Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[oscarthecat92]

That still means about 21 3-coach sets will be kept in the west though (18 in service, 3 for maintenance/spare). So out of the 10 going to the east, only about 8 in service each day but with all the 4-car trains in the west. There will be probably be some Yorkshire 331 services. going from 4 carriages to 3.

I hope not, I can imagine the chaos if a 3 car turned up for an evening peak Leeds to Skipton (that's if passenger numbers ever get back to where they were)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weren't the Hadfields supposed to go to 4 cars originally and the platforms lengthened to accommodate this where necessary

I think so, yes, but that was when Northern were going to lose the 323s and be left with only 331s and 319s, wasn't it? Now they are getting all of the 323s, which are really absolutely perfect for Manchester suburban EMU services, there seems less of a case for it.

 

[Jamesrob637]

How many does Airport-Blackpool use? That's permanently 6 car now isn't it?

(Still feels odd to have South East style long trains on a route that used to have 2-car DMUs a lot of the time!)

It's amazing - may that remain! Pairs of 323s will be good to see also.

Regarding your actual question, yes I think so but maybe the very first and very last services are only 3-car. Certainly all the "daytime" services are booked 6-car, and unlike Blackpool to Hazel Grove it also runs Sundays albeit only 2-hourly.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think so, yes, but that was when Northern were going to lose the 323s and be left with only 331s and 319s, wasn't it? Now they are getting all of the 323s, which are really absolutely perfect for Manchester suburban EMU services, there seems less of a case for it.

They're not quite getting all of the 323s; there's still some (9 IIRC) going off lease.
Is this likely to mean that some 4-car diagrams will still be needed on Glossop?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2020 ==

Pairs of 323s will be good to see also.

That's a bit trickier as, as far as I am aware, there is no SDO or even UDS on a 323, so all platforms on the route would have to be extended to accommodate 6*23m

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're not quite getting all of the 323s; there's still some (9 IIRC) going off lease.
Is this likely to mean that some 4-car diagrams will still be needed on Glossop?

Not sure why it would, there are enough units to run it now, even before the others come up from Brum.

 

[jonesy3001]

I think

Not sure why it would, there are enough units to run it now, even before the others come up from Brum.

The 323s from WMT are replacing the 319s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 323s from WMT are replacing the 319s.

I know, but there are presently enough 323s already there to operate Hadfield, as that is what has operated it since the 305s stopped in the late 90s. There is therefore no need to put 331s on it, and I don't believe it has a particular capacity problem as it is.

 

[Philip]

How many does Airport-Blackpool use? That's permanently 6 car now isn't it?

(Still feels odd to have South East style long trains on a route that used to have 2-car DMUs a lot of the time!)

Four diagrams so should be 8 sets.

They set off and sound like tube trains a bit as well! The acceleration is impressive, think they'd be good for Manchester Victoria-Preston too since it is the 'stopper' for that route.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think
The 323s from WMT are replacing the 319s.

Northern is reportedly gaining 17 323s from WMT to replace its 15 remaining 319s. So no need for 331s to take over any of the current 323 diagrams, unless maybe Northern intends pairs of 323s to replace pairs of 331s on some of the Manchester - Blackpools.

 

[py_megapixel]

unless maybe Northern intends pairs of 323s to replace pairs of 331s on some of the Manchester - Blackpools.

SDO (which, as mentioned previously, the 323s don't have) is needed at some stations on the route.

(at least for services starting from Hazel Grove. I don't know about Airport services)

 

[507021]

I know, but there are presently enough 323s already there to operate Hadfield, as that is what has operated it since the 305s stopped in the late 90s. There is therefore no need to put 331s on it, and I don't believe it has a particular capacity problem as it is.

Allocating the newest trains to routes in/around Greater Manchester will no doubt keep Andy Burnham happy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Allocating the newest trains to routes in/around Greater Manchester will no doubt keep Andy Burnham happy.

Though to be fair, because they looked pretty "space age" in the 90s (so far as commuter trains go), 323s look modern now. A very good piece of design indeed.

 

[507021]

Though to be fair, because they looked pretty "space age" in the 90s (so far as commuter trains go), 323s look modern now. A very good piece of design indeed.

I don't disagree at all, the 323s are excellent units.

 

[Bikeman78]

The 4 car sets are only in Yorkshire until the Leeds remodelling is complete. They then come back to work Liverpool/ Wigan/ Blackpool.
Operationally the pairs of 3 cars on the Wigan - Lime st stoppers are a nightmare because you can only use the front three cars (due to platform lengths) so most of us can't wait to get the 4 cars back

Why do they run six cars if only three cars can be used?

 

[Philip]

Northern is reportedly gaining 17 323s from WMT to replace its 15 remaining 319s. So no need for 331s to take over any of the current 323 diagrams, unless maybe Northern intends pairs of 323s to replace pairs of 331s on some of the Manchester - Blackpools.

That won't please some if true, despite the build quality of the 323. The headline will read 'Manchester/Bolton/Blackpool passengers see their brand new trains replaced with trains nearly 30 years old'.

I would add that the 331 interior is a clear improvement over the 323 too (and a lot better than the 319), and for reasonable-length routes like the Blackpools they are more appropriate.

 

[Greybeard33]

SDO (which, as mentioned previously, the 323s don't have) is needed at some stations on the route.

(at least for services starting from Hazel Grove. I don't know about Airport services)

The majority of Airport - Blackpool services currently skip Blackrod and Adlington, which have platforms less than 6-car length. But they all call at Leyland, which also has short platforms.

I do not know what scope there is for platform extensions at these stations, or swapping the calls to other services.

 

[Ianno87]

They're not quite getting all of the 323s; there's still some (9 IIRC) going off lease.
Is this likely to mean that some 4-car diagrams will still be needed on Glossop?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2020 ==


That's a bit trickier as, as far as I am aware, there is no SDO or even UDS on a 323, so all platforms on the route would have to be extended to accommodate 6*23m

That'll be interesting at Dinting...

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a bit trickier as, as far as I am aware, there is no SDO or even UDS on a 323, so all platforms on the route would have to be extended to accommodate 6*23m

There's not a capacity issue so I doubt they would do that, just stick with 3-car and increasing the frequency in the peaks as they do now (I think).

 

[Llama]

The majority of Airport - Blackpool services currently skip Blackrod and Adlington, which have platforms less than 6-car length. But they all call at Leyland, which also has short platforms.

I do not know what scope there is for platform extensions at these stations, or swapping the calls to other services.

Blackrod can accommodate six-car 331s in the up direction only since it was lengthened a few years ago. In the down direction it can only accommodate four.

 

[_toommm_]

There's not a capacity issue so I doubt they would do that, just stick with 3-car and increasing the frequency in the peaks as they do now (I think).

The three cars are now full at peaks with social distancing. Even the relatively early 6:00ish departure into Manchester is full. Trains after that are full and standing.

 

[Mollman]

The majority of Airport - Blackpool services currently skip Blackrod and Adlington, which have platforms less than 6-car length. But they all call at Leyland, which also has short platforms.

I do not know what scope there is for platform extensions at these stations, or swapping the calls to other services.

At Leyland it is only the rear coach of a 6-coach formation that is off the platform, SDO is used.

 

[158757]

At Leyland it is only the rear coach of a 6-coach formation that is off the platform, SDO is used.

That depends on the platform, on the down slow you'll only get 4 coaches on the usable part of the platform, so the system treats both down platforms the same since it can't tell the difference. It can be overridden if you are on the down fast. I believe it's the same on the up fast, although it depends on where the driver stops as to how much of coach 5 is on the platform.

 

[Dspatula]

Going off my rough working to cover the busiest Blackpool-MIA/Hazel Groves would need 6 double sets so 12x3 car 331 with 3x 4car 311s to cover the others, along with 7x 4car 331s to cover Liverpool-Blackpool/Wigan. So 10x4 and 12x3 in service with likely total of 12x4 and 15x3 in the west which I’m assuming is at least doable although things may get tight when the 319s go and another 2 units are needed to cover Preston-Victoria if 323 training isn’t complete at that point.

Long term if there’s a wish to sub double 323s on some diagrams going off the sectional appendix the problem platforms are;
Layton Up 98m (140m)
Salwick Up 93m Down 93m
Leyland 1-3 101m (120m) 4 100m
Adlington Up 127m Down 124m
Blackrod Up 114m (140m) Down 114m
Davenport Both 138m (140m)
Woodsmoor Both 90m
Gatley Up 106m Down 122m
East Didsbury Up 104m Down 112m
Mauldeth Road Up 121m

Focusing on the Blackpool- Hazel Grove drops the requirement for platform extensions to Leyland, Adlington, Blackrod and Woodsmoor. Allowing up to 4 of the 5 diagrams to be run by 323s (one starts in Stoke and still need ASDO) in turn allowing all Blackpool-airports to be 6 cars or all Liverpool- Blackpool depending on demand, freeing 4x 4car 331s for use on Hadfield services.

West EMU use would be roughly;
331s
Blackpool Hazel Grove 8x3 1x4
Blackpool Man Airport 4x3 2x4
Blackpool Liverpool 3x4
Wigan Liverpool 4x4
Total 12x3 10x4 [15x3][12x4]

323s
10 Liverpool-Crewe-Piccadilly-Crewe-Liverpool-Warington
3 Hadfield
3 Stoke
1 peak Liverpool-Man Vic
1 peak Stoke
2 Preston-Victoria
+2 for lazy counting
22 [34]
with extras
3 Man-Macclesfield
1 extention to Stalybridge
+1 other
27 [34]

And after platform extensions;
331s
Blackpool Hazel Grove 4x3
Blackpool Man Airport 8x3
Blackpool Liverpool 3x4
Wigan Liverpool 4x4
Hadfield 3x4
Total 12x3 10x4 [15x3][12x4]

323s
10 Liverpool-Crewe-Piccadilly-Crewe-Liverpool-Warington
6 Blackpool Hazel Grove
3 Stoke
3 Preston-Stalybridge
3 Man-Macclesfield
1 peak Liverpool-Man Vic
1 peak Stoke
+3 for lazy counting/other
30 [34]

If passenger numbers do recover I think to long term issue may actually be a lack of 4 car 331s which a lot routes getting single 323s already could have done with pre-pandemic.

 

[Halish Railway]

Is anyone able to confirm whether these training runs are running tomorrow?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Shipley all day on 20/12/2020

Train information at Shipley all day on 20/12/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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[jonesy3001]

Is anyone able to confirm whether these training runs are running tomorrow?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Shipley all day on 20/12/2020

Train information at Shipley all day on 20/12/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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If the weather gets better I'll probably have a trip up to menston station to see what it is, probably driver training.

 

[scrapy]

Leyland slow platforms were temporarily extended a few years ago during electrification works to allow 6 car 150s to stop. It should be relatively easy to extend them again to allow 6 car 323s to stop although these would need to be 18m longer than the previous extension.

 

[CJ]

From memory, the stations on the Styal Line all had relatively long platforms, but around 15 years ago, they were refurbished/remodelled to be more accessible and platforms were also rebuilt (and in that, made the platforms shorter).

I don't think it would be too difficult to extend these platforms back to the lengths they once were.

 

[IanXC]

That still means about 21 3-coach sets will be kept in the west though (18 in service, 3 for maintenance/spare). So out of the 10 going to the east, only about 8 in service each day but with all the 4-car trains in the west. There will be probably be some Yorkshire 331 services. going from 4 carriages to 3.

What makes you think only 10 would go east? Without counting up that probably would mean they would only operate on their own with no 6 car working which would seem to miss the point of the exercise!

The use of 12x 4 car in the east I guess would be only on the basis there were 3x 321 and 5x 322 to replace, plus a couple of diesel under the wires diagrams on Leeds North West, so by the time you have 9 plus a maintenance spare and cover for the 333 refurbishment programme then you don't really want to end up with just 2 left in the West.

12*4 is 48 vehicles, which in 3 car sets is 16...

 

[Greybeard33]

Going off my rough working to cover the busiest Blackpool-MIA/Hazel Groves would need 6 double sets so 12x3 car 331 with 3x 4car 311s to cover the others, along with 7x 4car 331s to cover Liverpool-Blackpool/Wigan. So 10x4 and 12x3 in service with likely total of 12x4 and 15x3 in the west which I’m assuming is at least doable although things may get tight when the 319s go and another 2 units are needed to cover Preston-Victoria if 323 training isn’t complete at that point.

Long term if there’s a wish to sub double 323s on some diagrams going off the sectional appendix the problem platforms are;
Layton Up 98m (140m)
Salwick Up 93m Down 93m
Leyland 1-3 101m (120m) 4 100m
Adlington Up 127m Down 124m
Blackrod Up 114m (140m) Down 114m
Davenport Both 138m (140m)
Woodsmoor Both 90m
Gatley Up 106m Down 122m
East Didsbury Up 104m Down 112m
Mauldeth Road Up 121m

Focusing on the Blackpool- Hazel Grove drops the requirement for platform extensions to Leyland, Adlington, Blackrod and Woodsmoor. Allowing up to 4 of the 5 diagrams to be run by 323s (one starts in Stoke and still need ASDO) in turn allowing all Blackpool-airports to be 6 cars or all Liverpool- Blackpool depending on demand, freeing 4x 4car 331s for use on Hadfield services.

West EMU use would be roughly;
331s
Blackpool Hazel Grove 8x3 1x4
Blackpool Man Airport 4x3 2x4
Blackpool Liverpool 3x4
Wigan Liverpool 4x4
Total 12x3 10x4 [15x3][12x4]

323s
10 Liverpool-Crewe-Piccadilly-Crewe-Liverpool-Warington
3 Hadfield
3 Stoke
1 peak Liverpool-Man Vic
1 peak Stoke
2 Preston-Victoria
+2 for lazy counting
22 [34]
with extras
3 Man-Macclesfield
1 extention to Stalybridge
+1 other
27 [34]

And after platform extensions;
331s
Blackpool Hazel Grove 4x3
Blackpool Man Airport 8x3
Blackpool Liverpool 3x4
Wigan Liverpool 4x4
Hadfield 3x4
Total 12x3 10x4 [15x3][12x4]

323s
10 Liverpool-Crewe-Piccadilly-Crewe-Liverpool-Warington
6 Blackpool Hazel Grove
3 Stoke
3 Preston-Stalybridge
3 Man-Macclesfield
1 peak Liverpool-Man Vic
1 peak Stoke
+3 for lazy counting/other
30 [34]

If passenger numbers do recover I think to long term issue may actually be a lack of 4 car 331s which a lot routes getting single 323s already could have done with pre-pandemic.

What makes you think only 10 would go east? Without counting up that probably would mean they would only operate on their own with no 6 car working which would seem to miss the point of the exercise!

The use of 12x 4 car in the east I guess would be only on the basis there were 3x 321 and 5x 322 to replace, plus a couple of diesel under the wires diagrams on Leeds North West, so by the time you have 9 plus a maintenance spare and cover for the 333 refurbishment programme then you don't really want to end up with just 2 left in the West.

12*4 is 48 vehicles, which in 3 car sets is 16...

@Dspatula calculated above that only 15x 3-car will be needed in the west (12 in service, 3 spare). That would mean that 16 could go east, i.e. 48 vehicles, the same as the 12x 4-car that would move west....

 

[jonesy3001]

On the airedale and wharfedale lines you can only fit a 4 car on some of the stations, be pointless having 3 car or 6 car runs.