Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Harvey B]

If any more 331s are ordered then I would say it's almost certain the 333s will be leaving, I'm afraid.

 

[py_megapixel]

It seems odd to want to try standardise their EMU fleet first when they've got a much wider range of DMUs, of which a lot are soon getting to retirement age, surely the money would first be better spent replacing some sprinters?

I'd agree in principle, but there's the important point that absolutely any given unit in the diesel fleet is capable of interoperating with absolutely any other given unit in the diesel fleet.
In reality, some of them are stuck out on their own diagrams and don't take advantage of this - but most aren't and do take advantage of it on a regular basis.
The only exception to this, somewhat ironically, is the 195s.

On the other hand, none of the classes in the electric fleet are capable of coupling to each other (except 319-323 for rescue purposes only, but that's doesn't increase flexibility of allocating units in service).

All this speculation is something of a moot point as the 333s are on lease until 2025.

Nice and easy to play fantasy new trains on here, but real world things like contracts don't allow an operator to just get rid of a fleet.

Presumably if they were in a really awful state, and the cost to keep them running was going to be astronomically high, then they theoretically could pay both to lease them and to warm-store them, thereby replacing them before they go off lease?

(I'm aware that this won't happen in practice)

 

[43096]

Presumably if they were in a really awful state, and the cost to keep them running was going to be astronomically high, then they theoretically could pay both to lease them and to warm-store them, thereby replacing them before they go off lease?

True. As long as Angel get their money up to 31/03/2025 they'll be fine. But note the terms about handback condition!

 

[superkev]

Just get more 331s/195s in and see off the 150s/153s/155s/156s/319s. 100 more trains should do it, maybe 120 if you need slightly more diesels

Oh and make them 3 and 4-car whilst extending the rest of the 2-cars to 3!

323s are just about acceptable after their refurb - they're nippy and more reliable than 319s!

The press release mentioned any new emus would have air conditioning.
I'm I right in that the 323s plus or course the 319s and 379s dont have it so could go.
K

 

[Bletchleyite]

The press release mentioned any new emus would have air conditioning.
I'm I right in that the 323s plus or course the 319s and 379s dont have it so could go.

323s are not "new EMUs", they are used.

 

[py_megapixel]

The press release mentioned any new emus would have air conditioning.
I'm I right in that the 323s plus or course the 319s and 379s dont have it so could go.
K

379s are air conditioned, but Northern don't operate any.

The 323s are not air conditioned either but are still young enough that a retrofit might be worthwhile; the 319s on the other hand are probably headed for scrap in the next decade or two so less likely.

 

[ABB125]

And if Northern do need more EMUs (where the 9(?) remaining class 323s are insufficient), surely it would be more cost effective and environmentally friendly to lease some high quality units already in existence (class 379 or 350/2 etc)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if Northern do need more EMUs (where the 9(?) remaining class 323s are insufficient), surely it would be more cost effective and environmentally friendly to lease some high quality units already in existence (class 379 or 350/2 etc)?

There is that. It is looking increasingly likely that the 379s and 350/2s won't find a home at all. I bet the owners of the 350/2s will be upset if that happens, as their holding out for a higher lease payment would have backfired.

 

[Jamesrob637]

the 319s on the other hand are probably headed for scrap in the next decade or two so less likely.

Next two or three years more like!

 

[ABB125]

There is that. It is looking increasingly likely that the 379s and 350/2s won't find a home at all. I bet the owners of the 350/2s will be upset if that happens, as their holding out for a higher lease payment would have backfired.

#bringback[the]BR[stockcascadeplan]

That would be too sensible to happen on the British rail network!

 

[Domh245]

There is that. It is looking increasingly likely that the 379s and 350/2s won't find a home at all. I bet the owners of the 350/2s will be upset if that happens, as their holding out for a higher lease payment would have backfired.

At least for the 350s, Porterbrook have their eye on flexing them with batteries, so it's certainly not impossible for them to wind up at Northern! PB also own the 323s, so I'm sure they won't object to swapping 323s for 350s as they'll still be getting paid!

 

[Wolfie]

Just get more 331s/195s in and see off the 150s/153s/155s/156s/319s. 100 more trains should do it, maybe 120 if you need slightly more diesels

Oh and make them 3 and 4-car whilst extending the rest of the 2-cars to 3!

323s are just about acceptable after their refurb - they're nippy and more reliable than 319s!

Budget no issue huh. Frankly you are dreaming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2021 ==

To replace the 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s on a one-in-one-out basis, Northern would need to order 152 units. That's never going to happen in one go.

In my opinion, what is far more likely to happen is the 156s are retained, with the 150s replaced by newbuilds and the 153s and 155s replaced by further 156s from EMR. I expect any further 331 orders will be to replace the 333s, leaving the 323 and 331 as Northern's standard EMU types.

As for the refurbished 323s, they are perfectly adequate units.

Add the remaining 9 323s to the Northern fleet and send 323s to Yorkshire to replace the 333s if they are in a bad way corrosion-wise.

 

[507021]

And if Northern do need more EMUs (where the 9(?) remaining class 323s are insufficient), surely it would be more cost effective and environmentally friendly to lease some high quality units already in existence (class 379 or 350/2 etc)?

While I agree with the point you're making, Northern want to standardise their fleet and reduce the number of different classes they have in service.

There's also the financial aspect to consider as well. If Northern took on the 350/2s or 379s, then there's the more expensive leasing costs as well as the cost of training all of the relevant staff to operate and maintain them. Ordering more 331s might not make sense environmentally, but it would financially.

 

[Wolfie]

There is that. It is looking increasingly likely that the 379s and 350/2s won't find a home at all. I bet the owners of the 350/2s will be upset if that happens, as their holding out for a higher lease payment would have backfired.

I'll bet that they do. The 379s will likely end up supplementing another Electrostar fleet. Not so sure where the 350s will end up

 

[507021]

Budget no issue huh. Frankly you are dreaming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2021 ==


Add the remaining 9 323s to the Northern fleet and send 323s to Yorkshire to replace the 333s if they are in a bad way corrosion-wise.

A good idea in principle, but the 333s are 94 metres in length and the 323s are 70 metres. That's a big capacity reduction.

 

[_toommm_]

A good idea in principle, but the 333s are 94 metres in length and the 323s are 70 metres. That's a big capacity reduction.

Is it a capacity reduction in terms of seats though? The 323s hold up in terms of seat numbers vs the 319s they’ll eventually replace.

 

[Nymanic]

And if Northern do need more EMUs (where the 9(?) remaining class 323s are insufficient), surely it would be more cost effective and environmentally friendly to lease some high quality units already in existence (class 379 or 350/2 etc)?

Puts paid to the idea of 'standardisation', surely?

Plus I don't think there's a single Northern route that can accommodate 2x379 or 2x350; single units only would be a significant capacity drop at peak times. SDO would not be a suitable workaround for 160m trains, as has been discussed elsewhere.

There are many unelectrified/partially electrified Northern routes, where pairs of 15x units are routine, that could be handled well by single 350s or 379s. There are also no plans afoot to electrify any of those routes...

A good idea in principle, but the 333s are 94 metres in length and the 323s are 70 metres. That's a big capacity reduction.

As opposed to an even greater capacity reduction in a 70-metre 331/0? Double them up and add SDO, and you've got well over 500 seats.
Nevertheless, politically I can't see it happening. Their 90mph limit may also be a problem between Leeds and Doncaster.

 

[Wolfie]

A good idea in principle, but the 333s are 94 metres in length and the 323s are 70 metres. That's a big capacity reduction.

I was assuming that the 323s would run as pairs.

 

[507021]

Is it a capacity reduction in terms of seats though? The 323s hold up in terms of seat numbers vs the 319s they’ll eventually replace.

Yes, a 333 has 360 seats, a PRM compliant 323 has significantly less.

As opposed to an even greater capacity reduction in a 70-metre 331/0? Double them up and add SDO, and you've got well over 500 seats.
Nevertheless, politically I can't see it happening. Their 90mph limit may also be a problem between Leeds and Doncaster.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest any further 331s would be three car units. They could be five car units for all we know.

Moving enough 323s over to Yorkshire to run them in pairs as 333 replacements wouldn't happen because there wouldn't be enough of them left over to replace 319s, so Northern would still need to order more 331s.

I was assuming that the 323s would run as pairs.

This would leave Northern without enough 319 replacements.

 

[Neptune]

All this speculation is something of a moot point as the 333s are on lease until 2025.

Nice and easy to play fantasy new trains on here, but real world things like contracts don't allow an operator to just get rid of a fleet.

As were the 319's but they are being replaced by additional 323's. Also this is now a different operation since last year's change of operator. Things can change within a contract, they always have done.

As much as I like the 333's and have worked them since day 1 it would make sense to replace all the EMU fleets with one standard electric fleet which reduces long term costs and staff training. I include replacing the 323's in this also.

As much as everyone has their favorites I'm afraid standardization is the way to go in future if the railway is to become efficient and cost effective. The inflexibility of all these incompatible new trains that have flooded us in the last 20 years shows the flaw in this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2021 ==

I was assuming that the 323s would run as pairs.

No ASDO so it can't happen

 

[43096]

As were the 319's but they are being replaced by additional 323's. Also this is now a different operation since last year's change of operator. Things can change within a contract, they always have done.

The difference is that the 319s and 323s are owned by the same ROSCO and they were particularly keen to keep the 323s on lease as they had had substantial capital investment (new traction converters). The 331s and 333s have different owners.

 

[Domh245]

The 331s and 333s have different owners.

It isn't impossible for Porterbrook to finance a second batch of 331s though?

 

[Neptune]

It isn't impossible for Porterbrook to finance a second batch of 331s though?

333’s are owned by Angel but yes it is possible for a different leasing company to finance the same train as another (168, 170, 350 etc...)

 

[Domh245]

333’s are owned by Angel

Ah whoops, thought it was discussion on 323s. I need more coffee clearly!

 

[HarryL]

If they are wanting to get rid of the 333s with this order then I imagine at least a number of these new orders being 6 carriage to carry out the capacity upgrades they wanted to do, then keep the current 4 carriage ones in west yorkshire also rather than shuffling around. The timing would match up with this, announced just after the Leeds upgrade works finished which they were waiting for.

 

[superkev]

True. As long as Angel get their money up to 31/03/2025 they'll be fine. But note the terms about handback condition!

If the 333s need the much mentioned bolster repairs I wonder who would foot the considerable bill.
If it is down to the leasing company it may be better for them to finish the lease early or even lease new trains to Northern.
K

 

[Wolfie]

If the 333s need the much mentioned bolster repairs I wonder who would foot the considerable bill.
If it is down to the leasing company it may be better for them to finish the lease early or even lease new trains to Northern.
K

The answer to the question in the first para may come down to the causes of the problem i.e. If something Northern have or have not done is determined to be the cause they may be financially liable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You can, but for at least part of a weekday evening there's a set stabled on each platform at Ilkley and trains come in on top. That works fine with 8 cars but won't work with 12.

I haven't heard anything about platform extensions - I would have expected to by now if it was planned, given I've seen the method of working for 6 car sets on the current platforms.

Just because that's how things work now doesn't mean it is set in stone to always be that way. As we slowly recover post-pandemic there'll be less requirement for extra services in the peaks, so the need to stable units in platforms between or after the peaks is reduced. This will apply not only to Ilkley but Leeds as well.

 

[CAF397]

2*331s are perfect length, and much more suitable for Blackpool North - Hazel Grove/Manchester Airport services (pre-covid) than the 2 and 4-car DMUs (and 319s) they replaced. My fear is if they order 4-car 331s that we couldn't have 7 or 8-car formations (even with ASDO), so we could go back to 4-car operations, which isn't ideal.

 

[RealTrains07]

Northern maybe ordering more 331s to standardise the emu fleet.

Northern plans more new trains after CAF milestone

Northern seeking to increase CAF fleet as it looks to standardisation

www.railmagazine.com

I still remember when northern said all 101 trains would be in service by may 2020. That didnt age well did it

No surprise Northern want this considering they are run by the Operator Of Last Resort. Any excuse to spend more money on new trains