North Wales Questions

[PHILIPE]

Something needs to be done to get rid of the 57s after Wednesdays fiasco,I am still at a loss to understand why a sprinter was used as replacement,I appreciate panic etc by station staff , why was the 175 WAG 2 stock not mobilised & cancel is slot 6.20 which few use to Holyhead.But then Wag Ex1 is a local to Abergavenny as it replaces a DMU path so a sprinter is OK to Abergavenny,


The entire timings/routes/contingency need sorting.

As for your theory, I dont see any change until Dec 12, I can not believe the DVT/67 will go via Wrexham until then, it would be complete farce to run it at similar timings as now,and it should run on Saturdays, but that's another question on funding.
Bob(/QUOTE)

The 150 may have been handy to access rather than the 175 for WAG2 which could easily have been blocked in at Canton. It may not even have been there as they had been stepping up all day, i.e xx18x arrivals at Cardiff returning to Holyhead at XX21 the same hour. The one which arrived on WAG2 might have been far away by then.



]

 

[Gareth Marston]

Oh, Absolutely, don't get me wrong, I certainly wasn't suggesting that it should have closed (the 1970's was the period when I used the line frequently going to Aber, and I remember talking to staff who told me how BR manipulated the passenger figures to support closure)...but of course, as we know other 'loss-making' lines were closed or downgraded, replacement bus services were subsequently withdrawn or reduced and this caused hardship to communities also...in the end it does become a matter of how much of a subsidy we are willing to pay, doesn't it?

It was a rare example when the only reason that would stop a closure- hardship was actually proven usually the replacement bus was deemed wonderful even if it was withdrawn shortly afterward. The clinching moment was when the bus bods admitted a bridge that their replacement buses were going to go over according to BR was too weak for the buses to be allowed over it.

I'd say were paying more subsidy now. The subsidy to rural lines is lot more easier to fund if the railway as a whole is efficient.

 

[xtradj]

you can go Llan Junction to Euston?

 

[Michael.Y]

you can go Llan Junction to Euston?

Yep - for example there are 4 direct services tomorrow:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C56051/2012/3/10

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C56070/2012/3/10

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C56083/2012/3/10

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C56164/2012/3/10
(Pendolino + 57)

Plus numerous services to Crewe, Chester and Brum.

 

[merlodlliw]

you can go Llan Junction to Euston?

Perhaps I have missed the point, but why have you stated the above







The 150 may have been handy to access rather than the 175 for WAG2 which could easily have been blocked in at Canton. It may not even have been there as they had been stepping up all day, i.e xx18x arrivals at Cardiff returning to Holyhead at XX21 the same hour. The one which arrived on WAG2 might have been far away by then. quote


I have been informed the 175 that arrived from Holyhead as WAG2 was parked up at Canton, for its six hour rest on Wednesday.Yes it may well have been blocked in.

The whole episode is farce, ATW only run one loco hauled service which is according to staff, totally unreliable & prone to fail, yet this is supposed to be the flagship service

 

[jones_bangor]

The whole episode is farce, ATW only run one loco hauled service which is according to staff, totally unreliable & prone to fail, yet this is supposed to be the flagship service

The 57s must only have a few weeks left, the 67s can't come soon enough!!

 

[merlodlliw]

The 57s must only have a few weeks left, the 67s can't come soon enough!!

I agree with you,

 

[SprinterMan]

From an enthusiast's point of view, what do people prefer?
57s or 67s?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The 57s must only have a few weeks left, the 67s can't come soon enough!!

Has there been a common fault amongst the 57's? Don't know much about it but I thought that they were re-engined only about 10 years ago? Have the faults been with non-engine related bits? - or are they just well past their 'use by' dates?
I recall that Merlodlliw has often mentioned that the crews don't like them

....after all, most of the units in use in Wales (apart from 175's obviously) are well over 20 years old and haven't been re-engined - or have I missed something?
.

 

[Penmorfa]

The whole episode is farce, ATW only run one loco hauled service which is according to staff, totally unreliable & prone to fail, yet this is supposed to be the flagship service

Your hatred of this train seems to get ever more extreme. The train is not 'totally unreliable and prone to fail'. I see the down working most evenings and it is generally on or about time. If you find this hard to believe why don't you join one of the Yahoo gen groups where its running is reported regularly? Or if you like I could post this information on this thread each day, however I would'nt like the facts to get in the way of a good rant.

 

[Rhydgaled]

From an enthusiast's point of view, what do people prefer? 57s or 67s?

57s for me, much nicer looking locos. Unfortunatly though no diesel locomotive (other than the buffer-fitted class 43s that were used as DVTs when the class 91s were introduced) has ever had DVT-compatible TDM (and the DBSO's TDM is apparently the same as the DVT's now, which it wasn't when working with 47/7s), which means to get useful diesel LHCS you have to modify either locos or DVTs. It just so happens that modifying DVTs to work with 67s has been the option selected by anyone wanting useful diesel LHCS, so sadly 67s for the WAG express (via Wrexham) it has to be. If the train is to continue going via Crewe, then I'd much rather they keep the 57s (with major reliability improvments), but it should really be going via Wrexham.

Has there been a common fault amongst the 57's? Don't know much about it but I thought that they were re-engined only about 10 years ago? Have the faults been with non-engine related bits? - or are they just well past their 'use by' dates?

I'd be interested to know that two. Certainly if they can't find a single working loco out of a fleet of 4 (plus the Virgin liveried ones which take over when there's a shortage of ATW-liveried examples) then their reliablity is certainly poor. Is it just they aren't being properly maintained given the 67s were supposed to have taken over by now? I did read on here in the past though that the 'new' components (engines and other stuff) they recived weren't really new at all but refurbished components from other types of loco, so maybe it's time they re-engined them with brand new engines and other components (add TDM while you're at it and refurbish some of the stored LHCS stock and you have a really useful fleet, for example one could replace the 90 on the Pretendolino or the 91 on a IC225 set for off-wire charters/diversions/north of Edinbrough on East Coast services).

 

[merlodlliw]

Your hatred of this train seems to get ever more extreme. The train is not 'totally unreliable and prone to fail'. I see the down working most evenings and it is generally on or about time. If you find this hard to believe why don't you join one of the Yahoo gen groups where its running is reported regularly? Or if you like I could post this information on this thread each day, however I would'nt like the facts to get in the way of a good rant.

Hatred is a bit steep,I dislike the Premier Class,which is under used and there is no requirement for it, all that is required is a buffet service.
ATW drivers who I speak to dislike the 57, it is a fact, due to 57 problems,two runs last week were DMU replacements and Tue/Wed ./Thur the down was late.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has there been a common fault amongst the 57's? Don't know much about it but I thought that they were re-engined only about 10 years ago? Have the faults been with non-engine related bits? - or are they just well past their 'use by' dates?
I recall that Merlodlliw has often mentioned that the crews don't like them

....after all, most of the units in use in Wales (apart from 175's obviously) are well over 20 years old and haven't been re-engined - or have I missed something?
.

TDK would know more about this, but a member of ATW staff told me that the 57 on the WAG run is never switched off between Sunday Evening and Friday evening at Holyhead due to foreseen starting up problems,others on this site confirm it is left ticking over all night.

 

[Squaddie]

Hatred is a bit steep,I dislike the Premier Class,which is under used and there is no requirement for it, all that is required is a buffet service.

The impression gained from this forum is that you detest this service with a passion, greatly resent its very existence and miss no opportunity to post negative comments about it, whatever the subject of the thread and regardless of whether the comments are fair or even true. You even started a new thread this week because the train was late (which is hardly an uncommon occurrence on the UK's railways). It seems to be an obsession.

 

[jones_bangor]

Hatred is a bit steep,I dislike the Premier Class,which is under used and there is no requirement for it, all that is required is a buffet service.

Do you think all Restaurant cars / buffet counters should be replaced with a trolley?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Do you think all Restaurant cars / buffet counters should be replaced with a trolley?

Read what he said, he said a buffet service IS required. From the post you quoted, it sounds like that the thing he doesn't like is the first class provision. From what I remember of what he's said in the past though I think he dislikes the fanciness of the meals (meals that fancy require an expensive chef) and the inclusion of said meals in the first class ticket price.

 

[Michael.Y]

If you get over the fact it's a piece of political puffery introduced by a Plaid Cymru minister to run a fast 1st Class Service from his constituency to Cardiff where the Assembly is, and accept that it DOES exist, it IS occurring, and it IS being used, then that's half the battle. Certain circumstances dictate it must run when it does, on the route it does at present. A modernisation programme to allow it to become pushpull and run via Wrexham is underway, and is within touching distance of being delivered. Maybe then, once it is running on the same routes as the normal N/S service, it can be jiggled around in the timetable to make it more economically viable and more usage of the stock can be delivered in the future - for example an afternoon Manchester run or a Sunday tourist/student run? Not to mention future ruggex and footexs.

 

[Squaddie]

Maybe then, once it is running on the same routes as the normal N/S service, it can be jiggled around in the timetable to make it more economically viable and more usage of the stock can be delivered in the future - for example an afternoon Manchester run or a Sunday tourist/student run? Not to mention future ruggex and footexs.

Let's not get carried away... we don't want the only decent train in Wales being used to transport sports fans.

 

[Michael.Y]

Let's not get carried away... we don't want the only decent train in Wales being used to transport sports fans.

Why not? We're passengers too. Tell that to the poor 5-year old kid going to his first international yesterday who had to stand in baking hot tube-train like conditions in a doorway on a cramped crowded 175 yesterday afternoon. I think he's as just as entitled to a MK3 table seat as the business folk.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why not? We're passengers too. Tell that to the poor 5-year old kid going to his first international yesterday who had to stand in baking hot tube-train like conditions in a doorway on a cramped crowded 175 yesterday afternoon. I think he's as just as entitled to a MK3 table seat as the business folk.

The standard carriages of the WAG Ex1, were used yesterday for the Rugby International, although unadvertised in the North. I am not aware of any damage caused to this train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you think all Restaurant cars / buffet counters should be replaced with a trolley?

ATW only run one restaurant car which is underused, all that needs retaining is the Buffet Counter which as you will be aware is where the demand is.
I never said get rid of the buffet counter.

 

[jones_bangor]

ATW only run one restaurant car which is underused, all that needs retaining is the Buffet Counter which as you will be aware is where the demand is.
I never said get rid of the buffet counter.

Part of the issue is that the Restaurant First service is underused. Customers are probably reluctant to buy a First ticket if they're not sure of making the only train that day. It will be interesting to see if patronage increases once WAG 2 is fully up to Mk3 push-pull spec.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you get over the fact it's a piece of political puffery introduced by a Plaid Cymru minister to run a fast 1st Class Service from his constituency to Cardiff where the Assembly is, and accept that it DOES exist, it IS occurring, and it IS being used, then that's half the battle.

The service was not introduced for the benefit of just his constituency, that's just speculative nonsense. The improvements were part of the "One Wales" coalition document, much hated by the Tory voting foaming at the mouth anti-devolution rabble.

It's also interesting that WG is looking to increase the capacity of this service and the intra-Wales air service, even though that IWJ is no longer in power......

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has there been a common fault amongst the 57's? Don't know much about it but I thought that they were re-engined only about 10 years ago? Have the faults been with non-engine related bits? - or are they just well past their 'use by' dates?
I recall that Merlodlliw has often mentioned that the crews don't like them

Class 57s were briefly a good idea when there was a shortage of modern passenger locos.
Operators were not keen to buy new ones for a limited life, and so opted to fund a low-cost 47 upgrade which gave us the 57.
The 67s, which would have been ideal as new passenger locos, were purchased for the EWS Royal Mail contract at about the same time.

However, in a reversal all too common in the rail industry, the loco-hauled Mail contract vanished onto the roads and the 67s became surplus.
If things had happened in a different order we would never have had 57s (or maybe 67s either).
As I understand it, the only essential property of a 57 is that the 16 Virgin versions (with modified couplers) can haul a Pendolino which is necessary for off-the-wires working.
But with the completion of WCRM Virgin only need a handful now, so most of the class is redundant.
I should think VT (or whoever wins the WC franchise) will need a new Pendolino solution for the long term, as it's inconceivable the 57s will last another 15 years.

ATW must have got access to the sub-fleet of VT 57s on a cheaper-than-cheap deal, as there was no other work for them.
I imagine 67s are more expensive to operate (despite otherwise being idle) and probably have higher access charges.
So the costs of the WAG operation will go up, to the apoplexy of some on here!
The 57s are owned by Porterbrook, and the 67s by Angel.
Be interesting to know if they have ever made any money out of either fleet.

 

[merlodlliw]

Part of the issue is that the Restaurant First service is underused. Customers are probably reluctant to buy a First ticket if they're not sure of making the only train that day. It will be interesting to see if patronage increases once WAG 2 is fully up to Mk3 push-pull spec.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The service was not introduced for the benefit of just his constituency, that's just speculative nonsense. The improvements were part of the "One Wales" coalition document, much hated by the Tory voting foaming at the mouth anti-devolution rabble.

It's also interesting that WG is looking to increase the capacity of this service and the intra-Wales air service, even though that IWJ is no longer in power......

Has for the first class service,which all who travel on Gerald know is well underused, you may well be correct in your theory, but economies by travellers also have a big say in this,has the majority I find travelling on Gerald are from the public sector & use standard.

Has for speculative nonsense,well that's your opinion, certainly not mine or a few others on this thread.

Has for the Air Service,we shall see if it carries on, but it was IWJ who signed off the four year contract for WAGAIR when he was in power, no one else.

Interesting times.

One thing I think we both agree on, the sooner the 57s are scrapped the better, I recall Andy Hamilton CEO of W/S, a real rail professional, telling us in Wrexham,when asked why the 67 was to be used on W/S and not the 57, his words "I would not touch them with a barge pole" too unreliable

 

[The Informer]

The standard carriages of the WAG Ex1, were used yesterday for the Rugby International, although unadvertised in the North. I am not aware of any damage caused to this train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW only run one restaurant car which is underused, all that needs retaining is the Buffet Counter which as you will be aware is where the demand is.
I never said get rid of the buffet counter.

Why would rugby fans damage a train anyway? They aint hooligans!

 

[merlodlliw]

Why would rugby fans damage a train anyway? They aint hooligans!

The implication was from a previous thread,

"we don't want the only decent train in Wales being used to transport sports fans."


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

Has for the Air Service,we shall see if it carries on, but it was IWJ who signed off the four year contract for WAGAIR when he was in power, no one else.

I think I've already shared my thoughts on WAGAIR being an indirect subsidy for a certain airport in South Wales.

 

[merlodlliw]

good article in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

with pics of Bersham tip area

Plus Down the Coast - with Garry Stroud and many more articles & pics

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think I've already shared my thoughts on WAGAIR being an indirect subsidy for a certain airport in South Wales.

Do you think that's why Ieaun Air survived the transport plan review then, given that certain posters on this fourm have stated very few AMs actually support Ieaun Air?

 

[jones_bangor]

Do you think that's why Ieaun Air survived the transport plan review then, given that certain posters on this fourm have stated very few AMs actually support Ieaun Air?

For Welsh Government to scrap a scheduled flight out of Cardiff Airport would hardly be seen as supportive (even if it's more Cesna than 747). N.B. Although I've never used the service, I've now et some members of the public (not politicians) who have used it, and were very complimentary.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

good article in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

with pics of Bersham tip area

The rail sidings / rail transport mentioned at Bersham were certainly part of the original planning application.

 

[merlodlliw]

For Welsh Government to scrap a scheduled flight out of Cardiff Airport would hardly be seen as supportive (even if it's more Cesna than 747). N.B. Although I've never used the service, I've now et some members of the public (not politicians) who have used it, and were very complimentary.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The rail sidings / rail transport mentioned at Bersham were certainly part of the original planning application.

If I recall, this was one of the strong points,as WCBC let it be known, no way would they allow thousands of extra lorry loads onto the Wrexham by pass.

In my opinion CADW, wanting the tip to remain as an ancient monument, was one of their silly season thoughts, Good for the NUM and others pouring cold water on this idea, a coal spoil tip an ancient monument indeed.

 

[Squaddie]

In my opinion CADW, wanting the tip to remain as an ancient monument, was one of their silly season thoughts, Good for the NUM and others pouring cold water on this idea, a coal spoil tip an ancient monument indeed.

Cadw did not propose that the tip should be an ancient monument - that would clearly be nonsense - but a historic monument, a reminder of the area's industrial heritage. The tip is just about the last remaining sign of centuries of mining in that corner of Wales.

Even though permission to remove most of the tip has now been given, against the wishes of many local residents, the remaining colliery headgear is a legally-protected Scheduled Ancient Monument in the care of Wrexham County Borough Council and Bersham Colliery Trust.