Northern and TPE Consultation Document

[158756]

It's more important to specify the services DfT and RN are prepared to pay for (routes and frequencies, particularly after electrification and Northen Hub).
What trains are used on NT and TP is secondary, and indeed should be down to the bidders and not specified in the ITT.

If left entirely to the bidders though would a 'race to the bottom' not be likely?
As in the winning bid could well propose a diesel fleet at the end of the franchise composed entirely of Pacers and D Stock, with no refurbishments or DDA compliance?

 

[Stats]

The ITT is to be issued in 'the next few weeks.' It's rumoured the ITT for Northern isn't going to say bidders must replace Pacers or anything about new and modern stock but that the bidder must specify how they are going to move towards having a fleet of properly bogied trains.

Hmmm.... doesn't seem to agree with what Claire Perry said on Thursday in answer to a written parliamentary question. Why would DfT ministers still be pushing the Chancellor's statement if they were considering a different direction?

We are committed to improving services for passengers across the North of England. Pacers fall short of passengers’ expectations. As the Prime Minister has said, we will be asking bidders for the Northern franchise to propose plans to phase these outdated trains out. All franchise competitions are evaluated for quality as well as cost.

In presenting his Autumn Statement to Parliament, the Chancellor said that in the new Northern and TransPennine Express franchises Pacers would be replaced and that new and modern trains would be introduced.

 

[krus_aragon]

Hmmm.... doesn't seem to agree with what Claire Perry said on Thursday in answer to a written parliamentary question. Why would DfT ministers still be pushing the Chancellor's statement if they were considering a different direction?

That doesn't seem contradictory to me.

"move towards a fleet of properly bogied trains" == "propose plans to phase these outdated trains out" == tell us what you'd do to get rid of these trains.

Note also that she quoted the Chancellor as saying

in the new Northern and TransPennine Express franchises Pacers would be replaced and [...] new and modern trains would be introduced

He didn't say that all pacers would be replaced.

 

[anti-pacer]

We have politicians coming on local news programmes and the likes promising investment and improvements for rail services in the North, but from reading these comments it seems backward steps are likely to be taken.

What next, cascade all the 185's somewhere else and we take on ATW's fleet of Pacers for TPE journeys?!

 

[northwichcat]

As in the winning bid could well propose a diesel fleet at the end of the franchise composed entirely of Pacers and D Stock, with no refurbishments or DDA compliance?

Winning bidder will have to use only fully compliant stock from December 2019 unless the Secretary of State for Transport issues an exemption order.

 

[Philip]

We have politicians coming on local news programmes and the likes promising investment and improvements for rail services in the North, but from reading these comments it seems backward steps are likely to be taken.

What next, cascade all the 185's somewhere else and we take on ATW's fleet of Pacers for TPE journeys?!

Or 185s to Chiltern, London Midland and Overground - in return for 172s.

 

[northwichcat]

Or 185s to Chiltern, London Midland and Overground - in return for 172s.

185s to London Overground would be the worst cascade of all time.

Fortunately, it looks like the 185s will remain at Ardwick unless Siemens deliver new trains which could instead be maintained at Ardwick.

 

[Wolfie]

That doesn't seem contradictory to me.

"move towards a fleet of properly bogied trains" == "propose plans to phase these outdated trains out" == tell us what you'd do to get rid of these trains.

Note also that she quoted the Chancellor as saying

in the new Northern and TransPennine Express franchises Pacers would be replaced and [...] new and modern trains would be introduced

He didn't say that all pacers would be replaced.

Indeed. I’m also looking forward to TPE’s Pacers being replaced….

Hmmm.... doesn't seem to agree with what Claire Perry said on Thursday in answer to a written parliamentary question. Why would DfT ministers still be pushing the Chancellor's statement if they were considering a different direction?

A statement without a timeline and a plan is only an aspiration.... with a timeline and a plan (and finance) it's a goer..

Certainly don't expect it to happen immediately.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It seems to me the one thing "we" (or is it "they"?) must not contemplate is blindly removing every last Pacer from the system unless AND until we have sufficient trains (of any type) to meet the needs of Northern. Because, right now, already, we do not. The first thing we need is "more". Much more. And we need it right now. Even to the extent of keeping a fleet of Pacers (if that's what there is) in warm storage at strategic places to cover contingencies and special events.

And then, and only then, should we consider "replacement". Better still if they were all coupling-compatible with each other.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It seems to me the one thing "we" (or is it "they"?) must not contemplate is blindly removing every last Pacer from the system unless AND until we have sufficient trains (of any type) to meet the needs of Northern.

Of course, one might enquire as the needs of those people for whom the original Disability and subsequent Equality Acts were considered when gaining the Statute Book, that subsequent procrastination over the many years in ensuring suitably fitted-out rail stock was obtained now sees the year 2015 being far nearer to the actual date that the Act states. The time period covers the time when both the Labour Party and the current Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition were the party in Government, so all of these are tarred with the same brush.

 

[northwichcat]

I imagine the apparent change is because someone at DfT has reminded the people in charge of the franchise specs that they want to give the impression that there's a free rolling stock market. If Porterbrook want to press ahead with making 143/4s complaint then saying Northern can't use Pacers beyond the end of the franchise gives the impression DfT are controlling the rolling stock market.

Saying Northern should only use complaint stock post-2019 and should move towards a higher standard of rolling stock are more neutral.

 

[Carlisle]

185s to London Overground would be the worst cascade of all time.

.

With the Gospel Oak -Barking electrification due soon , what would be the point of 185s transferring to London Overground ?

 

[northwichcat]

With the Gospel Oak -Barking electrification due soon , what would be the point of 185s transferring to London Overground ?

Apparently options are being examined to add capacity to LO services prior to electrification with electrification projects falling behind schedule. One suggestion is 3 car commuter D78 conversions as soon as they can built, which may be bad news for the rest of the country as the converted trains will then be cascaded elsewhere.

 

[Class377/5]

Apparently options are being examined to add capacity to LO services prior to electrification with electrification projects falling behind schedule. One suggestion is 3 car commuter D78 conversions as soon as they can built, which may be bad news for the rest of the country as the converted trains will then be cascaded elsewhere.

No such thing is being examIned at all. It's a suggestion from a commuter group, nothing more.

The bigger worrying news is 8x 172 not bring released.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One suggestion is 3 car commuter D78 conversions as soon as they can built, which may be bad news for the rest of the country as the converted trains will then be cascaded elsewhere.

That idea is a total indictment of the total paucity of forward thought in the provision of 21st century rolling stock and a "gold-star award" to the keen public relations and marketing of the idea by those charged with convincing all and sundry of the excellence of using those D78 converted units.

I am now considering coining the phrase of "Trabant Marketing Syndrome" to reflect such product marketing behaviour.

 

[CdBrux]

That idea is a total indictment of the total paucity of forward thought in the provision of 21st century rolling stock and a "gold-star award" to the keen public relations and marketing of the idea by those charged with convincing all and sundry of the excellence of using those D78 converted units.
.

Should a decent refurb into a reliable rolling stock be povided for incremental services when a limited top speed is not critical then this is could well be a very clever bit of forward thought. Test and build up the demand using a cheap solution and then invest if required, minimising risk (and taking money from other projects) if it doesn't. Very sound economic thinking.

Otherwise we do the usual British solution on insisting on gold plating everything and spending far to omuch money on too little projects. Don't let best be the enemy of better etc...

Of course if you will voluntarily pay more for your ticket, in your taxes etc...

What's more it seems this experiment is so far not costing the industry a hell of a lot, if anything.

 

[Deerfold]

Should a decent refurb into a reliable rolling stock be povided for incremental services when a limited top speed is not critical then this is could well be a very clever bit of forward thought. Test and build up the demand using a cheap solution and then invest if required, minimising risk (and taking money from other projects) if it doesn't. Very sound economic thinking.

Otherwise we do the usual British solution on insisting on gold plating everything and spending far to omuch money on too little projects. Don't let best be the enemy of better etc...

Of course if you will voluntarily pay more for your ticket, in your taxes etc...

What's more it seems this experiment is so far not costing the industry a hell of a lot, if anything.

A cheap solution? Like Pacers were originally? - and 30 years later they've largely not been replaced.

Where has this gold plating been? Certainly haven't seen any on my local lines (though the rather nice 333 trains which we *eventually* got on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines caused a massive increase in usage).

 

[CdBrux]

A cheap solution? Like Pacers were originally? - and 30 years later they've largely not been replaced.

Where has this gold plating been? Certainly haven't seen any on my local lines (though the rather nice 333 trains which we *eventually* got on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines caused a massive increase in usage).

before going off on a rant how about you read what I wrote?

 

[Class83]

Is there any indication of when they are likely to finish analysing feedback the consultation finished over 5 months ago, or are they trying to see out time until the election?

 

[Deerfold]

before going off on a rant how about you read what I wrote?

I read what you wrote. I'm querying your mentioning of our "habit of gold-plating" everything and asking if you can provide examples as my personal experience has been that the opposite has tended to be the case.

 

[CdBrux]

I read what you wrote. I'm querying your mentioning of our "habit of gold-plating" everything and asking if you can provide examples as my personal experience has been that the opposite has tended to be the case.

If a use can be found for this rolling stock where it's limited top speed is not a constraint (in particular to line capacity) and/or it's enabling provision of a new (incremental) service not existing today then surely a lowish cost solution such as this is better than a more expensive solution of purchasing new rolling stock.

If we purchase new rolling stock at a far higher cost purely and simply because we reject this plan "becasue they are not brand new" then that to me is quite unecessary gold plating.

I do agree fully that the pacers need to go in the next few years, ideally through a programme of electrification and cascade, although with the most of the current electrification projects being behind plan then that may become trickier.

 

[Deerfold]

If a use can be found for this rolling stock where it's limited top speed is not a constraint (in particular to line capacity) and/or it's enabling provision of a new (incremental) service not existing today then surely a lowish cost solution such as this is better than a more expensive solution of purchasing new rolling stock.

If we purchase new rolling stock at a far higher cost purely and simply because we reject this plan "becasue they are not brand new" then that to me is quite unecessary gold plating.

I do agree fully that the pacers need to go in the next few years, ideally through a programme of electrification and cascade, although with the most of the current electrification projects being behind plan then that may become trickier.

I struggling to see how this answers my question about where we've previously had "a habit of gold-plating" things - especially from someone who complained I hadn't read what they wrote.

 

[northwichcat]

Parliamentary question asked this week:

Lisa Nandy (Shadow Minister (Cabinet Office); Wigan, Labour)
To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, when the invitations to tender will be issued for the Northern Rail and TransPennine Express franchises.

Claire Perry (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport); Devizes, Conservative)
The Invitations to Tender for the Northern and TransPennine Express franchises will be published this quarter. The date will be announced in due course.

So no real idea?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Parliamentary question asked this week:
So no real idea?

Sounds like they are nowhere near ready to issue the ITTs.
When the countdown to an election reaches a certain point, government initiatives overflowing into the next parliament have to be agreed by the opposition before civil servants can commit the government spend.
DfT will have to be careful they don't fall foul of that rule.
Trouble is, Labour has no idea either about the Northern/TPE specs.
Their only point of difference is to potentially allow public bidders, but that is pretty much irrelevant to the issues causing the delay.
Interesting times...

 

[WatcherZero]

On the plus side the Future electrification group seems to be on schedule, had their final group meeting this week and still planning to submit their report towards end of February.

 

[CdBrux]

I struggling to see how this answers my question about where we've previously had "a habit of gold-plating" things - especially from someone who complained I hadn't read what they wrote.

OK, so my gold-plating "everything" reference was probably not the best in this respect, I was thinking about projects in the country as a whole as often mentioned on this and other forums, admittedly rolling stock is unlikely to be in that category.

It was not the main point I was trying to make which was that this idea could be good in limited circumstances as I described and is surely then better than buying (and probably having a longer leadtime to do so) brand new trains. I was challenging Paul's implied assertion that we should not accept these D78 units under any circumstances. If a suitable use according to my proposed criteria can be found and the product turns out to be safe, reliable and of an acceptable comfort level then why not? It could help increase passenger numbers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was challenging Paul's implied assertion that we should not accept these D78 units under any circumstances. If a suitable use according to my proposed criteria can be found and the product turns out to be safe, reliable and of an acceptable comfort level then why not? It could help increase passenger numbers.

My objection to the D78 units is specifically aimed at the company and its marketing strategy...not the units themselves. They seem to have had their strategy accepted without enough consideration of matters and one cannot but suspect that "certain palms may have received required greasing". How well known were this company in past days for large scale provision of rolling stock of a "second-hand" nature?


Is the Northern Rail franchise to be viewed in the same manner as the Island Line as the "Elephant's Graveyard" of unwanted London Underground rolling stock.

 

[northwichcat]

My objection to the D78 units is specifically aimed at the company and its marketing strategy...not the units themselves. They seem to have had their strategy accepted without enough consideration of matters and one cannot but suspect that "certain palms may have received required greasing". How well known were this company in past days for large scale provision of rolling stock of a "second-hand" nature?

Is the Northern Rail franchise to be viewed in the same manner as the Island Line as the "Elephant's Graveyard" of unwanted London Underground rolling stock.

If DfT want this to go ahead they should look at all the franchises and find suitable routes for converted D78s around the country. Not force Northern franchise bidders to replace Pacers and not allow them to order new DMUs or take on trains currently with other operators.

DfT will come up with an excuse that the TOCs chose the rolling stock and it's a commercial arrangement when we all know that isn't the case.

 

[Haydn1971]

If DfT want this to go ahead they should look at all the franchises and find suitable routes for converted D78s around the country. Not force Northern franchise bidders to replace Pacers and not allow them to order new DMUs or take on trains currently with other operators.

Completely agree with this. I don't object to the concept of the D78, but I will be annoyed if the deployment is forced upon Northern along with non-refurbished 319's with no other rolling stock improvements. There's dozens of places across the country where small fleets of D78's could make the difference on lines that are not economic enough to justify new or better stock. I currently expect the D78's being used to deliver commuter services in the north, which I'm afraid, just won't do.

 

[edwin_m]

If DfT want this to go ahead they should look at all the franchises and find suitable routes for converted D78s around the country. Not force Northern franchise bidders to replace Pacers and not allow them to order new DMUs or take on trains currently with other operators.

DfT will come up with an excuse that the TOCs chose the rolling stock and it's a commercial arrangement when we all know that isn't the case.

Having thought about this I'd say there are very few routes outside the Northern franchise where they would be suitable. Probably not enough for anyone else to take them on without getting into micro-fleets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My objection to the D78 units is specifically aimed at the company and its marketing strategy...not the units themselves. They seem to have had their strategy accepted without enough consideration of matters and one cannot but suspect that "certain palms may have received required greasing". How well known were this company in past days for large scale provision of rolling stock of a "second-hand" nature?

I think that is unlikely as well as potentially libellous.

They may not be too well known for rolling stock manufacture (who is?) but the people running this company were formerly leading players in Chiltern, who are by most reckonings one of the most successful train operators. They have spotted an opportunity and they are taking a gamble that it might be successful - how often does that happen in the railway industry?