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Northampton historical services

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DarloRich

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I moved to MK abut 12 years ago ( where has that gone?) not that long after the WCML modification had been completed. The south WCML service has always seemed pretty decent to me so it has been interesting to read how poor it was even a few years ago. I know the commuter zone has moved more and more north over the last 25 years but that Northampton had such a poor service seems odd.

A question on the "cobbler" services run by NSE and Silverlink (?) which were just before my time - was was the rationale behind them? Were they designed to offer well healed commuters south of Northampton a fast, comfortable and intercity like train? Also why were they NOT run by intercity - surely using thier stock in the down time between longer distance services would have been sensible?
 
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SargeNpton

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I moved to MK abut 12 years ago ( where has that gone?) not that long after the WCML modification had been completed. The south WCML service has always seemed pretty decent to me so it has been interesting to read how poor it was even a few years ago. I know the commuter zone has moved more and more north over the last 25 years but that Northampton had such a poor service seems odd.

A question on the "cobbler" services run by NSE and Silverlink (?) which were just before my time - was was the rationale behind them? Were they designed to offer well healed commuters south of Northampton a fast, comfortable and intercity like train? Also why were they NOT run by intercity - surely using thier stock in the down time between longer distance services would have been sensible?
The "Master Cobbler" was an additional loco-hauled commuter service using a Mk1 rake, introduced in the early 1970s to provide Northampton commuters a fast service to and from London. In the early days, if my recollection is correct, it had one intermediate stop at Bletchley. Something like 0740 from Euston, with the return from Euston at 1720. The coaches were one of the spare sets used for weekend charters and reliefs by the LM region (it pre-dated the sectors).

A few years later a second loco-hauled commuter working was introduced (gaining the nickname "Mistress Cobbler"), with an earlier departure from Northampton and later return from Euston, with an intermediate stop at Leighton Buzzard. This used Mk2 air-con coaches, booked for a Euston-Carlisle-Euston round trip between those morning and evening commuter turns.

Northampton (and Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard) commuter traffic had been increasing steadily since the 1960s WCML electrification, so these loco-hauled workings, using stock that would otherwise be sitting in sidings, relieved pressure on the EMUs picking up at other stations along the line of route.

After Milton Keynes Central opened, and again after sectorisation, the stopping patterns changed as did the coaching stock allocated (InterCity didn't like one of its sets being used for NSE benefit).
 
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RT4038

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I moved to MK abut 12 years ago ( where has that gone?) not that long after the WCML modification had been completed. The south WCML service has always seemed pretty decent to me so it has been interesting to read how poor it was even a few years ago. I know the commuter zone has moved more and more north over the last 25 years but that Northampton had such a poor service seems odd.

A question on the "cobbler" services run by NSE and Silverlink (?) which were just before my time - was was the rationale behind them? Were they designed to offer well healed commuters south of Northampton a fast, comfortable and intercity like train? Also why were they NOT run by intercity - surely using thier stock in the down time between longer distance services would have been sensible?
The rationale behind them was to provide additional peak period capacity between Northampton and Euston at peak times using rolling stock spare at that time, there being no spare capacity within the EMU fleet to provide them.

After Milton Keynes Central opened, and again after sectorisation, the stopping patterns changes as did the coaching stock allocated (InterCity didn't like one of its sets being used for NSE benefit).
I should imagine that the issue was that the InterCity sector wanted to use the train on an early evening departure from Euston, so was no longer available for the Northampton trip.

New EMU stock being delivered meant that the use of main line stock was no longer required (although Northampton has had a morning Pendolino or Voyager departure in recent years)
 

DarloRich

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The coaches were one of the spare sets used for weekend charters and reliefs by the LM region (it pre-dated the sectors).
thanks - that is the bit of info I didn't have ( i knew they existed as a train but being north east based then they were one step below the near mythical class 33/73!)

Also I assume stopping at Bletchley was sensible as a stopping point in those pre MKC days rather than for some crew related reason
After Milton Keynes Central opened, and again after sectorisation, the stopping patterns changes as did the coaching stock allocated (InterCity didn't like one of its sets being used for NSE benefit).
Did they stop running and then restart at a later date under Silverlink? I am sure i have seen pictures of class 90's hauling these trains.
The rationale behind them was to provide additional peak period capacity between Northampton and Euston at peak times using rolling stock spare at that time, there being no spare capacity within the EMU fleet to provide them.
thanks - that is the answer to my poorly worded question
New EMU stock being delivered meant that the use of main line stock was no longer required (although Northampton has had a morning Pendolino or Voyager departure in recent years)
by newer are we talking class 321 units or class 350?


EDIT - to add an extra question. Why Northampton as the termination point of these services? Was Rugby better served by IC trains in them olden days? Was Northampton the outer limit of the commuter demand at that time?

( I would say today that Rugby is very much London commuter land)
 

jfollows

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The "Master Cobbler" was an additional loco-hauled commuter service using a Mk1 rake, introduced in the early 1970s to provide Northampton commuters a fast service to and from London. In the early days, if my recollection is correct, it had one intermediate stop at Bletchley. Something like 0740 from Northampton, with the return from Euston at 1720. The coaches were one of the spare sets used for weekend charters and reliefs by the LM region (it pre-dated the sectors).
The WCML timetable was recast in 1974, when there was:
  • 1A06 E455 SX + 07:46 Northampton to Euston 08:41, calling at Bletchley only 08:02-08:03
  • 1B06 E455 SX + 17:33 Euston to Northampton 18:31, calling at Bletchley only 18:12-18:13
There wasn't a similar service in 1972 (another year for which I have the working timetable).

I travelled on one of the services about ten years later. They were timed E455 + (so 100mph) but allowed to be operated by class 81-85 locomotives without the normal weight restriction that would normally apply (315 tonnes or 9 coaches).
 
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Taunton

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What was all this van traffic. Or were the vans full of boots? !!!
Surprising to learn that they weren't. The Somerset & Dorset branch from Evercreech to Highbridge would have been even more of a useless basketcase were it not for the quite substantial van traffic from Clarke's shoes factory at Glastonbury (in adjacent Street, actually), which could make the sparse passenger service to the end in the 1960s have as many vans as coaches. At Highbridge there were normally a good number of spare parcels vans, kept there to be worked up to Glastonbury as required. The shoe traffic features in the well-known John Betjeman TV films of the line.
 

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Did they stop running and then restart at a later date under Silverlink? I am sure i have seen pictures of class 90's hauling these trains.

Yes. Silverlink did for a while in the early 2000s hire a Virgin Mk3 set and reinstate one round trip. I can't entirely remember why, probably capacity prior to the delivery of the 350s.
 

DarloRich

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Yes. Silverlink did for a while in the early 2000s hire a Virgin Mk3 set and reinstate one round trip. I can't entirely remember why, probably capacity prior to the delivery of the 350s.
Did Virgin not almost pull of out of MKC at peak hours causing commuter uproar hence why silverlink got the loco hauled train (s?) in?

( sorry all this is heresay as i wasn't in MK until 2010)
 

Bletchleyite

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Did Virgin not almost pull of out of MKC at peak hours causing commuter uproar hence why silverlink got the loco hauled train (s?) in?

I have a feeling it was earlier than that, but could be wrong. Though it is true that the VHF timetable withdrew morning peak calls after about 1900 and evening ones between about 1630 and 1900 from MKC. Some have since crept back, but it was probably necessary because the 8 car Pendolinos couldn't cope.
 

jfollows

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In 1983 the service had expanded to
  • 1A73 07:20 SX AIR + @ Northampton to Euston 08:19 calling at Leighton Buzzard 07:42
  • 1A42 07:36 SX + Northampton to Euston 08:39 calling at Wolverton 07:50, Bletchley 07:59
  • 1A06 07:46 SX + Northampton to Euston 08:48 calling at Milton Keynes Central 08:02, Leighton Buzzard 08:12
  • 1A83 08:13 SX + Northampton to Euston 09:23 calling at Milton Keynes Central 08:31, Bletchley 08:36, Leighton Buzzard 08:46
  • 1B06 17:14 SX + Euston to Northampton 18:11 calling at Bletchley 17:48
  • 1B07 17:18 SX + Euston to Northampton 18:18 calling at Leighton Buzzard 17s48, Milton Keynes Central 17s57
  • 1B08 17:45 SX AIR + @ Euston to Northampton 18:51 calling at Leighton Buzzard 18s17, Bletchley 18:25
  • 1B09 18:15 SX + Euston to Northampton 19:23 calling at Leighton Buzzard 18s45, Bletchley 18:52, Milton Keynes Central 18:58
NOTES:
+ 100mph stock
AIR air braked stock
@ air conditioned stock
s set down only
all E455 so timed for 13 coaches with class 86/2 (couldn't be class 87 except for 1A73 and 1B08)
 
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Taunton

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A question on the "cobbler" services run by NSE and Silverlink (?) which were just before my time - was was the rationale behind them? Were they designed to offer well healed commuters south of Northampton a fast, comfortable and intercity like train? Also why were they NOT run by intercity - surely using their stock in the down time between longer distance services would have been sensible?
These were actually an NSE initiative. There were other comparable "big train" commuter operations on Paddington to Oxford, and possibly elsewhere. Strangely, I was a semi-regular on the stock in the mid-late 1980s, because for some reason it was used at weekends by Inter-City, and always formed a Sunday evening service from Liverpool to Euston, leaving at about 5pm. It was pleasant, late-build Mk1 100mph stock, and in the days when IC charged £1, later £2, payable to the guard, for a first class upgrade on weekends, the Mk1 side compartment FK in the set was very nice travel, and I usually had the compartment to myself, much better than a Mk3 . It must have then been worked ecs back to Northampton late on Sunday. Still in BR blue/grey livery, with small NSE flashes on the side. It seems that IC not only didn't have spare stock for the weekdays peak, but not sufficient on Sundays either.
 

DarloRich

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These were actually an NSE initiative. There were other comparable "big train" commuter operations on Paddington to Oxford, and possibly elsewhere. Strangely, I was a semi-regular on the stock in the mid-late 1980s, because for some reason it was used at weekends by Inter-City, and always formed a Sunday evening service from Liverpool to Euston, leaving at about 5pm. It was pleasant, late-build Mk1 100mph stock, and in the days when IC charged £1, later £2, payable to the guard, for a first class upgrade on weekends, the Mk1 side compartment FK in the set was very nice travel, and I usually had the compartment to myself, much better than a Mk3 . It must have then been worked ecs back to Northampton late on Sunday. Still in BR blue/grey livery, with small NSE flashes on the side. It seems that IC not only didn't have spare stock for the weekdays peak, but not sufficient on Sundays either.
interesting - very pleasant travelling by the sound of it
 

jfollows

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A question on the "cobbler" services run by NSE and Silverlink (?) which were just before my time - was was the rationale behind them? Were they designed to offer well healed commuters south of Northampton a fast, comfortable and intercity like train? Also why were they NOT run by intercity - surely using thier stock in the down time between longer distance services would have been sensible?
Sorry to be pernickity, but especially in the context of this being the "cobbler" service this should really be "well heeled" rather than an observation of the quality of their medical care!
 

RT4038

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by newer are we talking class 321 units or class 350?
321 units

EDIT - to add an extra question. Why Northampton as the termination point of these services? Was Rugby better served by IC trains in them olden days? Was Northampton the outer limit of the commuter demand at that time?

( I would say today that Rugby is very much London commuter land)
Northampton only came into London commuter land after electrification in 1966. Prior to that, Bletchley was the farthest limit, and even then only relatively small numbers beyond Tring.

Rugby was a very self contained town up to the later 80s - both GEC (ex BTH) and the Cement works, and allied businesses, providing huge amounts of local employment - in the 50s and 60s many commuted in from the surrounding towns. There was some commuting to Coventry and Birmingham, but local employment was very much the rule. Any London commuting immediately after electrification [prior to was just not practicable] would have been very small indeed - probably railway staff on concession tickets and a few other more well heeled individuals (to afford the fares), but this has gradually built up over since the 90s as house prices further in have got more expensive. Rugby now has quite a bit of commuting to Birmingham too - WFH having taken its toll recently.
 
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jfollows

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Rugby in 1983 - for example - had fast services of its own to London at
  • 1A72 Rugby depart 06:53-07:59 arrive Euston, from Wolverhampton
  • 1A05 07:23-08:29 from Wolverhampton
  • 1A07 07:53-08:59 from Wolverhampton
  • 1A02 08:00-09:06 from Manchester Piccadilly
  • 1A14 08:54-10:00 from Holyhead
from London at
  • 1H16 16:35-17:34 to Manchester Piccadilly
  • 1P36 17:03-18:04 to Blackpool North
  • 1H17 17:35-18:35 to Manchester Piccadilly
  • 1P79 18:05-19:04 to Blackpool North
 
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RT4038

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Did Virgin not almost pull of out of MKC at peak hours causing commuter uproar hence why silverlink got the loco hauled train (s?) in?

( sorry all this is heresay as i wasn't in MK until 2010)
Virgin pulling out the MKC peak time calls was in the mid 2000s (?) , I think long after the loco hauled Northampton trains had disappeared.
 

Bletchleyite

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Virgin pulling out the MKC peak time calls was in the mid 2000s (?) , I think long after the loco hauled Northampton trains had disappeared.

The second (Silverlink) instance of the LH sets was at a similar time, though possibly a little earlier. I've seen one in person, so it has to have been August 2001 or later.
 

RT4038

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The second (Silverlink) instance of the LH sets was at a similar time, though possibly a little earlier. I've seen one in person, so it has to have been August 2001 or later.
I have a vague recollection of that, but it didn't last very long - possibly to the delivery of the 350s?
 

70014IronDuke

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15 years before, in 1965, the daytime departures from Euston for Northampton were 0845-1153-1500. About one every three hours. And it wasn't the electrification works restricting things, the 1950s were much the same. The hourly service introduced in 1966 was a revelation!
Interestingly, my first visit to Northampton Castle seemed to indicate it was a busy station. I reckon it was around 17.30 hrs, in the winter of 1960 - 61, and I wasn't there long - but two up passenger trains came in one after one another. One was hauled by 45722 Defence and the other by 45541 Duke of Sutherland. (This was the first parallel boiler Pat I had seen.) I wonder if the Blisworth line was blocked? But as I remember, both stopped, indicating a scheduled service.
 

SargeNpton

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EDIT - to add an extra question. Why Northampton as the termination point of these services? Was Rugby better served by IC trains in them olden days? Was Northampton the outer limit of the commuter demand at that time?

( I would say today that Rugby is very much London commuter land)
The "London & South East" fares area (pretty much what later became Network SouthEast) on the WCML extended as far as Long Buckby, but to all intents and purposes Northampton was the limit as far as sufficient London commuter demand went.

Rugby, being outside the LSE fares area, had much higher London fares which would have dampened demand.
 

87015

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Did Virgin not almost pull of out of MKC at peak hours causing commuter uproar hence why silverlink got the loco hauled train (s?) in?

( sorry all this is heresay as i wasn't in MK until 2010)
It was a shortage of 321s created by loads of them being moved to cover Birmingham work (mainly Walsalls I think) as the terrible timetable needed more units after the split at Northampton despite the service being dropped from 2tph to hourly. A number of GE sets moved to Bletchley for the same period but they still needed the peak hauled sets for just over a year (a late extension was due to late 350s).

 

RT4038

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It was a shortage of 321s created by loads of them being moved to cover Birmingham work (mainly Walsalls I think) as the terrible timetable needed more units after the split at Northampton despite the service being dropped from 2tph to hourly. A number of GE sets moved to Bletchley for the same period but they still needed the peak hauled sets for just over a year (a late extension was due to late 350s).

Ah yes - I remember this now! Didn't last ever so long.
 

Merle Haggard

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A few points;

The 'Cobbler' train was the result of an initiative by the newly-formed Northampton Development Corporation, the leader of which invited the Chairman of the B.R.B. to visit Northampton. Presumably the latter travelled by train, on the hourly service calling all stations in a 4 car 75 m.p.h. e.m.u. with draughty doors to almost every seating bay, which might have helped the argument. The Chairman agreed to a single fast service in each direction. The railway then was, of course, operations-led and it may possibly have been the case that the operators did not like being told what to do, not even by the Chairman, but they certainly took time and kept finding problems. It was claimed that there were no paths to cross fast line at the then-new Hanslope high speed crossover, so it crossed out at Bletchley initially - which gave rise to the Bletchley call, because the crossing was 20 m.p.h., so you might as well stop. Similarly, there was said to be a shortage of locos., so it was diagrammed for Cl82/3/4 - there was no spare in even the cl81/5 diagrams, allegedly! It started with the winter 1974 T.T., from memory. The stock was Mk1s and this was their only work of the day, spending the day in the sun on the bank outside Euston.
It was around BSK+CH+10xTSO and when it became full, there was pressure to have a second service, and eventually it reached 4. As it happened the Divisional Passenger Manager at the time lived at Leighton Buzzard, and he agreed to introduce one of services on the condition it called there so he could travel non stop to work. Such was the basis of decisions in those days.
The Airbraked train was an Oxley E-B-W Inter-City set that was otherwise running e.c.s. to Euston for the down morning peak and similarly in the evening- the decedent of this was the double Voyager e.c.s. from Central Rivers depot to Euston to form a down Holyhead that provided a morning up service from Northampton until the covid changes.
When the last train was introduced it was clear that difficulty in finding surplus Mk1s was being encountered. It, at one stage, included veteran SK 24006 and a few 48 seat SOs and an FO marked 'Motor-rail trains only'; some coaches were not actually branded '100m.p.h' but I'm sure that was fine...
The coaches in the Mk1 sets, all the way from 1974 to the demise in 1989, remained the same, and interestingly many of them are still around either on.heritage railways or charter trains. Mostly, they were the later ones with Formica panelling and aluminium window frames, and I remember 4936/84/94 and 4997- 5002* particularly. Right at the end, they got the NSE refurb of new lighting grey panelling and N.S.E. moquette.

Changing the subject, shoe traffic was lost to road in the 1960s, the last Northamptonshire rail traffic being from Rushden. There was a number of local carriers who specialised in the traffic, Townsends and Wilkinsons being the two I remember. However, it was costly traffic to carry because of the way the shoe industry worked. Each evening, shoe shops would place an order with the shoemakers (and there were many - even in the 1960s) to replace the shoes that had sold that day e.g. ;'one 7 1/2 brown men's brogue, one 9 black men's Oxford' - penny numbers. And the factory then made up the order, and sent it off. So very large numbers of small parcels to everywhere in G.B.

* the Cobbler sets were used on football specials at the weekends. On one occasion I recollect boarding the train and deeply etched by knife into the wood veneer of the vestibule, in enormous letters, was 'Q.P.R. = ' and then a very rude word. A couple of years ago, I similarly boarded a Mk 1 on the Great Central and that wording could just about be made out under thick new varnish.
 

Dr Hoo

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Thanks @Merle Haggard . Super reminiscences. I was on the London Division of the London Midland at the time of the great May 1974 WCML timetable re-vamp. (This included through electric working to Glasgow, of course, which is not for this particular thread.)

The "AC Residentials" as they were called had really taken off since the 1966 electrification and the AM10 units (Class 310) were to be thrashed to the max. Watford drivers, fed up with trundling on the DC, were trained up on the AM10s much to the annoyance of Bletchley but there was loads of new work to cover.

Units were 'bounced back' to get second peak runs out of them - previously an unknown concept. A crossover at Hemel Hempstead was signalled for passenger turnbacks. There were trains that terminated at Tring, Hemel Hempstead and Watford Junction (non stop!) as well as Bletchley, Northampton and Birmingham New Street. The 'Cobbler' was essential because there wasn't any spare EMU stock.

Residential departures (i.e. not DC) from Euston at 1550, 1605, 1620, 1635, 1650, 1701, 1704, 1712, 1716, 1719, 1728, 1731, 1733 (Cobbler), 1734, 1743, 1746, 1749, 1758, 1801, 1812, 1819 and 1835!

Still got sneers from Waterloo, Victoria, Charing Cross, Cannon Street, London Bridge, Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street but Euston had never seen anything like it. (And nothing whatsoever to do with Network SouthEast.)
 

jfollows

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1A06 timetable from 6 May 1974 to 4 May 1975 attached.
1B06 (17:33 down service) was booked to cross DF-DS at Leighton Buzzard; this was before Ledburn Junction existed of course.
EDIT Added 1B06 from the same timetable as well.
 

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GRONK08

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My Album on flickr shows some of the areas of interest you mention. The photos are from the late 80's/ early 90's including the bay platforms in use for parcels traffic & the remnants of the south bays alongside No.1 box.
 

Dr Hoo

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Super pics. Of course, Northampton was an 'island' of manual signal boxes that 'fringed' with Rugby panel both north and south.

I remember going in a freight brake van down to Far Cotton depot just about the time that it closed for wagonload freight, albeit continuing as an engineering depot.

Welcome to the Forums!
 
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