Northern and TPE Short List Announced

[DarloRich]

and cue the fan boy comments!

interesting to see who comes out as winnders and how they put thier plans into action. I really dont care who runs a service or what colours they paint things as long as they do a good job.

Go-Ahead will have a good section of Northern public transport if they win!

 

[Qwerty133]

I imagine inherited hatred towards EMT and XC.

think that if that's what you want to think.
Otherwise, there's practises in use at Arriva TOCs which I don't agree with, and can see them introducing unnecessary first class, reducing standard class capacity further. They also seem happy to do the bare minimum with service levels and I could see the off peak restrictions becoming even stronger, and all easements to them removed.
As for stagecoach, I worry that with around a year left in the EMT franchise, that the competent managers will all leave EMT, for the TPE franchise. (not like I'd blame them, as their future would otherwise be uncertain). This could leave EMT in a mess by the end of the franchise, which could take years to rectify.

 

[northwichcat]

and can see them introducing unnecessary first class, reducing standard class capacity further.

Well if certain routes/sections of routes get transferred from TPE to Northern then introducing First Class on some Northern services will be retaining the existing choice.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would think it highly amusing if no-one bothered to submit a tender for the Northern franchise (someone has already referred to it as a poisoned chalice) and DOR are left to pick up the tab. If so, I have visions of future rolling stock problems continuing.

 

[387star]

Arriva for the Northern franchise...?

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!

I'm already having flashbacks to the misery suffered at the hands of Arriva "When we can be bothered to run" Trains Northern*, especially towards the end....

I dread to think what they could do with even older stock than when they left the franchise.

(* This is not dig at the staff of the time BTW, just the way the franchise seemed to be run from a passenger perspective)

Odd they now run a franchise as good as chiltern but people have such poor memories of ATN... ATW also used to have a mixed image but in the past few years the image has been transformed (153/158/175 refurbishments and the WAG express) thanks to the welsh assembly government in part ... Obviously ROSCOs should do more as well

 

[bb21]

Otherwise, there's practises in use at Arriva TOCs which I don't agree with, and can see them introducing unnecessary first class, reducing standard class capacity further.

If you are referring their introduction on the 170s then you will find that it is a franchise commitment, not Arriva's fault. Blame it on the DfT.

It is only one end of each 170 unit. If the service really is that wedged, the guard wouldn't be able to make it through anyway, and on the couple of occasions when this happens, I have always seen the guard declassifying the First area. Granted I can't guarantee you it always happens but my experiences are positive.

They also seem happy to do the bare minimum with service levels and I could see the off peak restrictions becoming even stronger, and all easements to them removed.

Off-Peak ticket restrictions I can agree with, but that is going to be a trend with all operators with further squeezes on government subsidy, whoever wins the franchise.

If by "do the bare minimum with service levels" you mean the Stansted/Leicester routes, then tell me what else they can do with the constraint on rolling stock? I have been in regular conversation with XC over capacity issues on this line for years, and their hands are pretty much tied on that. It was made worse with the with the withdrawal of the direct Coventry services.

As for stagecoach, I worry that with around a year left in the EMT franchise, that the competent managers will all leave EMT, for the TPE franchise. (not like I'd blame them, as their future would otherwise be uncertain). This could leave EMT in a mess by the end of the franchise, which could take years to rectify.

They won't. TPE personnel will remain for the foreseeable future, and if there were to be reshuffles, it is only normal practice for any transport group.

Your worries are mainly down to whether Stagecoach wins the next EM franchise. It has nothing to do with whether they win the TPE franchise. If a TOC is going to run down a franchise because it is being handed over soon, it will do so, regardless of other factors.

In any event, judging from your regular thoughts on EMT management, I would think any change would be considered a good change.

 

[aylesbury]

According to the minister the government are going to deliver a world class railway to the north. This will cost a great deal of money given the run down stock and infrastructure.

I have heard this before on other franchises but there is only one franchise that really ticks all the boxes and that is Chiltern; they care about customers, keep the stock and stations tidy plus they are introducing new services.

Northern is a poisoned challis for any incumbent and now that local government has increased input its going to be a nightmare.

So good luck to everyone in the north one day you might get a good service but it's a long way off.

 

[Jonny]

Go-Ahead would have competition issues in the North-East re: their bus operation.

 

[northernchris]

Arriva for the Northern franchise...?

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!

I'm already having flashbacks to the misery suffered at the hands of Arriva "When we can be bothered to run" Trains Northern*, especially towards the end....

I dread to think what they could do with even older stock than when they left the franchise.

(* This is not dig at the staff of the time BTW, just the way the franchise seemed to be run from a passenger perspective)

Think I'm in a minority but I'd be happy for Arriva to win. They've really transformed their bus operations in Yorkshire and by the end of ATN they had made some decent improvements. Equally I think Abellio would be good as they have done a good job at Northern

 

[WatcherZero]

I think people remember the disaster that was Arriva Trains Northern. Some of it wasnt their fault, stock shortages, millitant unions post privatisation, however bad management was a factor leading to the axing of services.

 

[Qwerty133]

Off-Peak ticket restrictions I can agree with, but that is going to be a trend with all operators with further squeezes on government subsidy, whoever wins the franchise.

If by "do the bare minimum with service levels" you mean the Stansted/Leicester routes, then tell me what else they can do with the constraint on rolling stock? I have been in regular conversation with XC over capacity issues on this line for years, and their hands are pretty much tied on that. It was made worse with the with the withdrawal of the direct Coventry services.

The main thing is probably an earlier service on a Sunday from Leicester to Birmingham, especially in the run up to Christmas. By earlier I don't mean massively earlier but either 30 or 60 mins before the current first service. The first service on a Sunday should not be the most overcrowded service in the week, and as it is already at maximum length something else needs to be done.

 

[yorksrob]

According to the minister the government are going to deliver a world class railway to the north.

He's clearly not read his own consultation then.

 

[David Barrett]

According to the minister the government are going to deliver a world class railway to the north.This will cost a great deal of money given the run down stock and infrastructure.I have heard this before on other franchises but there is only one franchise that really ticks all the boxes and that is Chiltern.They care about customers,keep the stock and stations tidy plus they are introducing new services.Northern is a poisoned challis for any incumbent and now that local government has increased input its going to be a nightmare .So good luck to everyone in the north one day you might get a good service but its a long way off.

Of course a lot of boxes can be ticked given an opportunistic flow of DMUs from Trans Pennine to Chiltern; if only Leeds was closer to Aylesbury.

 

[43074]

I don't actually mind who wins these franchises. I do think that if Arriva did win Northern, it could go one of two ways - if they were to run it similar to Arriva Trains Wales, I think they could be quite good, and the Wales and Borders franchise is quite similar to Northern running over a large patch and a variety of different services. However, if it were to be run like CrossCountry or Arriva Trains Northern, then heaven help us!

Not too fussed by TPE personally, although I hope First keep it because I think they're doing a good job at the moment.

The main thing is probably an earlier service on a Sunday from Leicester to Birmingham, especially in the run up to Christmas. By earlier I don't mean massively earlier but either 30 or 60 mins before the current first service. The first service on a Sunday should not be the most overcrowded service in the week, and as it is already at maximum length something else needs to be done.

Earlier Sunday services are not possible because it would affect Network Rail's (NR) maintenance schedules. The line between Leicester and Nuneaton has trains running 24/7 anyway with freight, so Saturday nights to Sunday mornings are the only window NR can carry out essential maintenance.

Having said that, I do agree that earlier Sunday services are required on the route, as well as more frequent trains in the rest of the week - the timetable has hardly changed since the early 1990s, except the withdrawal of the Coventry service! However, this thread is about the Northern franchises so let's leave it at that!

 

[northwichcat]

Go-Ahead would have competition issues in the North-East re: their bus operation.

Would they?

Remember Arriva used to have Liverpool-Sunderland rail services, all the Merseyrail services and the bus services in Merseyside.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think people remember the disaster that was Arriva Trains Northern. Some of it wasnt their fault, stock shortages, millitant unions post privatisation, however bad management was a factor leading to the axing of services.

Someone once claimed Arriva Trains Northern had enquired about refurbishing their 150/2s to the same standard as the 156s but decided given the franchise didn't have left to long on it they decided the cost was too high. Maybe if it wasn't for the MTL collapse the 150/2s would have been refurbished.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Don't forget ATN's franchise area included Manchester, Stockport, Warrington and Liverpool with Arriva operating buses in all 4.

However, it's the Arriva contract for non-emergency hospital transportation which is Arriva's main failure in the North West at the moment.


http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...kport-delay-misery-vulnerable-elderly-7291921

I do wonder however, how much of the outrage over the ATSL and NSL PTS conmtracts is being stirred up by the unions, same as they are stirring over the use of contractors on A+E work simply because their greed ( techs in band 5 ? yeah right ) and intransigence ( can't 'cross crew ' with contractors or the voluntary sector ) in the first place led to the scenario where it is cheaper to pay a contractor to provide a vehicle and crrew, sometimes from well out of area than it is to operate their own vehicles

delay, wrong addresses and long waits were common under directly managed NHS PTS contracts as well , just it doesn;t suit the Unions and their Labourr minions to breing that up ...

 

[talltim]

I really don't think that bus operations are considered when looking the (anti) competition side of rail franchise awarding.

 

[Deerfold]

Would they?

Remember Arriva used to have Liverpool-Sunderland rail services, all the Merseyrail services and the bus services in Merseyside.

Do they have any restrictions due to their extrensive bus and rail operations in Wales (as a proportion of all bus and rail operations)?

I really don't think that bus operations are considered when looking the (anti) competition side of rail franchise awarding.

They certainly have been in the past for Scotrail and National Express when they were awarded the MML contract - First have restrictions on removing bus services in Scotland and National Express coaches had restrictions imposed on changes to routes and fares between the Midlands and London.

 

[Yorkshireguy]

I do like Southeastern, which Govia have held, so maybe they can change the image of the Northern franchise, from "old, noisy trains" to at least "decent". I suppose the real likes and dislikes will come down to what the companies say they'll do with the franchise.

 

[158756]

I do like Southeastern, which Govia have held, so maybe they can change the image of the Northern franchise, from "old, noisy trains" to at least "decent". I suppose the real likes and dislikes will come down to what the companies say they'll do with the franchise.

They'll probably get a better image on newly electrified routes, especially if they refurbish the 319s, but a Pacer is still a Pacer, whoever operates it. The bad news stories have already started, with North West Tonight(yesterday) showing First, Abellio, Keolis etc. alongside reduced services, higher fares, fewer ticket offices and no staff on trains.

 

[Via Bank]

I do like Southeastern, which Govia have held, so maybe they can change the image of the Northern franchise, from "old, noisy trains" to at least "decent"

You try telling that to someone who regularly uses SE's metro services!

It really depends on what the new franchise holder does in the way of improvements more than anything. An awful lot of the North's problems are with image, which Southeastern has always struggled with (with good reason, the state the Networkers and many of the short-distance Electrostars are in is frankly disgraceful.) Southern, on the other hand, have done a good job with their refurbishments of the 313s etc., so if they won, one would hope a similar attitude would be brought to the station environments, and also refurbishments of the 319s and the (hopefully final) tarting-up of the Pacers.

 

[HH]

They'll probably get a better image on newly electrified routes, especially if they refurbish the 319s, but a Pacer is still a Pacer, whoever operates it. The bad news stories have already started, with North West Tonight(yesterday) showing First, Abellio, Keolis etc. alongside reduced services, higher fares, fewer ticket offices and no staff on trains.

This is a bit daft as no way will TPE be bid on reduced services, etc. As far as Northern is concerned we will have to await the ITT, but maybe the Tories have decided it's not worth trying to "buy" votes in the North and NWT have it right as far as Northern is concerned...

 

[387star]

Southeastern have done nothing major to their trains it seems since taking over

 

[Andrew32]

The bad news stories have already started, with North West Tonight(yesterday) showing First, Abellio, Keolis etc. alongside reduced services, higher fares, fewer ticket offices and no staff on trains.

Hope the no staff on trains doesn't come true as I've just started as a conductor with northern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as Northern is concerned we will have to await the ITT

What's an ITT?

 

[Class377/5]

What's an ITT?

Invitation To Tender. Basically inviting the short listed companies to say how they would run the franchise.

 

[BurtonM]

I'd welcome Stagecoach on TPE, in my experience they've always been pretty good. Not too keen on how First run things, and I have no opinion on Keolis, though I do approve somewhat of Go-Ahead from my experiences in the ex-NSE region.
As for Northern: Abellio would be welcomed, and Arriva if the service was anything like ATW. Govia, see above. No more Serco is a good thing.
It'd be nice to be able to walk into my local station (Stalybridge) and see a train that isn't dirty and purple, too!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It'd be nice to be able to walk into my local station (Stalybridge) and see a train that isn't dirty and purple, too!

I suppose that you can console yourself with the knowledge that your local station of Stalybridge has had much improvements to it in recent times, so all is not all that bad in your corner of the world.

 

[northwichcat]

I would think it highly amusing if no-one bothered to submit a tender for the Northern franchise (someone has already referred to it as a poisoned chalice) and DOR are left to pick up the tab.

I very much doubt that would happen with any franchise. Serco are wanting to prove they can run franchises by themselves which is probably why they got the Scottish Sleeper franchise which didn't really interest the big players. While both Renfe and Trenitalia would both like to operate a British franchise but they have a difficult job in trying to get one ahead of the big companies who have already proved they can operate a UK rail franchise, so a franchise with little interest from the big players would be ideal for them.

 

[HH]

I very much doubt that would happen with any franchise. Serco are wanting to prove they can run franchises by themselves which is probably why they got the Scottish Sleeper franchise which didn't really interest the big players.

One has to wonder whether, after losing DLR and now Northern, they will retain interest in Rail. I understand that they have been using non-rail people on their rail bids in order to cut costs, which may explain their poor showing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One has to wonder whether, after losing DLR and now Northern, they will retain interest in Rail. I understand that they have been using non-rail people on their rail bids in order to cut costs, which may explain their poor showing.

Well they have another 14 years with Abellio at Merseyrail, an operation which has a decent reputation (though as a concession, the PTE (Merseytravel) takes some of the key decisions and risks).