North Wales Questions

[The Planner]

Told you it would happen, Gresford Bank will still cause a couple of sticky bits if a freight is close to a train coming the other way as it will have to hang back to get a run, but otherwise unlocks a lot of potential. The schedules will get speeded up, but don't expect any new stations on the back of it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, there will still be about 2 miles on Gresford bank and over the A483 bridge remaining single. With modern signalling this should'nt be more than a minor irritance.

So is that 3 sets of points to go in (ie north and south of the A483 at Dodleston, and at Rossett for the bank) or 4 sets if they double south of Gresford towards Wrexham)?
Won't help much if the leads are 40mph or less.
Will Wrexham get direct access from the north to P2 (or even P3/4/Central) to avoid the run rounds at Watery Road?
Or at least to be able to start northwards from P1.
I imagine Saltney Jn will stay as a single lead.

 

[Michael.Y]

Whichever 67 it was stationed at Holyhead, it's just gone chuntering past us light just west of Rhyl (we're going to HHD). Too fast for me to pick out a number.

 

[cle]

Well it could be great if Holyhead - Cardiff could go hourly, and they could ditch the WAG Express trains - or intergrate them into the timetable. Could then drop some stations from the Manchester, which really should be hourly.

And perhaps the Holyhead could go to Milford Haven as a political gesture - and strip Manchester - Cardiff back to being more of a proper intercity service.

Birmingham - North Wales would be good at hourly too. Perhaps it could interwork or help the Cambrian line somehow.

Has the Wolves-Shrewsbury line speed work been done? Improvements are coming to the area I guess.

 

[The Planner]

So is that 3 sets of points to go in (ie north and south of the A483 at Dodleston, and at Rossett for the bank) or 4 sets if they double south of Gresford towards Wrexham)?
Won't help much if the leads are 40mph or less.
Will Wrexham get direct access from the north to P2 (or even P3/4/Central) to avoid the run rounds at Watery Road?
Or at least to be able to start northwards from P1.
I imagine Saltney Jn will stay as a single lead.

Will need to check the latest plans, but Saltney was always going to be a twin lead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Birmingham - North Wales would be good at hourly too. Perhaps it could interwork or help the Cambrian line somehow.

Has the Wolves-Shrewsbury line speed work been done? Improvements are coming to the area I guess.

Wolves Shrewsbury hasn't been done yet. If Birmingham North Wales went hourly then all the Cambrians would terminate at Shrewsbury.

 

[merlodlliw]

Will need to check the latest plans, but Saltney was always going to be a twin lead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wolves Shrewsbury hasn't been done yet. If Birmingham North Wales went hourly then all the Cambrians would terminate at Shrewsbury.

Has the local dailies see it
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...ment-scheme-for-wrexham-lines-55578-30575951/

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/111305/massive-wrexham-chester-rail-plan-revealed.aspx

http://www.wrexham.com/news/rail-lines-redoubled-wrexham-chester-36m-investment-5498.html

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Told you it would happen, Gresford Bank will still cause a couple of sticky bits if a freight is close to a train coming the other way as it will have to hang back to get a run, but otherwise unlocks a lot of potential. The schedules will get speeded up, but don't expect any new stations on the back of it.[/QUOTE.

Yes you did say it would happen,, my understanding is double track under the road & single up Gresford bank over the road, doing away with the dynamic loop system idea
reports tell me no new stations, no money for that. It seems the under bridge is wide enough for twin track, can you confirm this Planner.

Just to think the single track saved just £450K 30 years ago.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Wolves Shrewsbury hasn't been done yet. If Birmingham North Wales went hourly then all the Cambrians would terminate at Shrewsbury.

Wouldn't you need Cambrian linespeed improvements to terminate Cambrian trains at Shrewsbury? Could go somewhere other than Birmingham though.

When is Wolves Shrewsbury supposed to happen, and will it allow the ATW services to terminate at Birmingham New Street rather than International?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Funded in principle - awaiting NR delivery schedule

 

[The Planner]

When is Wolves Shrewsbury supposed to happen, and will it allow the ATW services to terminate at Birmingham New Street rather than International?

No chance of terminating ATWs at New St. They will still go to International, considering they arrive at New St in the up direction at xx26 and the downs depart at xx24, you would need to find somewhere in the region of 10 minutes to save the unit. It won't provide anywhere near such a saving, 2 or 3 minutes at best.

 

[cle]

Could they all run to Wolverhampton? A lot better than Shrewsbury surely. It has platform 6 to ensure no platform conflicts.

It has much better connections, including the London service primarily, but also more trains to Manchester as well as direct to Liverpool and Scotland. And XC services south of Birmingham too.

 

[transmanche]

If Birmingham North Wales went hourly then all the Cambrians would terminate at Shrewsbury.

Couldn't the Cambrians join/split at Shrewsbury instead?

 

[merlodlliw]

Funded in principle - awaiting NR delivery schedule

Funds already ring fenced & Guaranteed, agree awaiting NR delivery schedule, but it's going to happen, no back tracking this time.

Its all part of the December WG reassessment of priorities for rail


Bob

 

[The Planner]

Could they all run to Wolverhampton? A lot better than Shrewsbury surely. It has platform 6 to ensure no platform conflicts.

It has much better connections, including the London service primarily, but also more trains to Manchester as well as direct to Liverpool and Scotland. And XC services south of Birmingham too.

Except you cannot access platform 6 at Wolves from the North without a double shunt in the station. The last thing you need at Wolves is another train turning round there.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The through loadings to the Cambrian are far larger than for N Wales from Birmingham - simple fact of life. If you terminate Cambrians at Shrewsbury your turfing out close on footfall of 400K per annum and then do they cram abroad a 2 car unit from Holyhead?

Think it out please.

 

[The Planner]

Couldn't the Cambrians join/split at Shrewsbury instead?

Could do, but you often see 4 cars doing the International legs, so unless they split to make 2 cars to Aber/Holyhead which is often lamented on here it may not work.

 

[tbtc]

The through loadings to the Cambrian are far larger than for N Wales from Birmingham - simple fact of life. If you terminate Cambrians at Shrewsbury your turfing out close on footfall of 400K per annum and then do they cram abroad a 2 car unit from Holyhead?

Think it out please.

Presumably at some stage the plan will be:

• Hourly Birmingham International - Shrewsbury - Cambrian
• Hourly Holyhead - Shrewsbury - Cardiff

...and no Holyhead - Shrewsbury - Birmingham International?

 

[The Planner]

I don't think it will be, You will alternate Cambrian/Holyhead as you do now and any extras from Aberystwyth will either sit at Shrewsbury in the bays or possibly go up to Crewe and back.

 

[transmanche]

Presumably at some stage the plan will be:

• Hourly Birmingham International - Shrewsbury - Cambrian
• Hourly Holyhead - Shrewsbury - Cardiff

...and no Holyhead - Shrewsbury - Birmingham International?

I thought we were discussing what would happen if the Holyhead-Shrewsbury-Birmingham Intl[*] went hourly, after redoubling of Wrexham-Chester?

[*] Or at least Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham Intl. Perhaps it should be a Manchester-Warrington-Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham Intl service!

 

[tbtc]

I don't think it will be, You will alternate Cambrian/Holyhead as you do now and any extras from Aberystwyth will either sit at Shrewsbury in the bays or possibly go up to Crewe and back.

Fair enough boss.

I thought we were discussing what would happen if the Holyhead-Shrewsbury-Birmingham Intl[*] went hourly, after redoubling of Wrexham-Chester?

[*] Or at least Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham Intl. Perhaps it should be a Manchester-Warrington-Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham Intl service!

Daft idea, but if there's scope for more trains between Wrexham and Chester and there are to be additional trains from Manchester to Chester (once the DMUs freed up by electrification are tallied up) then could there be a Wrexham - Chester - Warrington - Manchester service (potentially extending beyond Manchester)?

(I don't think I need to explain why Manchester is more important for Wrexham travellers than Cardiff?)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Having checked the Wales Rail Planning Assessment (2005) and allowing for growth its probably well in excess of 500K per annum footfall that goes beyond Shrewsbury to West Midlands and beyond from Cambrian. Remember they only have 8 trains a weekday to be on. Replacing them with trains from Holyhead via Wrexham is dumb.

If the wires came to Salop and it was a Pendolino to Euston it might be different, but the consensus in Mid Wales is that we'd still like some direct trains to West Midlands even after Shropshire wires.

Beyond routing the WG express via Wrexhma i cant see much happening in terms of service pattern. Hopefully it will give them the flexibility for trains arriving from Cambrian to connect with Wrehxam/Chester bound trains rather than missing them by 1 minute.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Daft idea, but if there's scope for more trains between Wrexham and Chester and there are to be additional trains from Manchester to Chester (once the DMUs freed up by electrification are tallied up) then could there be a Wrexham - Chester - Warrington - Manchester service (potentially extending beyond Manchester)?

(I don't think I need to explain why Manchester is more important for Wrexham travellers than Cardiff?)[/QUOTE]

Could even be some scope to split/join North Wales portions at Chester giving better capacity Chester to Manchester?

 

[The Informer]

I like the bit:

"The scheme will also mean improved journey times between Gobowen and Shrewsbury with an increase in line speed up to 90 mph, at a further cost of £9.8m."

Despite my questions / suggestions about other routes, in its entirety, this will be a good thing for all.

Been itching to let this cat out the bag for ages!
We need to relay 52km of jointed and poor sections of track first. Its scheduled for 13/14 which makes sense with a delivery of 2015 as stated. The Borderlands should get a slice of that investment pie too.

 

[D1009]

There's probably a case for an additional hourly fast train between Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury, in fact didn't there used to be when the local stations were (unreliably) served by the Walsall - Wellington shuttle in Central Trains days ? Problem is there's not much room left for anything additional into New Street.

Can't we turn the Midland Metro back into a proper railway and run trains from Birkenhead to Paddington again ? (That's a joke by the way).

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The through loadings to the Cambrian are far larger than for N Wales from Birmingham - simple fact of life. If you terminate Cambrians at Shrewsbury your turfing out close on footfall of 400K per annum and then do they cram abroad a 2 car unit from Holyhead?

Think it out please.

Yes, it is much quicker - up to about 40 minutes from Bangor - for N Wales coast passengers to reach Birmingham via Crewe rather than Shrewsbury, and therefore I'm sure that Gareth's assertion is correct - altho' ATW's fares via Shrewsbury can be considerably cheaper, and that's why I've used this route before if I have the time.

 

[jones_bangor]

Yes, it is much quicker - up to about 40 minutes from Bangor - for N Wales coast passengers to reach Birmingham via Crewe rather than Shrewsbury, and therefore I'm sure that Gareth's assertion is correct - altho' ATW's fares via Shrewsbury can be considerably cheaper, and that's why I've used this route before if I have the time.

You're right - I always go to Birmingham via Crewe, much quicker.

 

[merlodlliw]

Been itching to let this cat out the bag for ages!
We need to relay 52km of jointed and poor sections of track first. Its scheduled for 13/14 which makes sense with a delivery of 2015 as stated. The Borderlands should get a slice of that investment pie too.

I noted your comments last week, the WG media release was aimed at the Tuesday papers(today),it had an embargo on it, not to be released until 1800 Monday.

Bob

Just to bring the excellent news to a conclusion,so to speak, Many of you will have seen the story on the BBC/ITV/S4C and an in depth on Radio Wales at 1750 hours
yesterday with interviews.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't think it will be, You will alternate Cambrian/Holyhead as you do now and any extras from Aberystwyth will either sit at Shrewsbury in the bays or possibly go up to Crewe and back.

Trains arrive Aberystwyth xx:25, leaving at xx:30
Cambrian trains arrive Shrewsbury from Cambrian at xx:25, and head west from Shrewsbury at xx:27. That's only 2 minutes (7 with 5mins padding) turnround. The Birmingham - Holyheads leave Shrewsbury for Birmingham at xx:31 and get back at xx:19.

From that, I guess the extra Aberystwyth services couldn't terminate at Shrewsbury. They could perhaps go to Crewe as you say, however something else that looks like it might work is couple the unit coming in from Aberystwyth to a Holyhead - Birmingham at Shrewsbury, then uncouple the extra Aberystwyths from Birmingham - Holyheads at Shrewsbury. My rather basic estimates (assuming the new passing loops allow the extra Aberystwyths to run at the same point of the (other) hour as the current Cambrians) suggest that would require two extra units to make Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury hourly provided you never strengthen west of Machynlleth or Holyhead - Shrewsbury beyond the normal 2-car.

 

[Penmorfa]

Report on Llangefni reopening:

THE cost of reopening a disused Anglesey railway line could cost more than £25m a feasibility study reveals.

The Welsh Government asked Network Rail to study re-opening part of the disused Amlwch branch from the main line junction at Gaerwen as far as Llangefni in 2009.

As part of the study, contractors cleared vegetation from the route, which still has track in place, having been last used by freight trains to the now-closed Octel plant at Amlwch in 1993.

Dated November 2010, the report has only now been published on the Welsh Government website.

Network Rail estimated the cost of re-instating the four and a half mile stretch of line at £25.1 million.

This would involve building a new junction at Gaerwen and associated signalling. The previous junction was removed a few years ago.

Although the track remains in place some renewal of track is required and trackbed repairs are also needed.

The study suggests an hourly local service should run from Llangefni to Llandudno Junction calling at Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr and Conwy.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...lwch-rail-line-would-cost-25m-55578-30586760/

 

[cle]

Could it not also do the Conwy Valley, interworking with the Llandudno (town) shuttle as that does with the through trains? Would provide some quite interesting through journeys.

I would also love a reopening to Caernarvon from Bangor. I think there's a lot of potential - not just for students/locals and their access to employment, but also tourism (all those castles!) and leisure - Caernarvon being quite a big nightlife spot for the area! And it has 10,000 people, not a tiny amount.

The A55 could use all the relief it can get, and car usage is so high in North Wales.

 

[Penmorfa]

Could it not also do the Conwy Valley, interworking with the Llandudno (town) shuttle as that does with the through trains? Would provide some quite interesting through journeys.



I would also love a reopening to Caernarvon from Bangor. I think there's a lot of potential - not just for students/locals and their access to employment, but also tourism (all those castles!) and leisure - Caernarvon being quite a big nightlife spot for the area! And it has 10,000 people, not a tiny amount.



The A55 could use all the relief it can get, and car usage is so high in North Wales.

The Conwy Valley seems destined to remain as it is, very difficult to improve matters without a lot of investment.

On these costings you can probably think in terms of £50 million to reopen Bangor - Caernarfon, so it's not going to happen.

This Llangefni project was dead in the water before this study was even started. Curing the traffic problems on the Britannia bridge could be easily achived with a system of traffic lights. Turning 4 lanes of traffic into 3 is'nt rocket science. It used to be done in the original Mersey Road Tunnel twice a day.

 

[merlodlliw]

Report on Llangefni reopening:

THE cost of reopening a disused Anglesey railway line could cost more than £25m a feasibility study reveals.

The Welsh Government asked Network Rail to study re-opening part of the disused Amlwch branch from the main line junction at Gaerwen as far as Llangefni in 2009.

As part of the study, contractors cleared vegetation from the route, which still has track in place, having been last used by freight trains to the now-closed Octel plant at Amlwch in 1993.

Dated November 2010, the report has only now been published on the Welsh Government website.

Network Rail estimated the cost of re-instating the four and a half mile stretch of line at £25.1 million.

This would involve building a new junction at Gaerwen and associated signalling. The previous junction was removed a few years ago.

Although the track remains in place some renewal of track is required and trackbed repairs are also needed.

The study suggests an hourly local service should run from Llangefni to Llandudno Junction calling at Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr and Conwy.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...lwch-rail-line-would-cost-25m-55578-30586760/

Also here Lein Llangefni? http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm