 156s (something like SWT do) would improve the situation considerably.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Though that might grab your attention. If it was compulsory for all TOC's to offer a first class service, what would Northern do?
Split the 142 in 1/2

That is a good idea, let something novel happen such as suspension being fitted under the first class section. Also toilets (2 of them in first class) with Andrex toilet rolls and Camay soap bars as standard.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, that is another point, commuters on the busy Preston - Manchester (the TPEs on the route are already full and standing at peak times) have got used to the 180s.

Indeed. I would have thought that the Manchester - Preston run would be one of Northern's flows that could justify longer trains a lot of the time.

 

[strange6]

That is a good idea, let something novel happen such as suspension being fitted under the first class section. Also toilets (2 of them in first class) with Andrex toilet rolls and Camay soap bars as standard.

Why not go the full hog and have air freshner in there too!

 

[WestCoast]

Indeed. I would have thought that the Manchester - Preston run would be one of Northern's flows that could justify longer trains a lot of the time.

Well, it should improve when electrification reaches the area and the 319s arrive (or 323s from LM). By that time the stock is going to be old and will need a serious refurbishment.

Something really needs to be done now though (or should have been done some years ago) to help ease the situation. The interim measure was the 180s, now they have gone, I can see the Pacers struggling.

 

[bluenoxid]

yes it can. There are things called thermos flasks you know

Pot Noodle served with luke warm water from a flask. No chance, Health and Safety will be doing backflips, plus a Greggs Pasty is a regionally identifiable form of sustenance, unlike Pot Noodles that are for students.

 

[tbtc]

Well, yes, it was just something of interest to fit in with the thread, I wasn't seriously suggesting it with Northern's chronic stock shortages.

I was only saying it because I didn't want anyone to suggest that Northern did waste resources like this - someone else still did though
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would have thought that the Manchester - Preston run would be one of Northern's flows that could justify longer trains a lot of the time.

Its a tricky one; this line already has a half hourly First Class service (the TPE trains). If Northern did have resources to introduce some additional capacity - some of which was First Class - should they use it on the Chorley services (thus giving all trains on the line First Class) or use it on other routes with no First Class offering (Harrogate/ Knursford etc)?

(I don't know the answer, I'm just wondering)

 

[yorksrob]

Its a tricky one; this line already has a half hourly First Class service (the TPE trains). If Northern did have resources to introduce some additional capacity - some of which was First Class - should they use it on the Chorley services (thus giving all trains on the line First Class) or use it on other routes with no First Class offering (Harrogate/ Knursford etc)?

(I don't know the answer, I'm just wondering)

Yes indeed, or anywhere where the capacity could be utilised.

 

[Mark_re]

The great problem with the Northern franchise is that its subsidy is enormous. Fares are also low compared with the SE commuter franchises. Given that the rental of a pacer is around £2k/mo., and a new 172 something like 10x that, why would Northern get any investment?

It could be argued that wages are lower in the Northern area, which is why Northern couldn't tolerate higher fares, but the demographics of typical Northern commuters are not dissimilar to those in the SE. Wealthy commuters into regional hubs, like from Durham/Tyne Valley/SE Northumberland into Newcastle, Harrogate into Leeds, etc.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the solution is. The high-value routes have been spun off into Transpennine, setting in the rot. I think the best Northern can realistically hope for are, indeed, cascades from elsewhere along with increased community involvement in running marginal lines. That, or inflation-busting demand-destroying fare rises.

 

[Yew]

Originally Posted by strange6 View Post
Though that might grab your attention. If it was compulsory for all TOC's to offer a first class service, what would Northern do?
Split the 142 in 1/2


Maybe the secondmans seat in the cab? and the driver gives you a bite of his sandwich?

 

[Lampshade]

The services began in the early days of North Western Trains (1997) and lasted until 2000.

The official reason given for their cancellation was pathing issues, but Virgin can't have been happy with the prospect of FNW introducing 125mph stock.

There were two return trips a day from Man Vic. to London, with one extending to Rochdale.

I think the Blackpool and Man Vic/Rochdale service (ran via Newton-le-Willows) coupled up at Warrington Bank Quay.

The fares were cheap (something like £25 walk-up return), I only ever travelled once and I can't remember the loads. It didn't stop at the main stops, I reckon the only major stop on the WCML was Tamworth.

I must stop quoting you

It was:

Rochdale > Manchester Victoria > Newton le Willows > (Warrington BQ to couple) > Tamworth Low Level > Watford Junction (pick up northbound, set down southbound) > London Euston

Think the Airport services (322s usually, although 309s did substitute) called at Alderley Edge, Sandbach, Tamworth and Watford Junction.

 

[tbtc]

The great problem with the Northern franchise is that its subsidy is enormous. Fares are also low compared with the SE commuter franchises. Given that the rental of a pacer is around £2k/mo., and a new 172 something like 10x that, why would Northern get any investment?

It could be argued that wages are lower in the Northern area, which is why Northern couldn't tolerate higher fares, but the demographics of typical Northern commuters are not dissimilar to those in the SE. Wealthy commuters into regional hubs, like from Durham/Tyne Valley/SE Northumberland into Newcastle, Harrogate into Leeds, etc.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the solution is. The high-value routes have been spun off into Transpennine, setting in the rot. I think the best Northern can realistically hope for are, indeed, cascades from elsewhere along with increased community involvement in running marginal lines. That, or inflation-busting demand-destroying fare rises.

Interesting comparison.

I suppose the salient point is that (say) SWT run all routes in their area (or, at least very marginal overlap with other TOCs), so get 99% of revenue from their services.

Northern, as you say, don't have the "high profile" services (TPE and the Intercity operators having the plum routes/ best paths) meaning Northern are generally left with the unprofitable services or only a smaller share of flows (why invest on a route only to find much of the increased fare revenue go to another TOC?).

Some fares are very low, true, though as these are controlled by PTEs I'd imagine that Northern would get money from the PTE to compensate them for the lower ticket prices? Could be wrong.

 

[WestCoast]

The great problem with the Northern franchise is that its subsidy is enormous. Fares are also low compared with the SE commuter franchises. Given that the rental of a pacer is around £2k/mo., and a new 172 something like 10x that, why would Northern get any investment?

Certain routes need a heavy subsidy, yes, but looking at some of the busy key routes (particularly the areas marked for electrification), it's hard to believe the subsidy is high on those routes. They are carrying good loads, both during the peaks and off-peak. Pacers are having to, unsuccessfully, deal with some of these routes.

Some of the routes around Greater Manchester must be similar to those in the West Midlands, yet LM is getting new stock.

Look at the Airedale and Wharfedale routes operating into Leeds, that were electrified in the 90s. They were operated by Pacers. With investment and modern 4-car EMUs, useage has soared.

It could be argued that wages are lower in the Northern area, which is why Northern couldn't tolerate higher fares, but the demographics of typical Northern commuters are not dissimilar to those in the SE. Wealthy commuters into regional hubs, like from Durham/Tyne Valley/SE Northumberland into Newcastle, Harrogate into Leeds, etc.

Well, again that is true to a certain extent. The fares in the Northern area are, generally, lower than the South East. However they aren't lower than the West Midlands area, where LM is receiving much new stock. The fares aren't overly cheap outside of the PTE areas, inside them they can be very cheap (West Yorks in particular has very low fares).

Outside of the PTE areas, the Off-peak fares can be closer to the South East. Off-peak deals such as "super off-peak" and "Southern Daysave" don't really exist, as there isn't much off-peak capacity to fill, like in the South East. There is no advance tickets either, despite some Northern routes being long enough to justify them.

 

[Lampshade]

Oh yeah:

 

[IanXC]

I think Blackpool North-York, Leeds-Nottingham, Sheffield-Hull and Carlisle-Newcastle may all have some potential, and 158s are diagrammed for all runs on the above except the latter, which is 142 / 156. I think one Nottingham-Leeds is a 153 and 150 as well...

When we had 158888 turning up now and then on the Yorkshire Coast line during last summer I felt as though there were a number of regular commuters who would pay that little bit more to sit in a first class section. I for one would have done, if only to get away from the noise of screaming children/children running up and down/people having shouty arguments on their mobiles on their way back from the seaside.

As it transpired I and some of the other regular commuters (mainly in suits) would sit in the first class section and leisure travellers would pass through the section thinking they couldn't sit there!!

 

[yorksrob]

The great problem with the Northern franchise is that its subsidy is enormous. Fares are also low compared with the SE commuter franchises. Given that the rental of a pacer is around £2k/mo., and a new 172 something like 10x that, why would Northern get any investment?

It could be argued that wages are lower in the Northern area, which is why Northern couldn't tolerate higher fares, but the demographics of typical Northern commuters are not dissimilar to those in the SE. Wealthy commuters into regional hubs, like from Durham/Tyne Valley/SE Northumberland into Newcastle, Harrogate into Leeds, etc.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the solution is. The high-value routes have been spun off into Transpennine, setting in the rot. I think the best Northern can realistically hope for are, indeed, cascades from elsewhere along with increased community involvement in running marginal lines. That, or inflation-busting demand-destroying fare rises.

Generally though, I can think of a lot of routes in the Northern area which don't seem very low at all, compared to some non-London journeys in the SouthEast, Leeds - York being a case in point.

You've hit the nail on the head though. A system which splits main line from secondary route in order to pretend that some Inter-City routes can exist in splendid isolation whilst the public picks up the tab for the rest simply can't work.

The only cure would be to re-integrate the railway so that the mainline can cross-subsidise the rest.