North Wales Questions

[emoaconr]

Cadw did not propose that the tip should be an ancient monument - that would clearly be nonsense - but a historic monument, a reminder of the area's industrial heritage. The tip is just about the last remaining sign of centuries of mining in that corner of Wales.

Even though permission to remove most of the tip has now been given, against the wishes of many local residents, the remaining colliery headgear is a legally-protected Scheduled Ancient Monument in the care of Wrexham County Borough Council and Bersham Colliery Trust.

And luckily the former Hafod tip is only the other side of the bypass.

As for the Wrexham-Saltney single issue... we'll have to see where Glenside want to take the waste - it may be entirely southbound since they are based in Birmingham. However it would still be a big incentive for the WG and NR to get going on the project...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To Cardiff on Gerald today, from F(f)lint.
Better loaded than usual, maybe 75% full throughout, but First Class complement through the Marches only 3.
Arrived early, 5 minutes later the set was going through the Canton washer.

Much mirth at the start.
Booked to Ninian Park.
Clerk had never heard of it, had to spell it out.
One in the eye for the Bluebirds.

Much signal cabling going on between Dorrington-Woofferton, new cabinets, troughing etc.
Are they resignalling, or just felling the semaphores, or something else?
I know the signalling is coming to the end of its life, but it would be a shame to lose all those old Joint Line square signal cabins - I think there are 5 left.
I hope at least one has a preservation order on it.

Nothing much to see of the new modular signalling system between Crewe-Shrewsbury.
Lots of metal frames with natty blue railings, but only a couple of new lights on sticks, near Whitchurch, with bags over them.

There was a big new concrete base south of Pontrilas which I take to be where the fabled extra Intermediate Block Signal is going in.

And who thought of wrapping all the semaphores round Shrewsbury with massive cylindrical metal safety cages?
I know it's only aesthetics but they look awful compared to the historic clean lines of a semaphore.
Many of them are coming down this year anyway. Seems a huge waste of money.
I'm not aware of any of this happening in other semapahore areas.

 

[The Informer]

And luckily the former Hafod tip is only the other side of the bypass.

As for the Wrexham-Saltney single issue... we'll have to see where Glenside want to take the waste - it may be entirely southbound since they are based in Birmingham. However it would still be a big incentive for the WG and NR to get going on the project...

Something aint right about this Bersham project. I have got my ears to the ground and will post as soon as. On the re-double I'm hearing its a 5 mile loop that's been approved but I aint seen no hard evidence as yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even though permission to remove most of the tip has now been given, against the wishes of many local residents, the remaining colliery headgear is a legally-protected Scheduled Ancient Monument in the care of Wrexham County Borough Council and Bersham Colliery Trust.

Am I right in thinking that if approval for the railborne removal of the waste was granted, not only would the retention of the colliery headgear would be insisted upon, but a mining musuem with associated projects also be written into the contract.

 

[The Informer]

Am I right in thinking that if approval for the railborne removal of the waste was granted, not only would the retention of the colliery headgear would be insisted upon, but a mining musuem with associated projects also be written into the contract.

That is part of the deal. I think by the time the whole rail side of it is approved a lot of the tip would have been removed anyway. I'm having a little wager that NONE of it gets removed by rail!

 

[merlodlliw]

Am I right in thinking that if approval for the railborne removal of the waste was granted, not only would the retention of the colliery headgear would be insisted upon, but a mining musuem with associated projects also be written into the contract.

The Colliery headgear will be retained & other projects, The local National Union Of Mineworkers have seen to this as a record of mining in the area.
The agent said this was a far better tribute, than the tip, which the NUM agreed should go. The headgear at Bersham & projects will compliment the two mining statues
in Wrexham town Centre.

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/bersham_colliery.htm

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Something aint right about this Bersham project. I have got my ears to the ground and will post as soon as. On the re-double I'm hearing its a 5 mile loop that's been approved but I aint seen no hard evidence as yet.

The dynamic loop was part of the study, which would leave Rossett to Gresford Bank single. No way round the single overbridge on the busy Wrexham Expressway. As reported in this weeks Nth Wales Rail news, a 158 was stopped on the single track for 55 minutes near Wrexham, causing the usual chaos of back up lateness in both directions.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To Cardiff on Gerald today, from F(f)lint.
Better loaded than usual, maybe 75% full throughout, but First Class complement through the Marches only 3.
Arrived early, 5 minutes later the set was going through the Canton washer.

Much mirth at the start.
Booked to Ninian Park.
Clerk had never heard of it, had to spell it out.
One in the eye for the Bluebirds.

Much signal cabling going on between Dorrington-Woofferton, new cabinets, troughing etc.
Are they resignalling, or just felling the semaphores, or something else?
I know the signalling is coming to the end of its life, but it would be a shame to lose all those old Joint Line square signal cabins - I think there are 5 left.
I hope at least one has a preservation order on it.

Nothing much to see of the new modular signalling system between Crewe-Shrewsbury.
Lots of metal frames with natty blue railings, but only a couple of new lights on sticks, near Whitchurch, with bags over them.

There was a big new concrete base south of Pontrilas which I take to be where the fabled extra Intermediate Block Signal is going in.

And who thought of wrapping all the semaphores round Shrewsbury with massive cylindrical metal safety cages?
I know it's only aesthetics but they look awful compared to the historic clean lines of a semaphore.
Many of them are coming down this year anyway. Seems a huge waste of money.
I'm not aware of any of this happening in other semapahore areas.

Thanks for the info on numbers , loco haul is the best way,always was. always will be in my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting statement on Cardiff Airport by First Minister, I take Jones Bangors theory,why WAGAIR(same funding stable as WAG EXs) is kept flying to it. Time the rail service to Rhoose airport was sorted.
Carwyn Jones says Cardiff airport owners need to run it 'properly' or sell up
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17365581

Peter Phillips, chairman of Wales Air Network and a former head of marketing and communications at Cardiff Airport, said passenger numbers had fallen by close to 50% over four years.

"These days, the airport can be compared not to a capital city airport like Edinburgh or Belfast, but more like a regional airport like Newquay or Bournemouth. That's very sad," he said.

 

[jones_bangor]

That is part of the deal. I think by the time the whole rail side of it is approved a lot of the tip would have been removed anyway. I'm having a little wager that NONE of it gets removed by rail!

I definitely saw plans of sidings associated with this development.

 

[The Informer]

I definitely saw plans of sidings associated with this development.

Well let's hope the plans materialise.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well let's hope the plans materialise.

Jones Bangor is correct about the plans for sidings. Corkscrew lane is unsuitable for large lorries,which would have to climb, then stop on a hill to join the busy Ruabon Rd,
There is no roadway suitable on the other side of the tracks, I also don't see any other road being laid to join the Rhostyllen roundabout.
Rail is the only answer,less traffic,less pollution and dust, also a lorry wash would be mandatory before joining the main road, where would that be put.

 

[50010 Monarch]

To Cardiff on Gerald today, from F(f)lint.
Better loaded than usual, maybe 75% full throughout, but First Class complement through the Marches only 3.
Arrived early, 5 minutes later the set was going through the Canton washer.

Much mirth at the start.
Booked to Ninian Park.
Clerk had never heard of it, had to spell it out.
One in the eye for the Bluebirds.

Much signal cabling going on between Dorrington-Woofferton, new cabinets, troughing etc.
Are they resignalling, or just felling the semaphores, or something else?
I know the signalling is coming to the end of its life, but it would be a shame to lose all those old Joint Line square signal cabins - I think there are 5 left.
I hope at least one has a preservation order on it.

Nothing much to see of the new modular signalling system between Crewe-Shrewsbury.
Lots of metal frames with natty blue railings, but only a couple of new lights on sticks, near Whitchurch, with bags over them.

There was a big new concrete base south of Pontrilas which I take to be where the fabled extra Intermediate Block Signal is going in.

And who thought of wrapping all the semaphores round Shrewsbury with massive cylindrical metal safety cages?
I know it's only aesthetics but they look awful compared to the historic clean lines of a semaphore.
Many of them are coming down this year anyway. Seems a huge waste of money.
I'm not aware of any of this happening in other semapahore areas.

I didn't think the Marches was due to re resignalled for a few years yet & Shrewsbury station area isn't due to be done for a long while.

I'm interested to hear more about the reason for the signal works that you mention. Perhaps its just advance preparation work whilst there's folks in the area working on the Shrewsbury - Crewe resignalling.

 

[The Informer]

Jones Bangor is correct about the plans for sidings. Corkscrew lane is unsuitable for large lorries,which would have to climb, then stop on a hill to join the busy Ruabon Rd,
There is no roadway suitable on the other side of the tracks, I also don't see any other road being laid to join the Rhostyllen roundabout.
Rail is the only answer,less traffic,less pollution and dust, also a lorry wash would be mandatory before joining the main road, where would that be put.

Bob,
Think about your post. Why would a lorry need to turn right at the end of corkscrew ln and up bangor rd when it can turn left then 100yds and onto the 483? Its a crafty way out the back of the tip, the road is easy wide enough for lorries and no residents get disturbed. A wheel wash could easily be installed at the site. I'll bet that when they start levelling it those lorries go that way.
I actually drove the route today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't think the Marches was due to re resignalled for a few years yet & Shrewsbury station area isn't due to be done for a long while.

I'm interested to hear more about the reason for the signal works that you mention. Perhaps its just advance preparation work whilst there's folks in the area working on the Shrewsbury - Crewe resignalling.

Shrewsbury is a working museum! NR love showing Severn Bridge Box off and rightly so!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The IBS signals between Abergaveny and Pontrilas should be operational by May - should really help performance and pathing ......

Only taken 10 years to get the scheme in place , ..........

 

[merlodlliw]

Bob,
Think about your post. Why would a lorry need to turn right at the end of corkscrew ln and up bangor rd when it can turn left then 100yds and onto the 483? Its a crafty way out the back of the tip, the road is easy wide enough for lorries and no residents get disturbed. A wheel wash could easily be installed at the site. I'll bet that when they start levelling it those lorries go that way.
I actually drove the route today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---






Shrewsbury is a working museum! NR love showing Severn Bridge Box off and rightly so!

Without checking for once, I meant current traffic would have to travel past the old old pit, down to the stream bridge, then up a climb & halt at the Wrexham Rd 5152, thence turn left & join the A483. I don't consider this road suitable for HGVs,say 80 lorry movements an hour, also this road is used by the Bersham Enterprise Park tenants & it will the access to the Museum. This is of course the only way in/out currently for lorry traffic, one also has to consider traffic use this road to farms at the back of Erddig.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

The IBS signals between Abergaveny and Pontrilas should be operational by May - should really help performance and pathing ......

Only taken 10 years to get the scheme in place , ..........

I saw the concrete base another poster refered to today its barely a mile from Pontrilas right on the England/Wales border on the Newport direction side not even on Llanvihnagel bank - I thought it was suppose to be a northbound blockpost on the bank itself?

 

[Welshman]

And who thought of wrapping all the semaphores round Shrewsbury with massive cylindrical metal safety cages?
I know it's only aesthetics but they look awful compared to the historic clean lines of a semaphore.
Many of them are coming down this year anyway. Seems a huge waste of money.
I'm not aware of any of this happening in other semapahore areas.

On a trip back to Heckington near Sleaford a while back, I noticed the Heckington starter signal in the Sleaford direction, just adjacent the signalbox, has been replaced with a "modern" semaphore signal, complete with the large safety cage you mention.

I suppose it's all to do with the latest H&S requirements, but as you say it looks awful and spoils a good photograph of the station, box and crossing gates.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On a trip back to Heckington near Sleaford a while back, I noticed the Heckington starter signal in the Sleaford direction, just adjacent the signalbox, has been replaced with a "modern" semaphore signal, complete with the large safety cage you mention.

I suppose it's all to do with the latest H&S requirements, but as you say it looks awful and spoils a good photograph of the station, box and crossing gates.

Isn't that the place with the magnificent 8-sail windmill?

It must be H&S as you say but I have only noticed them near Shrewsbury.
The cages go a long way towards Nantwich (being resignalled as we speak), and a little way south of Shrewsbury, but the rest of the Marches semaphores are untouched.
Even the new diddly up starter at Shrewsbury P3 has one.
Other major semaphore areas I can think of which are unchanged are Stirling, Barnetby and Worcester.

On the IBS signals, Gareth is right about the location near Pontrilas, but I didn't spot any other new works - too busy looking at the thousands of new born lambs!

 

[Welshman]

Yes, it is.
Well worth a visit if you happen to be in the area.

 

[Penmorfa]

On a trip back to Heckington near Sleaford a while back, I noticed the Heckington starter signal in the Sleaford direction, just adjacent the signalbox, has been replaced with a "modern" semaphore signal, complete with the large safety cage you mention.

I suppose it's all to do with the latest H&S requirements, but as you say it looks awful and spoils a good photograph of the station, box and crossing gates.

This one?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/5125919082/in/set-72157623902783378
it was there in October 2010 and still is on Google Earth

 

[jones_bangor]

Daily Post was quoting figures of £300m to electrify Chester - Holyhead today, in a general article relating to Barnett cascade as a result of HS2.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...-for-1-9bn-for-wales-railways-55578-30548572/

 

[tbtc]

“Why is the Wales Office and Welsh Government only talking seriously about electrification of the south Wales Valleys Lines when it would cost just £300m to electrify from Chester to Holyhead"

Interesting point.

However electrifying the line (which I support) would probably mean that North Wales services concentrated on Manchester/ London trips and maybe fewer trips from Holyhead to Cardiff?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting point.

However electrifying the line (which I support) would probably mean that North Wales services concentrated on Manchester/ London trips and maybe fewer trips from Holyhead to Cardiff?

Running lots of grotty diesels under the wires will not be looked upon to well in the near future.

 

[tbtc]

Running lots of grotty diesels under the wires will not be looked upon to well in the near future.

That's exactly it.

Electrification changes service patterns (e.g. look at how Hull/ Middlesbrough/ Sunderland lost so many direct London trains on the ECML).

This means that Welsh electrification needs to be taken with the understanding that some direct services will be lost. For example, the failure to announce electrification beyond Cardiff to Swansea (which I'd heard may have been announced on St Davids Day) may mean Abertawe getting a poorer London service.

So wiring from Holyhead to Chester, and then running mainly diesels on the line would be a waste of time - electrification of the North Wales Coast line would see an increase in services to other electrified places but a decrease in other links (such as the Marches line)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Daily Post was quoting figures of £300m to electrify Chester - Holyhead today, in a general article relating to Barnett cascade as a result of HS2.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...-for-1-9bn-for-wales-railways-55578-30548572/

Plaid are very good at spending other people's money.
The £300M might be about right, the question is what return you get for the money.
Spending it on electrifying 2tph short trains and next to no freight seems daft to me.
It must come very low down DfT/NR's list of priorities (in that higher benefits would accrue on many other routes).
That's assuming the money is there in the first place, which it isn't.

This is also "Belgian" politics - where you can only spend money in Flanders if you spend an equal amount in Wollonia.
It might work if the GDP of Wales was similar to that of England, but it isn't.

 

[Welshman]

This one?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/5125919082/in/set-72157623902783378
it was there in October 2010 and still is on Google Earth

Yes - that's the one recently replaced.

 

[jones_bangor]

Plaid are very good at spending other people's money.
The £300M might be about right, the question is what return you get for the money.
Spending it on electrifying 2tph short trains and next to no freight seems daft to me.
It must come very low down DfT/NR's list of priorities (in that higher benefits would accrue on many other routes).
That's assuming the money is there in the first place, which it isn't.

This is also "Belgian" politics - where you can only spend money in Flanders if you spend an equal amount in Wollonia.
It might work if the GDP of Wales was similar to that of England, but it isn't.

I wasn't aware that Plaid had ever had their hands on the purse strings......the figures are derived from the apparently fair Barnett formula?

So your argument about GDP....where does that lead? For example, parts of Wales are now poorer than Eastern Europe....

 

[Rhydgaled]

How many miles of new line would this £1.9bn barnett consequencial buy? Could it, for example, give Wales it's own Y-network (new mainly 90mph lines from near Merthyr Tydfil to the junction near Caersws and from Porthmadog to Bangor, plus reopening of the line between Welshpool and Gobowen via Oswestry)? Alternativly, one a slightly smaller scale, could it be used be build a new Carmarthen - Aberystwyth line (with a new tunnel to cut out the tortorus section just north of the Gwili railway's current terminous and improve journey time)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wasn't aware that Plaid had ever had their hands on the purse strings......the figures are derived from the apparently fair Barnett formula?

So your argument about GDP....where does that lead? For example, parts of Wales are now poorer than Eastern Europe....

Transport (railway infrastructure, at least) is not devolved, so Barnett doesn't come into it.
I don't doubt Wales, North Wales in particular, needs adequate rail investment. The question is what is adequate.
If, say, Plymouth-Penzance was up for electrification, or Perth-Inverness, or west of Swansea, I could understand it.
Routes like MML, Derby-Bristol, Liverpool-Sheffield etc are surely way ahead of Chester-Holyhead in network terms?
In the course of time I would think Chester will be wired from Crewe and Warrington, and Shrewsbury from Wolverhampton, but any further west would be unlikely unless diesel/bi-mode becomes uneconomic at the next rolling-stock change.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Whilst there seems near universal consensus from all quarters in Wales for electrification of the Valleys and to Swansea MP's, AM's, Local Authority's, Network Rail, and even soothing noises from the Welsh Office the funding angle is still the stumbling block. Wales has to fork out something to match shouting at London to fund.

It seems likely Wales will get enhanced European funding for the next round in 2014-2020 many people feel that previous rounds of funding have been wasted in trying to please all sectors and funding lots of worthy but small scale local schemes wit no lasting benefit to the wider economy. A bold and brave choice would be to say that ERDF is Wales's contribution to electrification.

 

[tbtc]

Plaid are very good at spending other people's money.
The £300M might be about right, the question is what return you get for the money.
Spending it on electrifying 2tph short trains and next to no freight seems daft to me.
It must come very low down DfT/NR's list of priorities (in that higher benefits would accrue on many other routes).
That's assuming the money is there in the first place, which it isn't.

This is also "Belgian" politics - where you can only spend money in Flanders if you spend an equal amount in Wollonia.
It might work if the GDP of Wales was similar to that of England, but it isn't.

To confuse it even more there seems to be a north/south equivalent of "Barnett" in Wales, with the minority in the north complaining when money is spent on the larger population in the south.

See the criticism (from the north) when it was announced that Cardiff and Newport were to get electrified trains as part of the GWML wiring.

 

[merlodlliw]

It will be interesting to see what "Valleys Girl" actually does for North Wales.now she is elected to run Plaid, Where IWJ did everything for Anglesey as Plaid Leader, I note an instant reversal with "Valleys Girl" , no doubt the electorate of Anglesey are delighted that she wants to scupper the new power station & loose hundreds of jobs.I wish her well.

Anyhow back to railways, the line Chester to Holyhead will become electrified in years to come, due to lack of diesel, as for the wires what about the voyagers between Crewe & Euston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To confuse it even more there seems to be a north/south equivalent of "Barnett" in Wales, with the minority in the north complaining when money is spent on the larger population in the south.

See the criticism (from the north) when it was announced that Cardiff and Newport were to get electrified trains as part of the GWML wiring.

Being a Gog, there will always be criticism from the North,yes the South has a larger population, North East Wales is number four in conabations, which does seem to get its fair share in my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst there seems near universal consensus from all quarters in Wales for electrification of the Valleys and to Swansea MP's, AM's, Local Authority's, Network Rail, and even soothing noises from the Welsh Office the funding angle is still the stumbling block. Wales has to fork out something to match shouting at London to fund.

It seems likely Wales will get enhanced European funding for the next round in 2014-2020 many people feel that previous rounds of funding have been wasted in trying to please all sectors and funding lots of worthy but small scale local schemes wit no lasting benefit to the wider economy. A bold and brave choice would be to say that ERDF is Wales's contribution to electrification.

Agree with the funding ERDF, to many schemes just chasing after Management Charges, some I agree worthy, but some I have seen in Wrexham,were iffy and returned nothing, some were not even audited.