Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Greybeard33]

On the airedale and wharfedale lines you can only fit a 4 car on some of the stations, be pointless having 3 car or 6 car runs.

These units have SDO. Full length platforms are only needed at major and terminal stations.

 

[HarryL]

On the airedale and wharfedale lines you can only fit a 4 car on some of the stations, be pointless having 3 car or 6 car runs.

Travel on these lines at almost any time of the day during normal times and most people will tell you 4 carriages is nowhere near enough . The lines definitely couldn't support being dropped to 3 cars, 6 will be desperately needed assuming things return to normal at some point, they can run SDO for a while and hopefully WYMetro push NR to extend the platforms where possible.

 

[Gaz55]

Why not keep the units on their current routes. As a semi regular user of the Donny to Leeds stopper, it's great to have new trains on the route after years of having dependable, but knackered, 321s & 322s.

 

[Halish Railway]

On the airedale and wharfedale lines you can only fit a 4 car on some of the stations, be pointless having 3 car or 6 car runs.

I’m pretty sure that extensions were planned on the Airedale line, besides, SDO can always be used.

Why not keep the units on their current routes. As a semi regular user of the Donny to Leeds stopper, it's great to have new trains on the route after years of having dependable, but knackered, 321s & 322s.

4 car units were always planned to be used on the western side, IIRC Liverpool to Blackpool and Manchester to Hadfield were the routes that they would have been used on, releasing 319s to be withdrawn and 323s to strengthen other services in the process.

Also, 4 car 333s on the Leeds to Skipton and to a certain extent Ilkley services is completely unsustainable and has been for almost a decade and this hasn’t been helped by the 4 car 331s as they have around 20 less seats than a 321/322 and almost 80 less than a 333. As for Doncaster, it has always been the plan that 333s would be used, providing a little bit of a capacity boost.

 

[jonesy3001]

I’m pretty sure that extensions were planned on the Airedale line, besides, SDO can always be used.

You could fit 6 cars on llkley and I have noticed the guiseley platforms used to be longer.

 

[skyhigh]

You could fit 6 cars on llkley and I have noticed the guiseley platforms used to be longer.

You can, but for at least part of a weekday evening there's a set stabled on each platform at Ilkley and trains come in on top. That works fine with 8 cars but won't work with 12.

I haven't heard anything about platform extensions - I would have expected to by now if it was planned, given I've seen the method of working for 6 car sets on the current platforms.

 

[Halish Railway]

Now that platform 0 has opened at Leeds, have any plans been drawn up to move the originally planned 16x331/0s to Neville Hill in exchange for 12x331/1s? (Maybe in time for the May 2021 timetable change).

 

[jonesy3001]

Northern maybe ordering more 331s to standardise the emu fleet.

Northern plans more new trains after CAF milestone

Northern seeking to increase CAF fleet as it looks to standardisation

www.railmagazine.com

 

[Wolfie]

Northern maybe ordering more 331s to standardise the emu fleet.

Northern plans more new trains after CAF milestone

Northern seeking to increase CAF fleet as it looks to standardisation

www.railmagazine.com

I would have thought, with HMT looking for savings on the railways, that more new stock would be unlikely unless significant logistic savings result.

 

[Nymanic]

Perhaps understandable if the 333s are found to be on their last legs, even if 331s are not an optimal replacement for them.

Otherwise, I don't see it happening. 319s are leaving, there are still 9 323s without a home, and there are only so many wired routes up north.

Unless there are some bimodes touted for 769/150 replacement? Again, I very highly doubt it.

 

[py_megapixel]

What a ridiculous idea. Have shiny new EMUs replacing perfectly good (and seemingly more reliable) 323s on electrified routes while the diesel routes have to make do with falling-apart Sprinters.

If any more trains are to be ordered they should be 195s. Or preferably "295s" (hypothetical 195s with a diesel-electric drivetrain and built so that they can have a pantograph fitted later if needs be)

 

[Energy]

What is the state like of the 333s? The similar 332s had a nice interior but were not great underneath but that may be because of Heathrow's neglect of the fleet. If it is as bad underneath on the 333s it may make sense for them to order 331s to replace them.

 

[Wolfie]

What a ridiculous idea. Have shiny new EMUs replacing perfectly good (and seemingly more reliable) 323s on electrified routes while the diesel routes have to make do with falling-apart Sprinters.

If any more trains are to be ordered they should be 195s. Or preferably "295s" (hypothetical 195s with a diesel-electric drivetrain and built so that they can have a pantograph fitted later if needs be)

That all sounds sensible, particularly given that there will still be 323s without a home.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2021 ==

Perhaps understandable if the 333s are found to be on their last legs, even if 331s are not an optimal replacement for them.

Otherwise, I don't see it happening. 319s are leaving, there are still 9 323s without a home, and there are only so many wired routes up north.

Agreed WRT the 333s. I am pretty sure that l have seen some mention of corrosion in them on here.

 

[skyhigh]

What is the state like of the 333s? The similar 332s had a nice interior but were not great underneath but that may be because of Heathrow's neglect of the fleet. If it is as bad underneath on the 333s it may make sense for them to order 331s to replace them.

333s are mostly in a poor state - mechanically, rather than cosmetically. Not uncommon to get a unit on half power, or with a heating/air con fault in at least one saloon. Look at the windscreens for example, some units show some pretty severe delamination (outside of the driver's view so still safe to run). As far as I'm aware the corrosion of which 009 had a trial repair hasn't been fixed on the rest of the fleet, but it is being closely monitored. Note that the PIS also needs replacement as it can't announce the 'new' stations, and that none have been fitted with USB etc yet.

Given the potential costs of all that, with the potential saving of only 1 type of EMU needing to be based at Neville Hill, I wouldn't be surprised if the 333s are shown the door.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Just get more 331s/195s in and see off the 150s/153s/155s/156s/319s. 100 more trains should do it, maybe 120 if you need slightly more diesels

Oh and make them 3 and 4-car whilst extending the rest of the 2-cars to 3!

323s are just about acceptable after their refurb - they're nippy and more reliable than 319s!

 

[HarryL]

It seems odd to want to try standardise their EMU fleet first when they've got a much wider range of DMUs, of which a lot are soon getting to retirement age, surely the money would first be better spent replacing some sprinters?

 

[py_megapixel]

323s are just about acceptable after their refurb - they're nippy and more reliable than 319s!

By that I assume you consider anything older than them in the fleet to unacceptable then? If so, I reckon I agree with you (except possibly the 158s which I'd put just a tad below a 323 and still in the acceptable range)

 

[Jamesrob637]

By that I assume you consider anything older than them in the fleet to unacceptable then? If so, I reckon I agree with you (except possibly the 158s which I'd put just a tad below a 323 and still in the acceptable range)

The 323s need air-conditioning and to work in pairs when things are more normal again, in order to to be a quality train. Hence just about. 158s are redeemed by their A/C which is more reliable than it ever was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 323s need air-conditioning and to work in pairs when things are more normal again, in order to to be a quality train. Hence just about. 158s are redeemed by their A/C which is more reliable than it ever was.

Rather opening windows than aircon that still often doesn't work. The CAF aircon seems good, though.

 

[Roast Veg]

I would have thought extending all the 331s to 4 car would be a better first investment. There's a vast overprovision of EMUs when the 323s are taken into account, and they may as well form the complete 3 car roster, even if it means sending some east for 6 car working out of Leeds.

 

[CJ]

I agree with regards to comments about the 323, they are still reliable trains and look really good after their recent refurb, I don't think they should be removed just yet.

I agree also that if more trains are to be ordered, then 195s would be logical to help remove as many sprinters as possible.

Ordering more 331s to remove 333s (and possible extend some existing 331s to 4 carriages) would be a good idea.

 

[py_megapixel]

The 323s need air-conditioning and to work in pairs when things are more normal again, in order to to be a quality train. Hence just about. 158s are redeemed by their A/C which is more reliable than it ever was.

Yes, air conditioning on a 323 would be a plus, but only if it works!

I know quite a few people who commute into Manchester and really like the 323s, and I've always had a soft spot for them, so I'll be sad to see them go, especially if it's premature in tReplyhe name of standardisation. They just have a wonderful unique feel about them that you don't get on anything else - just modern enough not to be unpleasant, and just old enough to feel that there's something special about them. They also make a wonderful noise...

 

[Energy]

Speculative discussion on more 331s thread here...

 

[Jamesrob637]

Rather opening windows than aircon that still often doesn't work. The CAF aircon seems good, though.

CAF air-conditioning is brilliant. When did you last take a 158?! All of those I've taken recently have had good A/C! Better than my Golf whose AC is currently broken though hardly a necessity in wintertime.

 

[507021]

Just get more 331s/195s in and see off the 150s/153s/155s/156s/319s. 100 more trains should do it, maybe 120 if you need slightly more diesels

Oh and make them 3 and 4-car whilst extending the rest of the 2-cars to 3!

323s are just about acceptable after their refurb - they're nippy and more reliable than 319s!

To replace the 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s on a one-in-one-out basis, Northern would need to order 152 units. That's never going to happen in one go.

In my opinion, what is far more likely to happen is the 156s are retained, with the 150s replaced by newbuilds and the 153s and 155s replaced by further 156s from EMR. I expect any further 331 orders will be to replace the 333s, leaving the 323 and 331 as Northern's standard EMU types.

As for the refurbished 323s, they are perfectly adequate units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CAF air-conditioning is brilliant. When did you last take a 158?! All of those I've taken recently have had good A/C! Better than my Golf whose AC is currently broken though hardly a necessity in wintertime.

Recently...when it's cold. Come summer...

 

[Harvey B]

Northern maybe ordering more 331s to standardise the emu fleet.

Northern plans more new trains after CAF milestone

Northern seeking to increase CAF fleet as it looks to standardisation

www.railmagazine.com

As Long As the 333's Are Kept then I'm Fine

 

[jonesy3001]

As Long As the 333's Are Kept then I'm Fine

Got a feeling it's them that are being replaced due to corrosion issues, good job I've got all 16.
All speculation at the moment.
Think there's a link in one of the posts.

 

[507021]

As Long As the 333's Are Kept then I'm Fine

If any more 331s are ordered then I would say it's almost certain the 333s will be leaving, I'm afraid.

 

[43096]

All this speculation is something of a moot point as the 333s are on lease until 2025.

Nice and easy to play fantasy new trains on here, but real world things like contracts don't allow an operator to just get rid of a fleet.