North Wales Questions

[sprinterguy]

Not refurbished WSMR stock.

The ex-Wrexham and Shropshire set that is at Doncaster of which there is seemingly photographic evidence that power doors have already been fitted is rake AL04. This includes fully W&S refurbished vehicles 10236, 12072 and 12131.

I think that set AL01 is also at Doncaster for power door fitment as well: 12069 out of this rake is also a refurbished ex-W&S vehicle.

I don't know what has become of Chilterns' plans to operate a greater number of loco-hauled sets, but even at present Chiltern have two silver sets to work two diagrams plus the Banbury commuter set performing its' own out and back diagram (AFAIK). There therefore doesn't seem to be much slack in the fleet, so it seems unlikely that any sets would be transferred away to ATW when power door fitted rakes begin to return from Doncaster.

 

[tbtc]

Being a Gog, there will always be criticism from the North,yes the South has a larger population, North East Wales is number four in conabations, which does seem to get its fair share in my opinion

True, Bob, but the gap between:

• Greater Cardiff conurbation
• Greater Newport conurbation
• Greater Swansea conurbation

...and...

• Greater Wrexham conurbation

...is quite big. Its a bit like pointing out that Partick Thistle are the third biggest football team in Glasgow - its undeniably true, but quite a drop down in "size".

 

[jones_bangor]

It will be interesting to see what "Valleys Girl" actually does for North Wales.now she is elected to run Plaid, Where IWJ did everything for Anglesey as Plaid Leader, I note an instant reversal with "Valleys Girl" , no doubt the electorate of Anglesey are delighted that she wants to scupper the new power station & loose hundreds of jobs.I wish her well.

I sense that a big spoonful of pragmatism will be required there, as missing out on that "mini boom" that will come with the construction can't be contemplated - North West Wales is already the poorest part of the UK, and the gap will just get wider.

Anyhow back to railways, the line Chester to Holyhead will become electrified in years to come, due to lack of diesel, as for the wires what about the voyagers between Crewe & Euston.

Voyagers are just going to get more and more (and more) expensive to run as the diesel dries up, I wouldn't bet on them being in service in present form for much longer, at least there appears to be a route to make them electro-diesels.

And if North Wales and South Wales become electric, then the Marches would need to become electric also, leaving Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton as obvious in-fill.
I think the use of European money to fund infrastructure throughout Wales is the way forward - a lasting legacy rather than unsustainable pseudo-private start ups. It's worth remembering that Euston - Holyhead is a truly international rail corridor i.e. the Irish Government need to lobby for this too.

 

[Welshman]

I think the use of European money to fund infrastructure throughout Wales is the way forward - a lasting legacy rather than unsustainable pseudo-private start ups. It's worth remembering that Euston - Holyhead is a truly international rail corridor i.e. the Irish Government need to lobby for this too.

That's a good point - if the A55 road was upgraded and partially funded by EU money, then the railway should be improved too.

 

[merlodlliw]

True, Bob, but the gap between:

• Greater Cardiff conurbation
• Greater Newport conurbation
• Greater Swansea conurbation

...and...

• Greater Wrexham conurbation

...is quite big. Its a bit like pointing out that Partick Thistle are the third biggest football team in Glasgow - its undeniably true, but quite a drop down in "size".

Actually the fourth largest conurbation in Wales, as conurbations go includes three Counties,Wrexham,Flintshire,East Denbighshire.

However The City of Newport is 137K
County of Wrexham 133K

Not a lot of difference.

After last week. Jubilee City of St Asaph population 3,400 will the trains return,I think not

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I sense that a big spoonful of pragmatism will be required there, as missing out on that "mini boom" that will come with the construction can't be contemplated - North West Wales is already the poorest part of the UK, and the gap will just get wider.



Voyagers are just going to get more and more (and more) expensive to run as the diesel dries up, I wouldn't bet on them being in service in present form for much longer, at least there appears to be a route to make them electro-diesels.

And if North Wales and South Wales become electric, then the Marches would need to become electric also, leaving Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton as obvious in-fill.
I think the use of European money to fund infrastructure throughout Wales is the way forward - a lasting legacy rather than unsustainable pseudo-private start ups. It's worth remembering that Euston - Holyhead is a truly international rail corridor i.e. the Irish Government need to lobby for this too.

Yes I agree North West Wales is very poor, it is surprising how many travel to Broughton to work at Airbus, a friend of mine shares lifts with others, they live in Gwynedd, due to no work. The young lady now leading Plaid, should realise her student days are over, a few living on Anglesey would like half her salary & perks.

Now that silly objective principal is gone, we may see some Euro money for North Wales rail that was not allowed into Flintshire & Wrexham previous.
I also agree a lot of Euro money was wasted on silly ideas that would never
pay for themselves when the funding stopped, a few £millionaire consultants come to mind, who had the right connections through marriage and spent a week learning how to become brain surgeons, then pass on their experience at a cost of £thousands a day. Remember ELWA starting, and the CEOs husbands Company became head consultants.
At least she resigned when it was found out.

I agree about Voyagers, diesel time limited

 

[Penmorfa]

Just gazing into my own personal crystal ball for a moment. I foresee Crewe to Chester electrified as part of the new West Coast franchise, with Voyagers becoming bi-mode. An add on electrification scheme from Warrington to Chester, thereby adding Chester to the Trans Pennine network. An even cheaper add-on to that for the Halton curve reopening. Chester to Manchester services going to Northern Rail/Trans Pennine. Arriva Wales remaining a diesel only franchise, possibly Valley lines excepted. Llandudno to Manchester services terminating at Chester or possibly extended to Crewe in place of the Chester - Crewe shuttle. Any violent disagreement to that?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Drawing an artificial line of the map maybe? Through services should be to the primary city destinations in NW England.

 

[Penmorfa]

Drawing an artificial line of the map maybe? Through services should be to the primary city destinations in NW England.

The line on the map would be based on electrification, diesels under the wires will become less and less acceptable.

More looking at English based electrification schemes and increasing Welsh devolution. A similar scenario is likely with Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury electrification. Cambrian services end at Shrewsbury and North Wales - Birmingham services are diverted to Cardiff. With a few exceptions Arriva Wales becomes much more of a Welsh franchise, with funding and investment decided more in Cardiff.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The line on the map would be based on electrification, diesels under the wires will become less and less acceptable.

More looking at English based electrification schemes and increasing Welsh devolution. A similar scenario is likely with Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury electrification. Cambrian services end at Shrewsbury and North Wales - Birmingham services are diverted to Cardiff. With a few exceptions Arriva Wales becomes much more of a Welsh franchise, with funding and investment decided more in Cardiff.

How far do you go with handing English bits back to England, stop the Manchester to Cardiff services at Hereford?
Is there any evidence Cardiff will make better decisions for areas out of Cardiff's commuter zone?
What if Cardiff falls out of love with the railway like the SNP in Scotland? Remember the same week Westminster announced electrification to Cardiff and everyone shouted at them for not going to Swansea Welsh Government signed off road construction contracts on the A465 road more than double the cost of taking the wires to Swansea.

 

[tbtc]

Through services should be to the primary city destinations in NW England.

Try telling that to your politicians though

 

[Penmorfa]

How far do you go with handing English bits back to England, stop the Manchester to Cardiff services at Hereford?
Is there any evidence Cardiff will make better decisions for areas out of Cardiff's commuter zone?
What if Cardiff falls out of love with the railway like the SNP in Scotland? Remember the same week Westminster announced electrification to Cardiff and everyone shouted at them for not going to Swansea Welsh Government signed off road construction contracts on the A465 road more than double the cost of taking the wires to Swansea.

I'm not saying that any of this is desirable or even likely, it's just looking strategically at how electrification schemes and increasing devolution could affect the future.

Manchester to West Wales does'nt neatly fit into any other franchise so would probably remain as is. Another possibility is Cambrian services are diverted to North Wales, rather than Birmingham and the North Wales - Cardiff 2 hourly service remains as is.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Just gazing into my own personal crystal ball for a moment. I foresee Crewe to Chester electrified as part of the new West Coast franchise, with Voyagers becoming bi-mode. An add on electrification scheme from Warrington to Chester, thereby adding Chester to the Trans Pennine network. An even cheaper add-on to that for the Halton curve reopening. Chester to Manchester services going to Northern Rail/Trans Pennine. Arriva Wales remaining a diesel only franchise, possibly Valley lines excepted. Llandudno to Manchester services terminating at Chester or possibly extended to Crewe in place of the Chester - Crewe shuttle. Any violent disagreement to that?

Seems pretty reasonable to me - but I suppose it will depend on how much the ordinary passenger will wish to change trains eg passenger from Llandudno to Manchester can currently get a through service but would have to change at Chester, however passenger from Bangor is required to do that now (of course in days gone by they had through trains) - it depends on how effective the connections are...I do know some people who, despite all the info we get on the trains these days, just hate the thought of having to change!
It is 'unfortunate' that the main route from N to S Wales goes through England but it was ever thus, and the politicians on both sides of the border will have to accept that.

 

[Penmorfa]

Seems pretty reasonable to me - but I suppose it will depend on how much the ordinary passenger will wish to change trains eg passenger from Llandudno to Manchester can currently get a through service but would have to change at Chester, however passenger from Bangor is required to do that now (of course in days gone by they had through trains) - it depends on how effective the connections are...I do know some people who, despite all the info we get on the trains these days, just hate the thought of having to change!
It is 'unfortunate' that the main route from N to S Wales goes through England but it was ever thus, and the politicians on both sides of the border will have to accept that.

I don't think you'll ever get over some peoples fear of changing. I would imagine Chester to Manchester would go to half hourly, one fast to Leeds/York or Sheffield/Doncaster and one all staions to Man Picc as now. Possibly the coast will by then justify 3 trains an hour, say half hourly to Bangor, hourly on to Holyhead. The Holyhead one being express. The other service running to Llandudno. This could be combined with a series of station reopenings, say Queensferry, Connahs Quay, Bagillt, Greenfield for starters?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Regarding Penmorfa's suggestions, personally I think it'd be neater if the hourly ATW Holyhead service ran to Manchester. That, along with the problem of diesel-guzzling Voyagers, could perhaps make the case for north Wales electrification. Shrewsbury - Birmingham would move to an English operator which again might make a case for electrification. With electrification of the GWML and valleys in south Wales, and Mersyrail extension to Wrexham Central from Bidston the Wales franchise would retain the following:

North Wales

• Conwy Valley Line (doubt electrification would be justified, but where would the unit be fueled/maintained? could run under the wires to Holyhead for the night I suppose).
• Electric hourly Holyhead/Llandudno - Manchester service (hence half-hourly Llandudno Junc. - Manchester)

Marches Line

• 3 push-pull loco-hauled diesel Holyhead - Wrexham - Cardiff express services daily
• Hourly diesel service Cardiff - Wrexham - Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury (stopper)
• Hourly Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury service (with a Pwllheli portion in alternate hours), accelerated so the turnround at Shrewsbury is reasonable or extended to Crewe as the stopper in place of the round-about service from Cardiff.
• Hourly Milford/Swansea - Manchester diesel fast service
• Cardiff - Hereford/Abergavenny/Shrewsbury stopping services
• Heart Of Wales Line - 4 all-stops trains, plus a few faster workings to try and aproximate a two-hourly service

South Wales

• Electric ValleyLines services around (and between) Cardiff and Swansea
• Hourly Cardiff - Carmarthen express diesel service (via Swansea District Line), extending to Fishguard every two hours.
• Hourly services from Swansea to Milford Haven, and prefrablly Pembroke Dock too if you can speed it up enough to pass at Tenby

I think that covers everything, you might find that's enough to electrify the marches too though, in which case the Manchesters would need to stop at Swansea for diesel connections to Milford, and the other SDL service from Cardiff would need extending to Milford from Carmarthen so Milford retains a 2-hourly direct Cardiff service.

 

[Penmorfa]

My crystal ball only covers North Wales! Personally I can't see the case for Chester - Holyhead being made any time in the near future. 5 car Voyagers and 2 or 3 car units and no freight don't really cut it. Passenger numbers fall off drastically the further west you go and that's where the expensive bit of electrification is. Chester to Llandudno Jct is a doddle as so many bridges are plate girders, put in for the 4 tracking. They just need lifting for the wires to go under. West of the Junction are some very tight clearances and several tunnels.

I'm trying to view the future in the context of English electrification schemes and increasing Welsh devolution, i.e. Cardiff pays for the wires. So the Conwy valley line and Shotton - Wrexham are non starters.

Diesels under the wires will be a no no. So change at Chester for England, unless you're heading along the Welsh border line to Shrewsbury and Hereford. The only exception being bi-mode Voyagers to London.

 

[tbtc]

IMHO there's a lot of scope for increased capacity in the Chester - Manchester market.

At the moment (unless you want the slow route via Stockport) you have an hourly ATW service between the two cities with a two/three coach DMU that also contains a lot of longer distance passengers on it from North Wales.

Despite the wealth of parts of Chester/ Cheshire and the number of well paid jobs in Manchester, there's no First Class option on this route.

Huge scope for improvement. However, ATW's focus is on the other side of the border, which is why this route seems to be missing out.

 

[jones_bangor]

My crystal ball only covers North Wales! Personally I can't see the case for Chester - Holyhead being made any time in the near future. 5 car Voyagers and 2 or 3 car units and no freight don't really cut it. Passenger numbers fall off drastically the further west you go and that's where the expensive bit of electrification is. Chester to Llandudno Jct is a doddle as so many bridges are plate girders, put in for the 4 tracking. They just need lifting for the wires to go under. West of the Junction are some very tight clearances and several tunnels.

I'm trying to view the future in the context of English electrification schemes and increasing Welsh devolution, i.e. Cardiff pays for the wires. So the Conwy valley line and Shotton - Wrexham are non starters.

Diesels under the wires will be a no no. So change at Chester for England, unless you're heading along the Welsh border line to Shrewsbury and Hereford. The only exception being bi-mode Voyagers to London.

Realistically, I think only European Union support (subsidy?) would make Chester - Holyhead electrification happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IMHO there's a lot of scope for increased capacity in the Chester - Manchester market.

Despite the wealth of parts of Chester/ Cheshire and the number of well paid jobs in Manchester, there's no First Class option on this route.

Huge scope for improvement. However, ATW's focus is on the other side of the border, which is why this route seems to be missing out.

Class 180 perhaps?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Diesels under the wires will be a no no.

I don't see why. It happens everywhere else!

 

[Michael.Y]

I don't see why. It happens everywhere else!

Yep - Virgin and Northern run diesel trains on electrified routes.

These changes won't happen over night. Justifying expenditure on infrastructure is one thing - justifying it on prematurely removing perfectly adequate trains wholesale is another.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The line on the map would be based on electrification, diesels under the wires will become less and less acceptable.

More looking at English based electrification schemes and increasing Welsh devolution. A similar scenario is likely with Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury electrification. Cambrian services end at Shrewsbury and North Wales - Birmingham services are diverted to Cardiff. With a few exceptions Arriva Wales becomes much more of a Welsh franchise, with funding and investment decided more in Cardiff.

I agree with your ideas for service development, but I don't think there will be much extra devolution if the DfT Rail Review is anything to go by.
Fair enough for the Valleys (a PTE operation really) and local lines, but DfT say they will continue to control cross-border services.
People forget WC, EC, XC and TP north of the border remain controlled/funded by DfT and not by Holyrood.
The same applies to Wales (though WG might manage day-to-day affairs as now for ATW).
The document is a bit vague as the one example given is GW to Swansea, but logically "cross-border" includes Birmingham-Cambrian/N Wales, Manchester-North/South Wales and West Coast services.
After that there isn't much left for a "really Welsh" franchise.
My guess is it will continue much as now.
The next big thing will be Wales & Borders franchise renewal in 2018.

I agree with Gareth about services to English cities (as well as to SE Wales).
It's where the jobs are.

 

[transmanche]

Huge scope for improvement. However, ATW's focus is on the other side of the border, which is why this route seems to be missing out.

Manchester-Chester gets ATW's newest (and IMHO best) trains. Adding first class to this route would be interesting, although I suspect that might happen post-Northern Hub; if there is a trans-pennine service to Chester, giving 2tph between the cities.

 

[tbtc]

Manchester-Chester gets ATW's newest (and IMHO best) trains. Adding first class to this route would be interesting, although I suspect that might happen post-Northern Hub; if there is a trans-pennine service to Chester, giving 2tph between the cities.

True; it's retained the 175s that it got in FNW days.

But its also retained its hourly frequency (whilst other ATW routes have had timetable improvements and Northern have improved the frequencies of other routes in north west England).

 

[Michael.Y]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-17437506

 

[jones_bangor]

I like the bit:

"The scheme will also mean improved journey times between Gobowen and Shrewsbury with an increase in line speed up to 90 mph, at a further cost of £9.8m."

Despite my questions / suggestions about other routes, in its entirety, this will be a good thing for all.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lets hope they do something like speed ups schedules or run more trains/ reopen stations the official announcement of the Cambrian infrastructure spend was Aug 07 the loops are in rusting and not a single minutes change to the existing schedule has happened.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can't see the word "approved" anywhere, and there is no link to an announcement on the Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury upgrade.
Is it just more wishful thinking?

 

[merlodlliw]

It is confirmed by WCBC , the ring fenced money is to be used, note 2015 is the next year for WG elections, the two Ministers at each end of the track will make good capital of it.

Excellent news for our campaign and all our supporters,our long fight is won

My contact in the media tells me WG put out the press release, it will appear in the two daily regional newspapers that circulate in Wrexham today


Bob

 

[lewisb]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-17437506

Very exciting stuff me thinks.....

 

[cle]

Does that mean the whole line between Shrewsbury and Chester will be double tracked now?

 

[Penmorfa]

Does that mean the whole line between Shrewsbury and Chester will be double tracked now?

No, there will still be about 2 miles on Gresford bank and over the A483 bridge remaining single. With modern signalling this should'nt be more than a minor irritance.